Grace only after all we can do?

[Selah]

Where in the Bible does it say that we receive grace AFTER all that we ca do? I have never seen any indication of hinting of this never mind that actual words being there. Yet I hear LDS say this quite often. If Grace is truly a free gift then why are we earning it. Is it then a reward rather that a gift. If the Bible says that all of our works are like filthy rags, then how can we possibly assume that grace kicks in AFTER all that we can do. There was no time fir the thief in the cross to do any work. He confessed, accepted Jesus and Jesus said that on this day he would be in Paradise with him. And yes I do believe that Paradise is the same as Heaven. Will look this up in the Greek to confirm. God does in fact deem works necessary but NOT as a means to salvation but as a sign to the world that we are saved and now have this desire to do good works.

[lukas_s]

You're right, we're saved by the grace of Christ. No LDS person disputes this. It is our works, however, that bring us closer to the Father, and if we're faithful and Christlike enough, it is our works that exalt us. There is a distinction between salvation and exaltation in Mormon scripture.

Works come after being born again, yes. Our works show God our willingness to follow His Son. They don't save us, but they certainly help to sanctify us as we become more Christlike.

[Sevenbak]

Where in the Bible does it say that we receive grace AFTER all that we ca do? I have never seen any indication of hinting of this never mind that actual words being there. Yet I hear LDS say this quite often. If Grace is truly a free gift then why are we earning it. Is it then a reward rather that a gift. If the Bible says that all of our works are like filthy rags, then how can we possibly assume that grace kicks in AFTER all that we can do. There was no time fir the thief in the cross to do any work. He confessed, accepted Jesus and Jesus said that on this day he would be in Paradise with him. And yes I do believe that Paradise is the same as Heaven. Will look this up in the Greek to confirm. God does in fact deem works necessary but NOT as a means to salvation but as a sign to the world that we are saved and now have this desire to do good works.

I think the closest you will get in meaning to this in the bible is found in Philippians. Same meaning, IMO.

Philippians 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[Flyonthewall]

Where in the Bible does it say that we receive grace AFTER all that we ca do? I have never seen any indication of hinting of this never mind that actual words being there. Yet I hear LDS say this quite often.

This phrase does not come from the Bible, it comes from the Book of Mormon.

If Grace is truly a free gift then why are we earning it. Is it then a reward rather that a gift. If the Bible says that all of our works are like filthy rags, then how can we possibly assume that grace kicks in AFTER all that we can do.

You may be confusing salvation(from physical death) with exaltation...Our works may be as "filthy rags" but it is those "filthy rags" that we will be judged by.

There was no time fir the thief in the cross to do any work. He confessed, accepted Jesus and Jesus said that on this day he would be in Paradise with him. And yes I do believe that Paradise is the same as Heaven. Will look this up in the Greek to confirm. God does in fact deem works necessary but NOT as a means to salvation but as a sign to the world that we are saved and now have this desire to do good works.

As has been brought up many times on this board, paradise and heaven(the presence of the Father) are not the same. Jesus may have promised the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day, but then 3 days later, when Jesus was resurrected, He still had not ascended to His Father. And it is written that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.

[David T]

This verse is one of the most misunderstood, because the emphasis is placed on the wrong part.

It is not saying that Grace is just an extra push that nudges us over the edge, and comes after we've done all the Saving effort.

It does mean that the petty, eternally insubstantial things do are not what saves us: it is Christ's Grace that is what actually does all the work.

Using the analogy of an $1,000,000,000.00 debt to God the Father, we put forward $0.01 (all that we have and would ever recieve) to Christ, and by showing that we're willing to put forth all that we have (even though it's completely insubstantial), to accept him as our Creditor. Christ comes forward and pays the $999,999,999.99, and calls it even. No one in their right mind would say their $0.01 'earned' a settlement of the debt, or payed the debt, or earned anything. It is then by Grace (Christ's $999,999,999.99) that we are saved, after all that we can do ($0.01).

As Paul would say, that's nothing to boast about.

[charity's child]

This verse is one of the most misunderstood, because the emphasis is placed on the wrong part.

