Jump to content

"King and ruler": redundant english or good hebrew?


Olavarria

Recommended Posts

Mosiah 23: 39

39)And the king of the Lamanites had granted unto Amulon that he should be a king and a ruler over his people, who were in the land of Helam; nevertheless he should have no power to do anything contrary to the will of the king of the Lamanites.

Mosiah 6:3

3)And again, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had made an end of all these things, and had consecrated his son Mosiah to be a ruler and a king over his people, and had given him all the charges concerning the kingdom, and also had appointed priests to dteach the people, that thereby they might hear and know the commandments of God, and to stir them up in remembrance of the eoath which they had made, he dismissed the multitude, and they returned, every one, according to their families, to their own houses.

Isn't a king a ruler? Saying someone is a king and ruler is like saying someone is a boxer and an athlete. In Hebrew, ?????? kohen means priest. It also means ruler.

Amulon was one of the wicked priests of King Noah. Other Nephite kings also served in a sacerdotal capacity, consecrating/appointing priests,communing with God on behalf of the people(Nephi, Benjamin).

2 Sam. 20: 26

26)And Ira also the Jairite was a chief ruler(????? ?????) about David.

2 Sam. 8: 18

18) And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over both the Cherethites and the Pelethites; and David

Link to comment

...

Isn't a king a ruler? Saying someone is a king and ruler is like saying

someone is a boxer and an athlete. In Hebrew, ?????? kohen means priest.

It also means ruler.

...

In the 1751 "Book of Jasher" we find that exact expression, applied to

Moses, in an extra-canonical "murmuring" of the Children of Israel

to Aaron -- who is already "the priest."

Perhaps at Sinai the Children of Israel were expressing their displeasure

at Moses attempting to be both a king and a priest -- but I think that

the Book of Jashur was merely rendering into English some Hebrew textual

parallelism, where one idea is often expressed in two joined phrases.

I doubt that Joseph Smith would have access to the 1751 edition of

the Book of Jasher -- and the US 2nd edition did not appear until after

the Book of Mormon had been "translated," in 1829 -- though excerpts

were available in various other pre-1830 publications.

Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith, while at Dartmouth College, might

have had easier access to the Book of Jasher.

Vernal Holley once wrote up a comparison of all the parallel word-strings

found in the Book of Jasher and the Book of Mormon. I do not recall

at the moment whether "king and ruler" was on Vernal's list or not.

Uncle Dale

Link to comment

In the 1751 "Book of Jasher" we find that exact expression, applied to

Moses, in an extra-canonical "murmuring" of the Children of Israel

to Aaron -- who is already "the priest."

Perhaps at Sinai the Children of Israel were expressing their displeasure

at Moses attempting to be both a king and a priest -- but I think that

the Book of Jashur was merely rendering into English some Hebrew textual

parallelism, where one idea is often expressed in two joined phrases.

I doubt that Joseph Smith would have access to the 1751 edition of

the Book of Jasher -- and the US 2nd edition did not appear until after

the Book of Mormon had been "translated," in 1829 -- though excerpts

were available in various other pre-1830 publications.

Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith, while at Dartmouth College, might

have had easier access to the Book of Jasher.

Vernal Holley once wrote up a comparison of all the parallel word-strings

found in the Book of Jasher and the Book of Mormon. I do not recall

at the moment whether "king and ruler" was on Vernal's list or not.

Uncle Dale

There is one thing we can both agree on. The 1830 Edition of the BoM is derived from a pre-existing source. We can agree to disagree on what that source was. But it was derivied from a prexisting source.

Ps. It was a set of gold plates. :P

Link to comment

...

It was a set of gold plates.

I'm always ready to accept the truth, whenever that truth is presented to me.

Show me some Nephite writings upon plates, and I'll be the first to agree.

UD

Link to comment

When Pharoah put Joseph in charge of everything, that made him a ruler, but he was not the king. Pharoah retained the kingship (and certainly veto power over Joseph). So, it's easy enough to be one and not the other. I don't see any redundance here.

Link to comment

When Pharoah put Joseph in charge of everything, that made him a ruler, but he was not the king. Pharoah retained the kingship (and certainly veto power over Joseph). So, it's easy enough to be one and not the other. I don't see any redundance here.

So your saying that these men were described as "king and ruler" because otherwise we would assume they were made king and some one else would be made ruler?

Link to comment

...

Show me some Nephite writings upon plates

...

Or -- just show me some Nephite writings upon some other surface.

Or, just some metal plates from the Nephite region. Or Mulekite

writings, or Jaredite writings. Or any artifact from Book of Mormon

times -- a scrap of Hebrew, an Israelite clay lamp -- a bit of fossil

Nephite grain pollen from an ancient American occupation site.

Heck, I'm not picky -- I'll settle for a view of Moroni's stone box

from that hill south of the Smith farm in Manchester, New York.

Nothing "sacred" about that Nephite artifact, that keeps it from

our inspection, is there?

I can easily show you the Book of Jasher -- it is sold at Deseret Books

across from Temple Square in Salt Lake City.

UD

.

Link to comment

I'm always ready to accept the truth, whenever that truth is presented to me.

Show me some Nephite writings upon plates, and I'll be the first to agree.

UD

I would say that most that read this board do not question that you are a truth seeker

Link to comment

I would say that most that read this board do not question that you are a truth seeker

Actually, I see more hope for the Latter Day Saints in the future,

than for most other religious people. At least they have not lost

track of the precepts of community and covenants -- a covenant community

in fact. That's important. Without that sort of base, religions become

ideology-centered instead of people-centered and God-centered.

Maybe I was just born 100 years too soon.

I have the strong feeling that, a century from now, we won't be

distracted with petty observations as to how the Book of Mormon

contains words and sentences that Joseph Smith couldn't have written.

I honestly think we will have moved on to more important considerations.

In the meanwhile, I'm stuck here in 2009.

UD

Link to comment

Or -- just show me some Nephite writings upon some other surface.

Or, just some metal plates from the Nephite region. Or Mulekite

writings, or Jaredite writings. Or any artifact from Book of Mormon

times -- a scrap of Hebrew, an Israelite clay lamp -- a bit of fossil

Nephite grain pollen from an ancient American occupation site.

We'll see what the divers turn up in the archaeological inspections at the ruins of Samabaj in Guatemala.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...