Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Mormon critics such as Leff Lindsay have argued that the 2008 Stanford University word-print study was "rigged for Rigdon," and set up in such a way that some Book of Mormon chapters would appear to have a probable Sidney Rigdon authorship -- while other chapters would appear to have a probable Solomon Spalding authorship.If this is truly the way in which Jockers, Criddle and Witten crafted their 2008 computerized analysis, they did not do a very thorough job in fabricating the Solomon Spalding "voice" in their word-print study results. According to my own textual spot-checking, that is.In the last 1/3 of the book of Alma, the Jockers team evidently missed "rigging" for Spalding their study results for chapter 55. Here my own inspection of the 1830 Book of Mormon text shows a relatively poor correlation with Solomon Spalding's phraseology. While an average page of Alma exhibits between nine and ten significant shared word-strings with Spalding's writings, pages for Alma chapter 55 display considerably less than that average, with two-thirds of those pages dipping down as low as seven.So, when the Stanford team attributed this chapter's authorship to Solomon Spalding, they obviously did not craft their "rigging" very carefully:http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/phrchrt2.gifExamples of even worse correlation with Spalding's phraseology and vocabulary can be seen when we chart out the text for Mosiah and Ether in the 1830 Book of Mormon:http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/phrchrtM2.gifhttp://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/phrchrtE2.gifThe Stanford team attribute Mosiah chapter 8 to Spalding's authorship -- but my own inspection of that chapter shows that its shared phraseology with Spalding dips far below the average 9.2 significant word-strings per page, while its shared vocabulary with Spalding registers far below the average of 93.3 % exhibited on the average Mosiah page.Likewise the Stanford team attributes Ether chapter 1 to Spalding's pen -- but two of its pages are below average on phraseology overlap and one of its pages is below average on shared vocabulary with Spalding.But I've saved the worst examples for the last. In the 1830 Book of Alma text, many, many of the pages that the Stanford team attribute to Spalding's authorship fall far short of the average 9.3 shared significant word-strings for Alma's text, in general:http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/phrchrtA2.gifTo sum up -- While the Stanford team may have indeed "rigged" their word-print results to show a high authorship probability for Sidney Rigdon in some parts of our Book of Mormon (I've never checked for Rigdon's language), their "rigging" for matches with Solomon Spalding's demonstrated use of language came out rather imperfect.Perhaps they need to tweak their computer programs, to turn out a better set of matches with Spalding's use of language, as discernible in this master chart of his shared phraseology in the 1830 Mosiah, Alma and Ether: http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/phrchrt3.gifUncle Dale. Link to comment
jkfrost Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I guess that Joseph Smith was not the author of the BOM after all.It was Rigdon that plagiarized it - or was it Solomon Spalding?It was Parley Pratt who introduced Rigdon to the LDS faith BTW...Parley taught his former religious mentor, Sidney Rigdon. ...within weeks, Rigdon and more than 100 others in the region had converted. Link to comment
William Schryver Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Fret not. Jeff Lindsay's criticisms will soon be the least of your worries.To me, the astounding thing is that, in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, there are actually still people--ostensibly "in the know" about Mormon historical matters--who are capable of believing even in the thesis of a Spaulding/Rigdon nexus for Book of Mormon authorship, let alone its fact.Alas, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest ... Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 I guess that Joseph Smith was not the author of the BOM after all....Well, note that I only "spot-checked" Mosiah, Alma and Ether.The latest (unpublished) Jockers reporting credits Joseph Smith as the writer of Mosiah 13, as well as Alma 20, 29, 37, 38 and 41:http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/phrchrt3.gifI'll not summarize here the Stanford team's recent findings for Smith's contributions to 1Nephi, 2Nephi, Jacob, Helaman, etc.Those 2009 computer study results remain preliminary, provisional and unpublished.Of course the LDS scholars will doubtless dispute Jockers' choice of Joseph Smith base-texts, from which to derive his "word-print."This is exactly why the Stanford team DID NOT include any mapping of Smith's "voice" in their 2008 reporting.As I understand it, this more recent round of computer analysis (generalized in the color-coded chapter divisions atop my chart) included a Smith "word-print" based primarily upon the texts of his handwritten letters to Emma. Even with all of those documents added together, the base-text for this recently derived "word-print" for Smith is evidently too short to be relied upon.Until the LDS scholars make available a verified base-text for deriving a Joseph Smith word-print, I suppose things are at a standstill, as far as our talking about any Smith BoM authorship.But, IIRC, Louis Midgely suggested in the "Common Consent" blog, that we simply make use of several thousand contiguous words from "History of the Church," or some other Joseph Smith book. What do the LDS textual scholars have to say about such suggestions?UD. Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Dale, why do you believe Orson Pratt's 1879 chapter divisions have any relevance on authorship that is said to have taken place 50+ years earlier? Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Until the LDS scholars make available a verified base-text for deriving a Joseph Smith word-print, I suppose things are at a standstill, as far as our talking about any Smith BoM authorship.Remind me of the requirements for a usable "base text." Also, can you explain why anyone should take the relative probability of these results seriously in light of the lack of supporting historical evidence? Link to comment