It is not saying that Grace is just an extra push that nudges us over the edge, and comes after we've done all the Saving effort.

It does mean that the petty, eternally insubstantial things do are not what saves us: it is Christ's Grace that is what actually does all the work.

Using the analogy of an $1,000,000,000.00 debt to God the Father, we put forward $0.01 (all that we have and would ever recieve) to Christ, and by showing that we're willing to put forth all that we have (even though it's completely insubstantial), to accept him as our Creditor. Christ comes forward and pays the $999,999,999.99, and calls it even. No one in their right mind would say their $0.01 'earned' a settlement of the debt, or payed the debt, or earned anything. It is then by Grace (Christ's $999,999,999.99) that we are saved, after all that we can do ($0.01).

As Paul would say, that's nothing to boast about.

I think though, that the person who refuses to give the $0.01 is not truly accepting the $999,999,999.99 gift, because they are not giving the only thing Christ asks of them.

[David T]

I think though, that the person who refuses to give the $0.01 is not truly accepting the $999,999,999.99 gift, because they are not giving the only thing Christ asks of them.

Exactly. This $0.01 is what Christ means when he says, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt 11:29-30). Living the Gospel Commandments to show acceptance of Christ as your Savior, in comparison to the impossible price for one's own sins, is indeed an "easy" and "light" burden.

But the Yoke we have to accept is the one Christ gives us - we can't just grab the yoke of our choice, and say that it's the Savior's.

[BCSpace]

If the Bible says that all of our works are like filthy rags,

They are. Works don't save us, grace does and that is LDS doctrine. Of course it doesn't conflict with the BoM verse you are asking about.

then how can we possibly assume that grace kicks in AFTER all that we can do.

After we have endured to the end (Matthew 24:12), it will be determined what kind of works we did (Matthew 25:31-46), and that will determine how much grace applies towards salvation. This results in varying degrees of salvation as taught expressly in the Bible (1 Corinthians 15:40-21 etc.) and taught by the early Christians (as anyone would expect).

Therefore works are required for salvation. Simply confessing Christ (a minimal work) will get you the lowest degree of salvation. Actually obeying the commandments of God and being valiant in testimony and living the gospel will get you eternal life (life with God as Gods). And there are variations in between and also less than the minimum salvation (permanent hell or the second death).

[thatjimguy]

Yeah, I think that people that use this against us put all the emphasis in the words "After".

I thin the emphasis should be read...

"It is by GRACE that we are saved, after all we can do."

This makes it sound totally different doesn't it? We can try and try and try to do all the works in the world, but it isn't enough. I think it reads clearly enough, but most pundits will wear that down to the hilt.

I heard an LDS call up Shawn McCraney's show and say something likewise. He was taken aback a bit as if he never heard an LDS say something like this.

So what I would like to know, since I am a convert. To all of you Dyed-in-the-wool LDS in Utah, IS there a large emphasis on works to be saved? (not just exaltation, but to be saved)

[a5m5a5d]

I think it is common for most people to only see the one side of grace. A lot of people see grace as Christ making up the difference for what we cannot possibly achieve on our own, AFTER all we can do. The other side of grace that is commonly overlooked is what our Heavenly Father has given us BEFORE all we can do, as well as while we are here on Earth on a day to day basis. We could not possibly achieve exaltation without everything we have received through the grace of Christ. On our own we wouldn't have a body, wouldn't have prophets, scriptures, knowledge, money to pay tithing, food, shelter, emotions, agency, the opportunity of life, etc.... All these things have been given to us through grace, because we couldn't possibly have them on our own. Even down to the very oxygen we breathe.

[Hamba Tuhan]

The 'after all' in this verse is not a temporal marker. In other words, it is not doctrinal that grace chronologically follows after good works. Rather, 'after all' means something along the lines of 'despite.' It is by grace that we are saved after all.

[charity's child]

They are. Works don't save us, grace does and that is LDS doctrine. Of course it doesn't conflict with the BoM verse you are asking about.

