thesometimesaint Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I think it is a good idea. Link to comment
Senator Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I think it is a good idea.I do too.If I was a bettin man, I would wager that we will see church built, owned and operated nursing homes, or at least assisted living centers.Curtail the building of some of the expensive chapels, and build these instead. With tithes, not just fast offerings.But what do I know? Link to comment
BCSpace Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The Salt Lake Tribune has a story today on this shift. Now included in the LDS Church mission ismission is: "Care for the Poor and Needy."Well yes. This is in opposition to socialism and the welfare state which doctrinally the Church is in opposition to. It's interesting to note that a woman in the article bemoans the fact that there will be no change in public policy in an LDS dominated area. She of course does not understand the spiritual principles involved here. She and those of like mind are like the apostate Jews of Christ's time; looking for a political kingdom and missing the message (in this case) that it is we as individuals who should be getting our hands dirty and making sacrifices instead of the government doing it for us, thereby taking away our agency and personal responsibility and putting us into slavery. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Senator:They're not all that expensive on a square foot basis. We build Ward buildings as membership grows. At this time I don't see a big need to separately build nursing/assisted living facilities. Our families are encouraged to take care of their own as far a possible. I moved my mom in with us till her death. The kids, and Grandkids loved it. Link to comment
frankenstein Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 government doing it for us, thereby taking away our agency and personal responsibility and putting us into slaveryyou always have your agency, there is nothing in this life nor the government can do to take agency away from.I take you agree that God has commanded us to take care of our neighbor, our neighbor being anyone we may every encounter. Failure to follow this command has consequence.Lets say the Government enacts "socialism" type policies, failure to follow those policies has consequences.So which of the two God or the Gov. is taking away agency? Also, consider what God said:Section 5821 Let no man break the alaws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. 22 Wherefore, be a<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/58/22a" mark="a" type="C" title="Rom. 13: 1 (1-7); TG Governments; TG Submissiveness.">subject to the powers that be, buntil he reigns whose right it is to reign...You are commanded to follow the law of the land. Your personal accountability is to follow the law of the land. So how is a policy of socialized anything going to take away your agency or personal responsibility to God? Link to comment
Mortal Man Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 you always have your agency, there is nothing in this life nor the government can do to take agency away from.frankenstein is right; no government on Earth has ever restricted anyone's freedom.My vote goes to whoever promises me the most benefits. Link to comment
frankenstein Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 you always have your agency to choose one way or the other. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 http://i.imgur.com/5RkJK.png Link to comment
katherine the great Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I moved my mom in with us till her death. The kids, and Grandkids loved it.As I plan on doing with my mom some day. That is, of course, the ideal. However, many people, through no fault of their own, do not have children or at least children who will take care of them when they are old. Some people's medical needs also overwhelm their children's capacity to care for them properly. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 KtG:I agree. If I became unable to take care of her. We both agreed the best place for her was in a nursing home. Thankfully I was able to do it, and she enjoyed the last years of her life in the company of her family. My mom was a very pragmatic person. Some of it wore off onto her kids. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I like the change. One could also argue that a perfected Saint will preach the Gospel and Redeem the Dead, so the other two missions were redundant, which is why the shift to "purposes," I feel adds greater clarity.Not long after President Kimball defined "the three-fold mission of the Church," the concept was refined to say the mission of the Church is to invite all to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him. The three elements were then identified as aspects of this over-arching mission. I'm not sure how "helping the poor and the needy" fits into this concept, except that helping the poor and needy is part of being a perfected saint, but, as you point out, so are the other two. Perhaps it will all become clearer as the new handbook is introduced. Link to comment
notHagoth7 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 On another note, isn't this really the government's job? I mean, how can you expect a relatively minuscule organization to accomplish the massive redistribution of wealth that this worthy goal requires?You're making a few assumptions here.It will continue to be a catalyst. An increasingly influential one. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Why do you think, we have the changes?Because we (LDS) are forgetting to serve those around us? or because There is going to be an increase of poor and needy, in the years to come?Personally I think for both reasons. To remind us to serve our neighbours and communities and because of a greater need in years to come.I don't know that there's anything to be read into this other than the fact that President Monson has long focused on helping the poor and the needy, and now, as president of the Church, he's in a position to put some clout behind it.President Benson championed the Book of Mormon long before he became president of the Church.The first time President Hinckley challenged members to read the Book of Mormon by a certain deadline was years before he became president of the Church. He did the same thing during his presidency, but it was only then that his challenge caught on.To use Teddy Roosevelt's term, the office of president of the Church is something of a bully pulpit. Link to comment
daz2 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 "The three elements were then identified as aspects of this over-arching mission. I'm not sure how 'helping the poor and the needy' fits into this concept, except that helping the poor and needy is part of being a perfected saint, but, as you point out, so are the other two."The way I see it, helping the poor and the needy fits in this way. Helping the poor and needy is just as much a prerequisite for exaltation as are the ordinances. See Matthew 25:31-46. By stating this as a fundamental purpose of the Church, as distinct for solely an individual opportunity and responsibility, the Brethren have, by inspiration, concluded that as a faith community God has offered us, and expects us to, use the priesthood and other resources of the Church to reach out to all God's children. And to reach out to them not just by preaching the gospel and crying repentance, but by helping those in need. Link to comment
cinepro Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I think it would be great thing for LDS to become well known for our service to the poor. Link to comment