Arc Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 UD,Thanks for an knowledgeable and independent assessment. Spaulding/Rigdon authorship contributions to the BoM have always been of interest to me, and it is nice to see yet more objective data on the subject.We keep hearing the overoptimistic predictions of apologists that new and game-changing data and findings are just around the corner on a number of issues that are controversial (at least to apologists). These generally turn out to be tangled re-syntheses and re-interpretations of available information intended to further obscure or cast "reasonable doubt" on data unfavorable to the desired conclusion.It is hard to argue with hard data. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Remind me of the requirements for a usable "base text." I do not know the exact current consensus on the subject, but I've heard it said that 10,000 contiguous words from a 100% verified source would be adequate.One of the problems with the 2008 Stanford team's selection of a base-text for word-printing Sidney Rigdon, is that they amalgamated several texts attributed to Rigdon, without supplying 100% verification that he was their author. Joining texts together like that, is a less reliable method than using a single, 100% verified text for an author.Also, can you explain why anyone should take the relative probability of these results seriously in light of the lack of supporting historical evidence?That is exactly the sort of opening question that should be stated in some future journal paper, addressing the topic of authorship determination.Ron Dawbarn and Margie Miller are currently working on a book which attempts to detect a non-religious ur-text for the Book of Mormon. While it will be interesting to see what whittled-down version of the "Nephite Record" they come up with, for citation in their reporting, I suppose that the same question will be asked of their hypothesis:"...why anyone should take the relative probability of these results seriously?"I expect some sort of reply to the Dawbarn-Miller book in a JWHA Journal review in 2011 --- perhaps that will be the logical time and place for a knowledgeable scholar to address the Stanford team's computer analysis as well, since Dawbarn and Miller will also attempt to point out the Spalding (and perhaps Rigdon) sections of the BoM.I'm content to wait and see what the peer-reviewed scholarly response is.UD Link to comment
Vance Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I do not know the exact current consensus on the subject, but I've heard it said that 10,000 contiguous words from a 100% verified source would be adequate.Good luck with that! Link to comment
Mortal Man Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 In the words of Mark Twain, there are lies, damned lies, and statistical word-print studies. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 ...It is hard to argue with hard data.Well, some folks will say: "Garbage in -- garbage out," when it comes to superimposing authorship attributions on top of latter day scriptures.All I've managed to do, is to take the three "hot spots" (as Criddle calls them) for Book of Mormon/Spalding shared language, and measure the degree of that shared vocabulary and shared phraseology.Theoretically, my results should not correlate with the computerized determinations for "frequently used non-contextual words" distributions in the Book of Mormon, unless those correlations are due to common authorship.That is to say, Spalding's "word-print" should not necessarily line up with examples of his vocabulary and phraseology, unless some factor beyond pure coincidence is the "culprit" in causing such matching.My critics might well suggest that I carry out the same experiment for a couple of hundred other pre-1830 books written in English, and only then come back into an on-line forum such as this one, with my reporting.In fact, Ryan Larsen is considering just such a computerized project of multi-text examination, to supply "control data" for my own results, (see his new "Delving Deep" blog on matters Mormon):http://ryanlarsen.blogspot.com/2009/11/book-of-mormon-authenticity.htmlWe shall see...UD Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Good luck with that!That is why I'm asking whether we can simply excerpt 10,000 words from the LDS "History of the Church" (supposedly written by Smith) and rely upon such a base-text, in order to derive a "word-print" for him?UD. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 In the words of Mark Twain, there are lies, damned lies, and statistical word-print studies.Which is exactly why I went to the trouble of actually counting up the number of shared words in the 1830 Book of Mormon and in Spalding's writings --- so that we could consult something other than statistical interpretations.The BoM pages (color-coded for shared language with Spalding) are here:http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookMos1.htm (Mosiah)http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookAlm1.htm (Alma first part)http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol0.htm (Alma second part)http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookEth1.htm (Ether)Spalding's writings (color coded for shared language with the BoM) are here:http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/ColorSMS.htmUD Link to comment
wenglund Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 UD,Thanks for an knowledgeable and independent assessment. Spaulding/Rigdon authorship contributions to the BoM have always been of interest to me, and it is nice to see yet more objective data on the subject.We keep hearing the overoptimistic predictions of apologists that new and game-changing data and findings are just around the corner on a number of issues that are controversial (at least to apologists). These generally turn out to be tangled re-syntheses and re-interpretations of available information intended to further obscure or cast "reasonable doubt" on data unfavorable to the desired conclusion.It is hard to argue with hard data.Please Arc, there really is no call for poisoning the well. Thanks, -Wade Englund- Link to comment