After we have endured to the end (Matthew 24:12), it will be determined what kind of works we did (Matthew 25:31-46), and that will determine how much grace applies towards salvation. This results in varying degrees of salvation as taught expressly in the Bible (1 Corinthians 15:40-21 etc.) and taught by the early Christians (as anyone would expect).

Therefore works are required for salvation. Simply confessing Christ (a minimal work) will get you the lowest degree of salvation. Actually obeying the commandments of God and being valiant in testimony and living the gospel will get you eternal life (life with God as Gods). And there are variations in between and also less than the minimum salvation (permanent hell or the second death).

We just spoke of this a couple Sundays ago in SS. Actually, for the lowest degree of salvation, there is no work required. All are entitled to resurrection to the lowest degree of glory.

[Deborah]

We read in Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

So if every knee will bow how is it to happen if something more isn't required or if there isn't a time after death for further learning and repentance? Christ died so that all might live again. His sacrifice took care of the physical death for all who have lived on this earth; however, there is still the spiritual death, which involves separation from God. That is where works come in.

When Christ went to teach the Spirits in prison, or rather to organize the missionary work there, he was beginning the great work for the dead that would lead those spirits to eventually obey and confess God, but the price being their own suffering rather than the vicarious suffering of the Lord. So even after this life works will be required. I don't see how any one can read the scriptures and think that works are not needed.

[Anijen]

Hi Selah,

You know what? We never really do all that we can do anyways. Not a single person on this earth, with the exception being the Lord does all that they can do. We are always falling short of all that we can do, so grace is always there in abundance to bridge the gap.

It is not written that way in the Bible but it is in the Book of Mormon, however the Bible does tell us that our faith is dead if we do not have works, even though our works will never be enough, because none of us ever really do all that we can do. It does come very close in Matthew chapter 25:15-40 when believers are cast out because they did not accomplish certain things. Notice they were not cast out for their disbelief but for not doing certain things.

Hope this helps

Anijen

[RubyHunter]

Not to be a punk... but are we really going to rehash this.... again?

[Reklaw]

Where in the Bible does it say that we receive grace AFTER all that we ca do? I have never seen any indication of hinting of this never mind that actual words being there. Yet I hear LDS say this quite often. If Grace is truly a free gift then why are we earning it. Is it then a reward rather that a gift. If the Bible says that all of our works are like filthy rags, then how can we possibly assume that grace kicks in AFTER all that we can do.

Your definition of "saved" is flawed. Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that salvation is a one-time event. Due to the past, present, and future tenses in which it is used throughout the New Testament, we are to understand that it is a process. Nowhere does Nephi say in this verse that we only get the grace after all we can do. He says we are SAVED by grace, after all we can do. That is a big difference. "All we can do" can include both good and bad. After any and everything we can do, it is still grace that saves us. That is a very biblical doctrine. "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace" (John 1:16). Notice how we receive "grace for grace". Or Peter's words when he said, "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 3:17-18). Grace is something we grow in and allow to work in us. It is something we can also fall from as Peter indicates. The closest thing to Nephi's words is Eph. 2:8: "ye are saved by grace through faith." You can check out how I responded this here: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208680103

There was no time fir the thief in the cross to do any work. He confessed, accepted Jesus and Jesus said that on this day he would be in Paradise with him. And yes I do believe that Paradise is the same as Heaven. Will look this up in the Greek to confirm. God does in fact deem works necessary but NOT as a means to salvation but as a sign to the world that we are saved and now have this desire to do good works.

No, the Greek words for "paradise" and "heaven" are not the same. The fact that I'm copying-and-pasting my following answer from another thread is slightly irritating. This has already been answered over and over again:

We know nothing of the thief's background except that he was convicted of theft. For all we know, he could have excercised faith, repented, and been baptized prior to his capture and conviction. He accepted his punishment as just and recognized Jesus as Lord. This faith could have come long before the cross. Despite this, he is never guaranteed heaven. Christ specifically says, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus later clarifies to Mary Magdalene that "I am not yet ascended to my Father," but He was not going to "my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17). The Father is certainly in heaven, yet Christ had not ascended to His throne in the past three days. Therefore, the thief's destination could not refer to heaven. To 1st century Jews, Abraham's Bosom/Paradise was the section of Sheol/Hades (the abode of the dead) for the righteous. This was divided from Gehenna/Hell, which awaited the unrighteous dead. The Jewish audience to Luke 16's parable of Lazarus and the rich man understood that this was not a final resting place, but a waiting place prior to judgment. Your interpretation of the thief's destination is incorrect.

