consiglieri Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.Any thoughts?All the Best!--Consiglieri Link to comment
Sevenbak Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.Any thoughts?All the Best!--ConsiglieriLook on the bright side, he didn't use 'slither'. Link to comment
ttribe Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I hardly think it was pejorative. It appeared, to me at least, to be a verbal demonstrative of the size of the obstacle, not an intentional insult to those who left (which I know you disagree with given your post to Larsen over on MDB). Link to comment
consiglieri Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Look on the bright side, he didn't use 'slither'.You are right about that, but for some reason, that is the image that came to mind when I heard the word "crawl" used.Do you think it unreasonable to interpret his comments as suggesting that those who leave the Church are in some way subhuman?All the Best!--Consiglieri Link to comment
Jeff K. Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 How does one open a dialogue with those who claim the Boof of Mormon is a lie?And one must crawl over the book of Mormon the same way one "crawls" over the the corpse of one's testimony which only the individual can kill. Testimonies are uniquely untouchable by anyone other than the person who holds it. One does indeed crawl, whether over the testimony of one's own making, the martyrs who sealed their testimony, and the Book of Mormon they can no longer hold to. Link to comment
Deborah Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Look on the bright side, he didn't use 'slither'. Well since I'm not a mind reader I wouldn't know why he used crawl. I think however, the fact that many who leave the church don't "parade" out or "march" or "skip", crawl is as good a word as any. Link to comment
emeliza Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I took it to mean the speed at which they were leaving. I thought it was like 'inching' out of the Church. Maybe I will need to hear it over again though as the wording didn't impact me that much on the particular line. I thought it was a good talk as well. Link to comment
ttribe Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Do you think it unreasonable to interpret his comments as suggesting that those who leave the Church are in some way subhuman?Completely unreasonable. Link to comment
consiglieri Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 I hardly think it was pejorative. It appeared, to me at least, to be a verbal demonstrative of the size of the obstacle, not an intentional insult to those who left (which I know you disagree with given your post to Larsen over on MDB).Show off! But really, the size of an obstacle alone does not require one to crawl.One can still walk in an upright position past the largest of obstacles.It is still sounding pejorative to me . . .All the Best!--Consiglieri Link to comment
Sevenbak Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 You are right about that, but for some reason, that is the image that came to mind when I heard the word "crawl" used.Do you think it unreasonable to interpret his comments as suggesting that those who leave the Church are in some way subhuman?All the Best!--ConsiglieriNo, I don't think it was meant that way. Like he said the Book of Mormon is a "stone of stumbling, a rock of offense".What happens when one stumbles and falls? They crawl... around the obstacle. Link to comment
consiglieri Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 How does one open a dialogue with those who claim the Boof of Mormon is a lie?With respect, you idiot. Link to comment
Sevenbak Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I took it to mean the speed at which they were leaving. I thought it was like 'inching' out of the Church. Maybe I will need to hear it over again though as the wording didn't impact me that much on the particular line. I thought it was a good talk as well.That's a good point. The devil leading "carefully down to hell" is a slow process.All is not well in Zion. Link to comment
Jeff K. Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 What I find interesting is the juxtaposition of the Book of Mormon. It is a stumbling block for unbelievers who don't want to believe.It is also a stumbling block for believers who wish to leave the church. Link to comment
William Schryver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.Any thoughts?All the Best!--ConsiglieriYou must have missed a lot of good conference sessions in the past 25 years. Either that or your memory is short.In any case, I also agree that Elder Holland gave a very moving address--one of my favorite of this General Conference. But there are many other talks given in the past quarter century that I believe were just as significant and moving. Elder Oaks has given several that come to immediately to mind, including his "Challenge to Become," which is a classic in the elucidation of Mormon doctrine.Still, I'm not here to dispute the greatness of Elder Holland's talk.I will say this: I don't believe that most people "crawl" out of the church. I think most can be seen to be holding their heads high and their necks stiff as they exit the chapel doors for the last time. Link to comment
John Williams Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 What I find interesting is the juxtaposition of the Book of Mormon. It is a stumbling block for unbelievers who don't want to believe.It is also a stumbling block for believers who wish to leave the church.There you have it: people who leave either don't want to believe or do want to leave the church. I hope you never have someone in your family who doubts; it wouldn't help them much to blithely dismiss them the way you dismiss every other person who has ever struggled with faith. Link to comment
katherine the great Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?--ConsiglieriWell, at least to get "under" it, you probably would need to crawl. To get over it, I suppose you would have to climb. Link to comment
