LDS: Is God Omniscient?

[Mudcat]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

[jadams_4242]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

omniscience Of God is one thing; but he also gave us the gift of free agency and that started in the garden of eden; If his omniscience was to be absolute in our lives on this earth; then why did he put us hear?

[mercyngrace]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

Samson slew more Philistines in his death than in his life. God was right, Delilah notwithstanding. Would Samson's ultimate slaying of so many Philistines have been possible without his fall to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

Yes. I believe He knows who will choose salvation. I bleieve He knows in the same way that I know my 7 year old is going to lie to me about brushing his teeth even before I ask him or in the way I know my 10 year old is coming down with a flu even though he has no symptoms yet. He knows our hearts better than we know ourselves.

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

No.

[ERayR]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

God is omniscient. As per the principal of free will he still is bound to give us our chance and let the decision be ours.

[Montgomery Price]

Our choices are based on the qualities of our "I".

If "I" believe X is the best choice, then I will choose X.

If "I" believe Y is the best choice, then I will choose Y.

The "I" affects your decision... So much in fact that your "I" curbs every single decision you make.

Where do these choices find their roots? Who created the "I" that is you?

God did.

He knew that before he created your "I" in any specific way, that your custom "I" would result in different choices... God created you to make certain choices, because he knew how you would act based on your "I", before God created your "I".

God created you knowing that the way he would create you, would ultimately result in the choices you make.

So, no... free-will does not truly exist given the assumption that God has done it this way. Your choices are choices made because of the way God created you to begin with. This means that God does not truly want everyone to be saved either, because he would have created your "I" so that you would be saved, instead of creating unequal "I's" for us.

[mercyngrace]

So, no... free-will does not truly exist given the assumption that God has done it this way. Your choices are choices made because of the way God created you to begin with. This means that God does not truly want everyone to be saved either, because he would have created your "I" so that you would be saved, instead of creating unequal "I's" for us.

LDS do not accept that assumption.

[Montgomery Price]

LDS do not accept that assumption.

So, please correct my assumption. Don't just point out that I am prepared for your correction, show me.

[Garden Girl]

[quote name='Montgomery Price' date='20 September 2009 - 09:09

So, no... free-will does not truly exist given the assumption that God has done it this way. Your choices are choices made because of the way God created you to begin with. This means that God does not truly want everyone to be saved either, because he would have created your "I" so that you would be saved, instead of creating unequal "I's" for us.

[Montgomery Price]

How do you know that God truly does not want all of his children to be saved? CFR

Garden Girl

God creates us knowing that the way he creates us will specifically lead us to choices that will stray from the path of salvation, therefore God wants us to stray.

If God did not want us to go astray, he would not create us in a way he knew would lead us astray. But he has, so God intended us to.

I'm sorry if this gets jumbled... This is very hard to explain.

Now, if you bring in hypocritical and illogical concept of eternal progression... this all turns to dust. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. I'm discussing eternal progression in the "Problem of Salvation" thread.

[Mudcat]

God creates us knowing that the way he creates us will specifically lead us to choices that will stray from the path of salvation, therefore God wants us to stray.

Hi MP,

Just guessing, but it sounds like you have some Calvinistic background?

I snipped a bit from your post to GG and would ask you support your assertion.

[mercyngrace]

So, please correct my assumption. Don't just point out that I am prepared for your correction, show me.

Sure - we believe that the core essence of our spirits, what we term intelligence, is eternal and cannot be created, that it was in the beginning with God.(D&C 93:29)

Just as human parents create the fetus and the spirit enters that fleshly tabernacle, God created our spirits from a base of intelligence and other matter.

[mercyngrace]

God creates us knowing that the way he creates us will specifically lead us to choices that will stray from the path of salvation, therefore God wants us to stray.

There is some truth here - Eve said that were it not for her transgression she would not know good from evil. Attaining wisdom is a fundamental purpose of mortality. We must sin in order to know the good from the evil and in order to recognize our need for salvation. In other words, God allows us to fall in the hope that we will land on our knees.

If God did not want us to go astray, he would not create us in a way he knew would lead us astray. But he has, so God intended us to.

Not because he created us thus but because the flesh is innately weak. Again, some truth here.

I'm sorry if this gets jumbled... This is very hard to explain.

Now, if you bring in hypocritical and illogical concept of eternal progression... this all turns to dust. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. I'm discussing eternal progression in the "Problem of Salvation" thread.

Eternal progression is only "hypocritical and illogical" if you misunderstand your purpose here. The experiences of mortality allow us to recognize, as Eve suggested, the good from the evil. As we choose good, we first come unto Christ, then we seek to emulate him. Eternal progression is simply the recognition that mortality accomplished primarily the first of those purposes. The second step, coming unto Christ, can occur in this life or in the spirit world, as every knee ultimately bows and every tongue confesses His goodness and singular path to salvation. The final step, emulating Christ, begins here but spans the eternities.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

1. Yes

2. Yes.

3. No.

[Jeff K.]

God is omnicient

We have free will

No problem.

[Montgomery Price]

God creates us knowing that the way he creates us will specifically lead us to choices that will stray from the path of salvation, therefore God wants us to stray.

There is some truth here - Eve said that were it not for her transgression she would not know good from evil. Attaining wisdom is a fundamental purpose of mortality. We must sin in order to know the good from the evil and in order to recognize our need for salvation. In other words, God allows us to fall in the hope that we will land on our knees.

If God did not want us to go astray, he would not create us in a way he knew would lead us astray. But he has, so God intended us to.

Not because he created us thus but because the flesh is innately weak. Again, some truth here.

I'm sorry if this gets jumbled... This is very hard to explain.