Anijen Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Uncle Dale I used to read your post often now rarely do I. I just want to say the reason I don't anymore is because you have a trend to go into a psudohistory and base much of your reasoning on pure speculation. You will find an obscure passage from someones journal and then read into that even more.Not saying Orson Pratt isn't a good source and I am not using this thread as the example but just saying to me that seems to be your MO. Link to comment
Vance Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 That is why I'm asking whether we can simply excerpt 10,000 words from the LDS "History of the Church" (supposedly written by Smith) and rely upon such a base-text, in order to derive a "word-print" for him?Ah #$%!@#$%!!Who cares who really wrote it. We only care about who supposedly wrote it. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 ...Not saying Orson Pratt isn't a good source...Too bad Orson isn't with us today. He might even take an interest in this recent research -- since it points to his brother Parley as being one of the four latter day contributors to the Book of Mormon.Notice that, on my combined chart, Parley outranks Sidney as a major contributor to the BoM text in Mosiah-Alma.Maybe we should stop calling it the Spalding-Rigdon theory, and start calling it something else (with Pratt & Cowdery included).Can't please all of the people all of the time, I suppose -- so I won't try.I will try to put my historical interpretations into some context that is evidence-based, however.Anybody uncovering better/more evidence than I have on hand, please let me know, and I'll be sure to add your discoveries to the pile.UD Link to comment
Arc Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Please Arc, there really is no call for poisoning the well. Thanks, -Wade Englund-No "poisoning" was intended. My comment regarding apologist optimism was intended as a response to the William Schryver post #3 on this thread.Since I assumed that post #3 would be directly above mine when I started writing it, I did not quote Schryver directly. Link to comment
Anijen Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 You might have something but it is well attested that Parley met Joseph after the publishing of the BoM. I do not see how that could even be a possibility. I can get a word print study to say I am the creator/author of Green Eggs and Ham but it wouldn't make it so. Like I said before you seem to be attracted to anything that takes away actual history. Just my 2 cents Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Ah #$%!@#$%!!Who cares who really wrote it. We only care about who supposedly wrote it. Dan Vogel was supposed to be working on an in-depth study of authorship of "History of the Church," by consulting the original "Times & Seasons" serialized episodes, as well as their continuation in the "Millennial Star" and the 1850s "Deseret News." I wonder how far he got with that study?The problem is, that HC is a "documentary" history, and thus contains all sorts of original "documents," from various sources. A blind-stab at extracting an excerpt from that set of volumes might well end up being a lengthy quotation from Thomas Ford or some other non-Smith worthy.The Joseph Smith Papers scholars would do us all a profound service, by simply identifying the 1820s and 1830s "papers" we can be absolutely certain came from Smith's mind alone, without external contributions.UD. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 You might have something but it is well attested that Parley met Joseph after the publishing of the BoM....Can we find some non-Mormon sources for that attestation?The Scientologists can supply all sorts of references in regard to their various historical/philosophical/religious claims, but most of their attestations come from their own internal sources.If I really wanted to learn when H. Ron Hubbard met somebody or another for the first time, I'd probably also want to consult some non-Scientology sources.Same goes for documenting Joseph Smith's chronology. I don't think it would be a good idea to depend 100% on LDS sources alone.I've begun to build a web-page on Parley's 1820s activities, here:http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/PrattTin.htmPerhaps somebody can supply me with some non-LDS sources to add there.UD Link to comment
Vance Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Dan Vogel was supposed to be working on an in-depth study of authorship of "History of the Church," by consulting the original "Times & Seasons" serialized episodes, as well as their continuation in the "Millennial Star" and the 1850s "Deseret News."Oh great! Now I feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing that there won't be any prejudges involved in this effort. Link to comment
Vance Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Perhaps somebody can supply me with some non-LDS sources to add there.Right! Because we all KNOW that LDS sources are not to be trusted. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Oh great! Now I feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing that there won't be any prejudges involved in this effort. Would be nice if the 1840s and 1850s LDS newspaper texts for HC matched very closely with the modern, multi-volume LDS edition.Sandra Tanner says there are problems.Uncle "then again, the last time I relied upon Mrs. Tanner was in 1977" Dale Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Right! Because we all KNOW that LDS sources are not to be trusted. Well, I began several decades back, by trusting all the Reorganized LDS sources, and look at where that got me...UD Link to comment
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