katherine the great Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 We don't really need to look any further than the life of the Savior to see why this should be emphasized. He always tended to the people's physical needs as a part of his ministry. It doesn't only strengthen the person giving the service, it strengthens the recipient as well. I looked out my window the other day and saw the missionaries shoveling my neighbor's driveway. Of course I got all teary eyed because it made me think of my own missionary son somewhere in the mountains of Mexico doing service for the people of his area. It really goes hand in hand with sharing the gospel. As someone else stated on this thread: It is pure religion. Link to comment
DanGB Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 My father had a saying that I was raised with: "God helps those who help themselves". It has become more apparent over the years and since his passing that he was spot on!And I think helping those in need is a great mission standard for the Church, even when we've been doing it before. It will also, ImHO, be a far greater missionary tool for the Chrch than sending out our young for two years. I think we are just copying and promoting what the Catholic church has mastered for decades if not longer.I do believe for the longest time the Church charitable focus was primarily on/with//or for members. But over the last decade or so I think we've done a better job at getting out in the media for the volunteer efforts f aid and comfort to non members and communities in general. I think from a pactical standpont the Church has begun to see the value in this and t is very smart on doing so. I personally believe it will be more successful in it's missonary efforts this way than with all the biking missionaries it can put out. It jar gives the Church a much more "identifiable and comfort face" than the existing "guys in white shirts" image!From a business perspective, I believe charitable efforts are far more efficient in missionary efforts than pedalling. But there may be combined efficiencies! Link to comment
sweetpotatoh Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 So now we are suppose to vote Democrat? Seriously though, I think that this is a great change. Link to comment
Mortal Man Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 It will continue to be a catalyst. An increasingly influential one.Aha! So the real motivation behind this "poor and needy" business slips out! The Mormon church is, in fact, engaged in an act of sedition against the government. By encouraging its members to care for the less fortunate, the church is robbing virtuous humanitarian leaders, like Rod Blagojevich and John Edwards, of their rightful constituency. It is an immutable law of nature that all good things come solely from our great and glorious federal government; to say otherwise is both heresy and treason. I can't see how the church will get away with this.(okay, I had to put this one over the top since no one noticed the sarcasm in my earlier posts, which is really disturbing.) Link to comment
jkfrost Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 He is not the first who has warned his people in trying times such as these:Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.Mosiah 4:[14] And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness.[15] But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.[16] And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.[17] Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just --[18] But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.[19] For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?[20] And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.[21] And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.[22] And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.[23] I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.[24] And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.[25] And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.[26] And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you -- that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God -- I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.[27] And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.[28] And I would that ye should remember, that whosoever among you borroweth of his neighbor should return the thing that he borroweth, according as he doth agree, or else thou shalt commit sin; and perhaps thou shalt cause thy neighbor to commit sin also.[29] And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.[30] But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not. Alma 4:[6] And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.[7] Now this was the cause of much affliction to Alma, yea, and to many of the people whom Alma had consecrated to be teachers, and priests, and elders over the church; yea, many of them were sorely grieved for the wickedness which they saw had begun to be among their people.[8] For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began to be lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and to set their hearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world, that they began to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.[9] And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.[10] And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.[11] And it came to pass in the commencement of the ninth year Alma saw the wickedness of the church, and he saw also that the example of the church began to lead those who were unbelievers on from one piece of iniquity to another, thus bringing on the destruction of the people.[12] Yea, he saw great inequality among the people, some lifting themselves up with their pride, despising others, turning their backs upon the needy and the naked and those who were hungry, and those who were athirst, and those who were sick and afflicted.[13] Now this was a great cause for lamentations among the people, while others were abasing themselves, succoring those who stood in need of their succor, such as imparting their substance to the poor and the needy, feeding the hungry, and suffering all manner of afflictions, for Christ's sake, who should come according to the spirit of prophecy;[14] Looking forward to that day, thus retaining a remission of their sins; being filled with great joy because of the resurrection of the dead, according to the will and power and deliverance of Jesus Christ from the bands of death. Alma 34:[28] And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye turn away the needy, and the naked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need -- I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith.Remember what Pres Hinckley said in 1998:To the Boys and to the Men Link to comment
Jeff K. Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Since nothing was taken away, is it some much a change as a magnification of one aspect? Link to comment
Calm Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The change itself is HUGE news for members of the faith. Where have you seen evidence of this that LDS perceive it as "HUGE news"? It seems to me just to be making something explicit that's always been there implicitly.I've always assume that this was including in "Perfecting the Saints" (not only in helping with our own, but also ourselves through loving all our neighbours. Certainly there has always been a great deal of our service projects devoted to the general population, not only LDS. Link to comment
jadams_4242 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Interesting and I wonder if it's because they see what's coming down the road when there will be even more poor and needy, especially among the elderly as Medicare continues to get cut. Actually medicare is being expanded to help even more; which is truely the christian way; Link to comment
Jeff K. Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I have never known government robbery to be a christian way.Usually its the gaddianton way. Link to comment
jadams_4242 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I have never known government robbery to be a christian way.Usually its the gaddianton way. When the church helps those in need, its Gods word; when the government does it; its robbery? Link to comment
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