William Schryver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 With respect, you idiot.With all due respect, I have certainly seen instances where it is plainly futile to attempt to dialogue with enemies of the restored gospel, although I have seen that you seem to have the ability, at times, to move rather effortlessly in their circles. Indeed, you seem to have become the latest cause celebre in one corner of anti-Mormon cyber-space.That would concern me were I you. But I can see, in your case, it doesn't. Link to comment
Matthew J. Tandy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Consig,To crawl around a blatant, obvious, and unavoidable obstacle is a common phrase that simply implies that one is on a path, but to go further you have a really big obstacle in the way that has minimal wiggle room. To get around it and continue on, you must squeeze, wiggle, crawl under or around it, making a concerted effort to do so. I hear this phrase used all of the time in business when there is a blatant issue that a client keeps trying to crawl around. I am senior property manager at my firm. I can't even tell you the amount of owners who want to crawl around the legal obligations they owe tenants for safety, health, and deposit return. They make all sorts of efforts and present convoluted logic, even AFTER they admit to me that they know what they SHOULD do, but can't they jsut maybe do "x" and pretend I hadn't told them anything?So sorry Consig, I consider it a common phrase that implies making a concerted effort to get past an obstacle when wiggle room is limited. I hear and use it several times a week in exactly that context and nothing subhuman or degrading is meant by it. It's describing what they are doing in the speakers mind. Link to comment
Scottie Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 With respect, you idiot.Consig...... I love you man!!! Link to comment
structurecop Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Well, at least to get "under" it, you probably would need to crawl. To get over it, I suppose you would have to climb.Well, let's talk about the size of the Book of Mormon in comparison to common obstacles one might try to conquer for recreational or physical training purposes. Also, orientation of this hypothetical book in relation to the ground must be taken into consideration.If it is, for example, set at an angle over the ground, it may very well require some crawling. I submit that the size of this hypothetical Book of Mormon obstacle is only as large as one leaving the Church allows it to be (or cares to make it). It seems a little misguided to me to use this imagery when it would only be an obstacle to those who have a fairly deep understanding and appreciation of the Book of Mormon, which would probably only compose a small percentage of those "leaving" the Church (whatever that means). The rest are probably leaving out of apathy, cultural influences, etc. Link to comment
saemo Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 A Muslim can say you have to crawl under or climb over the Koran to get out of Islam. Anyone not Muslim says duh. All it says is that LDS belief stands or falls on a book. Link to comment
Lightbearer Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Elder Holland's talk was by far the best talk I have heard in conference in over 25-years.But as I talk to others, it is beginning to bother me that he said people who leave the Church only do so by "crawling."I don't think it bothered me so much that he said they had to get "over" or "under" or "around" the Book of Mormon on the way out, but why did he have to choose the verb "crawl"?It seems gratuitously pejorative and not likely to open the door to dialogue if his hope was having them "crawl" back to Church.Any thoughts?All the Best!--ConsiglieriNo, crawl is quite appropriate I think. But not for the reasons given here. Crawl to me implies that they cannot walk, perhaps because they are lame... or simply still babies in the Gospel. Not that they are subhuman, but perhaps they are helpless spiritually. Think of the following:(D&C 27:15-18) "Wherefore, lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins, and take upon you my whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day, having done all, that ye may be able to stand. Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, which I have sent mine angels to commit unto you; Taking the shield of faith wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked; And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of my Spirit, which I will pour out upon you, and my word which I reveal unto you, and be agreed as touching all things whatsoever ye ask of me, and be faithful until I come, and ye shall be caught up, that where I am ye shall be also. Amen."That is how I took Elder Holland's expression in his remarks. Link to comment
structurecop Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 That would concern me were I you. But I can see, in your case, it doesn't.Will, clearly, your goading of Consig isn't convincing him to see things your way. Time to try changing tactics. Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Show off! But really, the size of an obstacle alone does not require one to crawl.One can still walk in an upright position past the largest of obstacles.It depends on the size of the area around the obstacle as well, doesn't it? No matter the size of the obstacle, if the openings around it are small, you would have to crawl to get by it (speaking as one who's done some spelunking in her time). Link to comment
William Schryver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Consig...... I love you man!!!Of course you do! I don't know a disaffected or former Mormon on this board right now who isn't glad-handing our dear brother consiglieri. Link to comment
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