Nephite "machines"

[notHagoth7]

In Jarom, we're told about Nephite machines that I have a question or two about. Here it is in some of the context:

And it came to pass that they came many times against us, the Nephites, to battle. But our kings and our leaders were mighty men in the faith of the Lord; and they taught the people the ways of the Lord; wherefore, we withstood the Lamanites and swept them away out of our lands, and began to fortify our cities, or whatsoever place of our inheritance.

And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war

[Zakuska]

Moved from other thread...

These Copper Culture tools from Northern Wisconsin were made between 4,000 B.C. and 1,200 B.C.

http://tinyurl.com/y9a7fll

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Copper tools whose wood hafting remains have been preserved due to anti-bacterial protection by copper oxides have been radiocarbon dated to 6800 BP at South Fowl Lake, Minnesota, site 21CK1. This date for a completed copper tool and inferred technology indicates that the people who inhabited the Lake Superior basin from 7000 to perhaps as early as 8000 years BP were utilizing amygdaloidal native copper or native copper float deposited by the glacial retreat 10000-12000 BP. They mined the amygdaloidal native copper, as evidenced by thousands of man made pits found in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ontario, Isle Royale and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

http://csasi.org/200...l_poundings.htm

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http://csasi.org/2003_spring_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm

So copper weapons and tools where being made by Native American peoples well before Book of Mormon times!

[notHagoth7]

So copper weapons and tools where being made by Native American peoples well before Book of Mormon times!

Zak,

Are you equating "tools" with Jarom's "machinery"?

[notHagoth7]

Here's Webster's 1828 primary definition:

MACHINERY, n. A complicated work, or combination of mechanical powers in a work, designed to increase, regulate or apply motion and force; as the machinery of a watch or other chronometer.

1. Machines in general. The machinery of a cotton-mill is often moved by a single wheel.

[notHagoth7]

And since "machinery" referred to "machines", here's Webster's 1828 definition:

MACHINE, n. [L. machina.] An artificial work, simple or complicated, that serves to apply or regulate moving power, or to produce motion, so as to save time or force. The simple machines are the six mechanical powers, viz.; the lever, the pulley, the axis and wheel,the wedge, the screw, and the inclined plane. Complicated machines are such as combine two or more of these powers for the production of motion or force.

1. An engine; an instrument of force.

With inward arms the dire machine they load.

[Zakuska]

The question remains... What where the machines made of?

I would consider a saw mill a Machine (Or even a wind mill), built of Wood (The over all building structure) and Metal. (The blade that cuts the lumber).

More on the dating of Michigan Cooper tools.

The duration of prehistoric mining is really much longer than this rough estimate. The dates and ranges of time for prehistoric copper use are really from about seven thousand years ago to protohistoric times. Suites of dates from the Upper Peninsula and nearby areas make it clear that the age of the use of copper lasts longer and extends farther than Sodders suggests. It does NOT extend as far as Phoenicia or the European Bronze Age, however! There is a growing cluster of sites with dates in the range of 7 thousand years ago, found at South Fowl Lake, MN; Lac LaBelle, MI and Oconto, WI (Beukens 1992; Martin 1993; (Mason 1981). There are at least three sites with typologically old lithics in the company of copper: at Itasca, MN; at sites in the Deer Lake, MI area; and at sites in the North Lakes region, WI (Clark 1991; Salzer 1974; Shay 1971). While certainly provisional at present, it is possible that copper-working is associated with sites of PaleoIndian and/or Early Archaic technology northwest of the Superior basin as well (Steinbring 1991).

[Zakuska]

Perhaps one of these machines were ancient American Spinning wheels or weavers looms?

Many examples of spun fiber, spinning tools, and even cloth have been found dating from 5000 - 4000 BC at sites in Europe, Asia, and the Americas. In Scandinavia examples of linen cloth have also been discovered dating from the same period. As the preparation process for spinning flax, from which linen is made, is quite extensive these finds are evidence that the art of spinning was very well developed by this time. Early Egyptian wall paintings show spinners hard at work.

http://www.associate...ory.html?cat=37

More on Ancient looms around the world...

http://tinyurl.com/yg64dft

[notHagoth7]

I would consider a saw mill a Machine (Or even a wind mill), built of Wood (The over all building structure) and Metal.

OK. Great conjecture.

Now back to the question:

Do any of the candidate sites for Nephite civilization (in South, Central, or North America) present evidence (ancient texts, images, archaeology) directly or indirectly, for the existence for a saw mill? Or for any other device that might be considered "machinery" to a 19th-century audience?

(Of course I believe the answer will eventually be yes. I just haven't yet seen a New-World example presented that might fit the ticket.)

[notHagoth7]

Perhaps one of these machines were ancient American Spinning wheels or weavers looms?

Once again, great conjecture.

But yet again, back to the question.

Do any of the candidate sites for Nephite civilization (in South, Central, or North America) present evidence (ancient texts, images, archaeology) directly or indirectly, for the existence a spinning wheel? Or for any other device that might be considered "machinery" to a 19th-century audience?

(Again, I believe the answer will eventually be yes. I just haven't yet seen a New-World example presented that might fit the ticket.)

