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Comparing 2 Unknowns


Olavarria

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1) Will we ever find Zarahemla, Nephi, Mulek, Nephihah or Lib's city? Will we ever find a copy of king Benjamin's speech among the ruins?

The problem with these questians is that when comparing BoM geography and history we are comparing two unknowns.

We know the names of Nephite cities, but we don't know their GPS coordinates.

We know the GPS coordinates of many BoM era cities(La Venta, San Lorenzo,Chiapa de Corzo,Santa Rosa) but we don't know their names.

With regard to books, which is the stuff history is made of, this is what we have for at least one BoM-era culture:

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...

Did Joseph interpret the vignettes correctly?

Again, I think we are comparing 2 unknowns. We know how some Mormon and non-mormon Egyptologists interpret the vignettes, but what about ancient Egyptians? Are the available and translatable materials from the greco-roman period represenatative of Egyptian views?

My problem with this question, and I admit to being a total ignoramus regarding egyptology, is that I don't see why we would even care what "Egyptians" would make of the vignettes.

It seems to me that what we would care about is what Abraham would see in the vignettes and he wasn't Egyptian, just visiting. Since I am totally ignorant I will go ahead and opine my thoughts about it. Doctor Peterson can flunk me afterwards :P

OK, we have Abraham in egypt and he is wanting to write his memoirs. He asks for something to write on and... Pharoah sends him a scribe, who just absolutely refuses to let Abraham write for himself... (I don't know why, maybe papyrus was sacred) Anyway, so tells the story of his rescue from the evil priests, and the scribe records it, and when Abraham describes the drawing he wants made, he shows him a standard lion couch scene, and Abraham says, "Sure, that works, lets just tweak it a little..." etc.

The record gets passed down until Joseph who says "This old document is getting torn and worn, let's get somebody to repair it!" So a new scribe recopies it and maybe makes several copies for family. Those copies get buried with various people at different times, one happens to be important enough to rank a decent (in Egyptian terms) burial and so on.

Anyway, silly as all this is, I really don't care what Egyptians thought of the vignettes, what I do care about is the teaching that God wanted us to receive from it.

- SlackTime

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I think the problem with the cities that we do know about but don't know their names, is that they don't resemble anything like we would expect a BoM city to look like.

Although, I'm not sure what we would expect a BoM city to look like? Any ideas about what a BoM city would contain or not contain as compared to a typical Mayan city? Would you expect to see a crucifix?

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I think the problem with the cities that we do know about but don't know their names, is that they don't resemble anything like we would expect a BoM city to look like.

Although, I'm not sure what we would expect a BoM city to look like? Any ideas about what a BoM city would contain or not contain as compared to a typical Mayan city? Would you expect to see a crucifix?

I would tend to think that the only things we would see that might faintly resemble a crucifix would be "tree of life" representations, and I would expect them to be stylized in a way we would hardly recognize.

- SlackTime

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My problem with this question, and I admit to being a total ignoramus regarding egyptology, is that I don't see why we would even care what "Egyptians" would make of the vignettes.

It seems to me that what we would care about is what Abraham would see in the vignettes and he wasn't Egyptian, just visiting. Since I am totally ignorant I will go ahead and opine my thoughts about it. Doctor Peterson can flunk me afterwards :P

OK, we have Abraham in egypt and he is wanting to write his memoirs. He asks for something to write on and... Pharoah sends him a scribe, who just absolutely refuses to let Abraham write for himself... (I don't know why, maybe papyrus was sacred) Anyway, so tells the story of his rescue from the evil priests, and the scribe records it, and when Abraham describes the drawing he wants made, he shows him a standard lion couch scene, and Abraham says, "Sure, that works, lets just tweak it a little..." etc.

The record gets passed down until Joseph who says "This old document is getting torn and worn, let's get somebody to repair it!" So a new scribe recopies it and maybe makes several copies for family. Those copies get buried with various people at different times, one happens to be important enough to rank a decent (in Egyptian terms) burial and so on.

Anyway, silly as all this is, I really don't care what Egyptians thought of the vignettes, what I do care about is the teaching that God wanted us to receive from it.