Now, if you bring in hypocritical and illogical concept of eternal progression... this all turns to dust. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. I'm discussing eternal progression in the "Problem of Salvation" thread.

Eternal progression is only "hypocritical and illogical" if you misunderstand your purpose here. The experiences of mortality allow us to recognize, as Eve suggested, the good from the evil. As we choose good, we first come unto Christ, then we seek to emulate him. Eternal progression is simply the recognition that mortality accomplished primarily the first of those purposes. The second step, coming unto Christ, can occur in this life or in the spirit world, as every knee ultimately bows and every tongue confesses His goodness and singular path to salvation. The final step, emulating Christ, begins here but spans the eternities.

If God is opposed to suffering, then why all the excess?

Why can't everyone receive the minimum requirements for attaining wisdom, knowledge of good and evil? Why must suffering be caused by those who are drowned in evil? Why must suffering be caused in excess at all?

Why do so many suffer on Earth excessively, when there is only a minimum amount of suffering required to fulfill the plan of salvation?

Why does any of this matter, when no amount of finite suffering will ever compare to the infinite reward that is given to every man no matter what happens?

If I know that I will eventually receive an infinite amount of happiness, any finite suffering before this has no bearing on my actions whatsoever.

[Maya]

I thik God knows our potentials, but does He know for sure, what we are going to chioose, I am not so sure about that. That is why we are here on earth that we could choose, use our free agency. And if we use it to the right, use our potentials thowards the positive sollution it brings us to God.

[mercyngrace]

If God is opposed to suffering, then why all the excess?

Because His ability to abridge the agency of man is limited by our sense of justice.

Why can't everyone receive the minimum requirements for attaining wisdom, knowledge of good and evil? Why must suffering be caused by those who are drowned in evil? Why must suffering be caused in excess at all?

They do. But it isn't wisdom. Wisdom can only be obtained by exposure to both good and evil. The minimum requirement is called conscience but my conscience can't control your agency.

Why do so many suffer on Earth excessively, when there is only a minimum amount of suffering required to fulfill the plan of salvation?

If God limited my agency (let's say I'm a cruel third world dictator) but didn't limit yours (let's say you're a decent bloke but that you drank and drove once injuring a child) that would be unjust. Unless God intervened to inhibit everyone's agency, He would be a respector of persons and a God unworthy of our honor. If He did intervene in every case He would inhibit the process by which we acquire wisdom. Quite the dilemma. Why does any of this matter, when no amount of finite suffering will ever compare to the infinite reward that is given to every man no matter what happens?

Because it's about who we become in the process. You can't simply wait out the suffering - you have to change through the experience.

If I know that I will eventually receive an infinite amount of happiness, any finite suffering before this has no bearing on my actions whatsoever.

On the contrary, suffering here makes we want to enjoy happiness now by understanding godliness and living in such a way that I can have peace. For some, it makes them want to live as to avoid hell. For others, it brings them to God. And for too many, it calls faith into question.

[ERayR]

If God is opposed to suffering, then why all the excess?

As stated above free will is an eternal principal that God does not violate.

Why can't everyone receive the minimum requirements for attaining wisdom, knowledge of good and evil? Why must suffering be caused by those who are drowned in evil? Why must suffering be caused in excess at all?

Because the minimu requirements for me may be different from the minimum requirements for you. Also see above, free will is in play here.

Why do so many suffer on Earth excessively, when there is only a minimum amount of suffering required to fulfill the plan of salvation?

See above. nobody knows what amount of suffering is required, if any.

Why does any of this matter, when no amount of finite suffering will ever compare to the infinite reward that is given to every man no matter what happens?

I personally do not see any correlation between suffering and reward. Rewards do not come from suffering they are a result of obedience to Gods commandments.

If I know that I will eventually receive an infinite amount of happiness, any finite suffering before this has no bearing on my actions whatsoever.

Again I do not see any correlation between suffering and rewards. See above.

[sethpayne]

God is omniscient. As per the principal of free will he still is bound to give us our chance and let the decision be ours.

So God is omniscient, but not omnipotent. Correct?

[Mudcat]

duplicated.... oops

[Mudcat]

Thanks all for the responses so far.

Seems the overwhelming consensus would be that God is omniscient and omniscience and free will are not mutually exclusive.

To take this a bit further, I would ask how does God's omniscience as defined by LDS coincide with the concept of exaltation. By this I mean, is God omniscient about an exalted child of his that becomes a God and the worlds they will create and be peopled by... and so on down the line?

Also @ Montgomery Price. Still waiting on what basis you support your particular view. I have seen you question the position of free will, which of course is fine. However, if you simply offer an unsupported proposition as a better view, their is no logical reason to believe that such a proposition is valid or better. Or do you simply accept your view on a priori

faith and therefore it needs no explanation?

[Jeff K.]

By this I mean, is God omniscient about an exalted child of his that becomes a God and the worlds they will create and be peopled by... and so on down the line?

That is an interesting question, since it rises to the question of what exactly is infinity. Can infinity have borders? Can something be finite and infinitie?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

3 questions.

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

Yes

[Mudcat]

Yes

Ok so are suggesting God is not omniscient or are you suggesting free will doesn't exist. Or possibly both I suppose?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Ok so are suggesting God is not omniscient or are you suggesting free will doesn't exist. Or possibly both I suppose?

I just don?t know sometimes. Some days I think we are masters of our own destiny and others that some are never given a chance.

I know I hate one of the ideas of Calvin, that being that God has already decided (before they were ever born) who is saved and who is not. I have no desire to worship such a God.

This is one area where complete faith (on my part) must be used.