[USU78]

The context is war, not home economics, for Jarom's machinery.

The inclined plane is a machine . . . with lots of warlike applications.

As is the screw.

As is the wheel.

[notHagoth7]

The context is war, not home economics, for Jarom's machinery.

Good stuf.

The inclined plane is a machine . . . with lots of warlike applications.

As is the screw. As is the wheel.

OK. Any example of any such machines anywhere in the New World? Perhaps even ones that suggest a military application?

[Zakuska]

The context is war, not home economics, for Jarom's machinery.

The inclined plane is a machine . . . with lots of warlike applications.

As is the screw.

As is the wheel.

Im not necessarily sure that the Machinery is specifically linked with "WAR".

"And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war

[poulsenll]

A good example of a machine that goes way back in history is the backstrap loom. It was very common in the ancient Mayan culture and probably so in other ancient Mesoamerican cultures.

Larry P

[notHagoth7]

Im not necessarily sure that the Machinery is specifically linked with "WAR".

"And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground...

Yep.

A more modern example would be the cotton gin.

So I'm still simply looking for a few examples that are known from the ancient Americas.

(I am curious, for example, as to how most accounts claim the pulley didn't exist - yet how few have an explanation for how things like Incan stone construction was accomplished.)

[handys003]

It's a historical fact through Ancient Greek and Rome records that they used machines such as cranes to build their temples and large buildings. The Greeks even had a form of railroad and cranes to lift ships out of the water and transport across land 700 years BCE. You will not find any of those remnants in a museum. They also had a form of vending machines that dispensed holy water and another that brought out Zeus through doors. Romans had ball bearings as Caligula had on his private yacht statues that moved on the deck. These are documented in books in the museums in Greece and Italy, but you won't find any physical remnants on display. Who is to say that the ancient peoples of Americas did not have. How were the stones lifted to create temples and pyramids? Polynesians used an archaic form of a wench system to move koa trees through the forests down to the ocean to build their canoes. Technically that qualifies as a machine. Also the Chinese built according to records a computer that kept accurate track of celestial movements and an earthquake detector. You won't find evidence of tose either except on paper. Machines existed in all parts of the world long before Christ was born.

Machine is a relative term.

[handys003]

I'll also add ancient man did not have time wasting pursuits like TV back then. They had plenty of time to sit around and think for themselves. They experimented on making things easier and being inventive. such as the pic of a wheeled toy (technically a machine) found in Vera Cruz, Mexico dated 600 CE.

[poulsenll]

If they used the pulley, it was probably made of wood rather than metal. Metal pulleys require a forging and casting where wooden pulleys could be carved with simple hand tools. The presence of wheeled toy wagons in graves attests to the fact that they knew the principle of the wheel although there is no evidence that it was ever used extensively for transportation. Probably because they had few or no domesticated beasts of burden to pull a full sized wagon or cart. However it is highly possible that for some other applications of the wheel using carved pulleys occurred. Just as indicated in the previous post, such pulleys would not have survived and if seldom used it would not have been recorded on pottery simply because it was a seldom used technique. If I recall correcly wooden pulleys were often used on sailing vessels because they did not corrode in the salt water environment.

Larry P

[Zakuska]

Well we know Elephants were around until about 400AD. Elephants could have very well been employeed at moving these huge stone monoliths. I know... nice conjecture.

[handys003]

Well we know Elephants were around until about 400AD. Elephants could have very well been employeed at moving these huge stone monoliths. I know... nice conjecture.

All you would need is 2 A-frame supports and a center pully, and rope, plus elephants or horses or another beast of burden and you can lifte several tons of rock. Very simple.

BTW don't bring up elephants there were only macaws

[Zakuska]

Hey what Animals are those toys?

One looks like a Chiuaua the other looks like a horse?

[handys003]

If they used the pulley, it was probably made of wood rather than metal. Metal pulleys require a forging and casting where wooden pulleys could be carved with simple hand tools. The presence of wheeled toy wagons in graves attests to the fact that they knew the principle of the wheel although there is no evidence that it was ever used extensively for transportation. Probably because they had few or no domesticated beasts of burden to pull a full sized wagon or cart. However it is highly possible that for some other applications of the wheel using carved pulleys occurred. Just as indicated in the previous post, such pulleys would not have survived and if seldom used it would not have been recorded on pottery simply because it was a seldom used technique. If I recall correcly wooden pulleys were often used on sailing vessels because they did not corrode in the salt water environment.

Larry P

I would suspect of uneven and rough roads would have a lot to do with lack of wheeled vehicles also the lack of finding ball bearings.

[handys003]

Hey what Animals are those toys?

One looks like a Chiuaua the other looks like a horse?

It's called a deer by the site. Here's a link to more including dogs, monkeys and jaguars.

http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

[notHagoth7]

...a wench system...

Hmm.

I'm guessing you probably mean "winch" system.

But I've been wrong before.

[handys003]

Hmm.

I'm guessing you probably mean "winch" system.

But I've been wrong before.

If there was a facepalm emoticon I would use it right now.

[Zakuska]

wench