- SlackTime

Good points.

The thing is that the vignettes and the hypo post date Abraham by millenia. So you might ask: what would Abraham's descendants see in the vignettes?

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I think the problem with the cities that we do know about but don't know their names, is that they don't resemble anything like we would expect a BoM city to look like.

Although, I'm not sure what we would expect a BoM city to look like? Any ideas about what a BoM city would contain or not contain as compared to a typical Mayan city? Would you expect to see a crucifix?

Ya, thing is the BoM cities weren't alaways populated by "good jews". Idolatry was rampant during several phases in their history.

Also, I threw Mayans out there but there was other cultures contemporary with BoM peoples too, just saying....

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Why do we expect Nephite religiosity to manifest itself artistically in ways that are familiar to us? Since we're taking about crucifixes and such....

Im just tired of hearing the old: "weres Zarahemla", "look at what egyptologist say about Fac 1 etc.

The first assumes that Z-town is identifiable and the second assumes that Egyptologists know every possible interpretation of a symbol and that what we have is representative of all that was known.

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Good points.

The thing is that the vignettes and the hypo post date Abraham by millenia. So you might ask: what would Abraham's descendants see in the vignettes?

Assuming that you are more knowledgable than I am (which is a good assumption). What period is it estimated that the Chandler mummies and the scrolls most likely came from? (assuming that they all came from the same period which may not be a good assumption)

- SlackTime

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Pedro,

I think you misunderstand the larger argument. Critics aren't so much asking where is Zarahemla per se, but rather making a statement that current understandings of mesoamerica in BoM times looks absolutely nothing like what the BoM portrays.

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Assuming that you are more knowledgable than I am (which is a good assumption). What period is it estimated that the Chandler mummies and the scrolls most likely came from? (assuming that they all came from the same period which may not be a good assumption)

- SlackTime

Greco-Roman Period

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Pedro - regarding your first question. There is still much to be discovered in the world. You can never say never. In his book "Underworld" by Graham Hancock there are 3 cities on the ocean floor. They have been known by local divers but not really explored. Even though not related to the BoM it is evident that discoveries will continue through time. Jericho is another example of a recent fictional city unearthed. The planet through all types of geological events covers up so much waiting to be discovered. Also glyphs more than likely correct is not always translatable as evident by some found in Egyptian temples such as in the pic below. Well never mind I have to figure why these pics of Abydos won't upload. They did before but all my pics seem to fail lately in uploading. Mods I'm coming to whine in a moment.

Actually i found a link to such maybe this will work.

http://www.timstouse.com/images/EarthHistory/EgyptTemples/AbydosWall.jpg

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Pedro,

I think you misunderstand the larger argument. Critics aren't so much asking where is Zarahemla per se, but rather making a statement that current understandings of mesoamerica in BoM times looks absolutely nothing like what the BoM portrays.

I remember watching the "Bible vs BoM" vid and one of the guys said: "I can vacation in Damascus, Rome or Jerusalem; why can't I vacation in Zarahemla" or something like that. Im glad you agree that this point is stupid.

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Pedro - regarding your first question. There is still much to be discovered in the world. You can never say never. In his book "Underworld" by Graham Hancock there are 3 cities on the ocean floor. They have been known by local divers but not really explored. Even though not related to the BoM it is evident that discoveries will continue through time. Jericho is another example of a recent fictional city unearthed. The planet through all types of geological events covers up so much waiting to be discovered. Also glyphs more than likely correct is not always translatable as evident by some found in Egyptian temples such as in the pic below. Well never mind I have to figure why these pics of Abydos won't upload. They did before but all my pics seem to fail lately in uploading. Mods I'm coming to whine in a moment.

Actually i found a link to such maybe this will work.

http://www.timstouse.com/images/EarthHistory/EgyptTemples/AbydosWall.jpg

I can read them....NOT!

That is precisley my point, but every now and again, i keep hearing these terrible arguments. Its as if some critics are less interested in truth and more interested in making "something stick" to someone's testimony and kill it.

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