And I hope this isn't some drive-by posting. I expect some responses.

[MosesStone1980]

"The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ." BD

Not to excessively simplify, but grace, in essence, is the power that allows us to do ANYTHING worthwhile in this life, no?

[Bsix]

For me... "It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."...speaks of the power of Grace and limits of our own works. It does not try to claim that Grace is supported by our works.

With that said, I do accept that our works (belief, confession, acceptance, obidience, etc.) are our contribution to the faith/works formula taught by Jesus Christ and the Bible. As is clearly stated in the Bible that faith is made perfect by works...we are justified by works. Faith without works is dead. Jesus himself said that we'd be rewarded on the basis of our works.

Grace is the means by which we are saved. We are all sinners. We cannot do anything to wash away our own sins. We cannot atone for our own sins. Only the Grace of Jesus Christ can save us. However, Jesus has made us responsible for what we choose...or not...in regards to working out our salvation.

Regards,

Six

[coolrok7]

From a past thread by Bsix along with how I responded

. . .I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

Regards,

Six

Its not a matter of â??the critics of Mormonismâ? being â??ignorant or deliberately deceptiveâ?, it is interpreted by those who have authoritative positions in the Mormon Church who give meaning to it.

It starts with Joseph Smith adding the words, â??after all we can doâ? to Paulâ??s:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

The words from a Mormon proselytizing pamphlet:

You May Earn Salvation b] through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

And those high up in Mormon leadership/scholarship:

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

Eternal life is a gift, what is earned (or deserved) is eternal punishment for rejecting the Son of God who purchased us from the fall by His blood:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Mormonism apparently doesnâ??t have a high enough view of the blood of Jesus as those who do are mocked in the following way. Notice the following statement from the, â??WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRISTâ? pamphlet, under the section- Blood of Christ, it says:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose oneâ??s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (pp.19-20)

Contrast the above with the following (to believe in Jesus is not â??mere beliefâ?):

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)

The Bible teaches one can â??knowâ? that they have eternal life. In Mormonism resurrection becomes the â??giftâ? (stated above) in place of â??eternal lifeâ?:

Jesus said to him, â??Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.â? And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

â??These things I have, written to you who believe in the, name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.â?? (1 John 5:13)

Mormonism seeks to put people back under law to earn (eternal life) what canâ??t be earned/merited/worked for:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, â??it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

In Mormon teaching, the term â??exaltationâ? (godhood), is what is being earned/merited/worked for to enter the Celestial Kingdom which is their hope if they are eventually deemed worthy.

Paul argues:

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, â??BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.â? Brethren, my heartâ??s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about Godâ??s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 9:30-10:4)

More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but

rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, (Phillipians 3:

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

To work out one's salvation is not to work for salvation as it is a gift that cannot be earned/merited/worked for! Mormonism has put you back under law that Paul argued in the book of Galatians:

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, â??If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. â??But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. (Galatians 2:14-21)

[Flyonthewall]

From a past thread by Bsix along with how I responded

Its not a matter of â??the critics of Mormonismâ? being â??ignorant or deliberately deceptiveâ?, it is interpreted by those who have authoritative positions in the Mormon Church who give meaning to it.

Those in authoritative positions do not interpret it the way you do. You do seem to pull quotes out of a larger picture and spin them the way you think they mean. There is not an LDS person that has a solid foundatoin of LDS doctrine that would take the quotes you cite to mean what you say they do. The only thing your posts do is to illutstrate your ignorance of LDS doctrine.

You keep using the same quotes pulled from the same sources, spun in a manner that you think supports your interpretation of LDS doctrine, which does not line up with actual LDS doctrine.

How do you think the "judgement" will affect anyone's post-mortal life?

[Hoops22]

Well done Cool. I have no quibbles with this summation.

[lukas_s]

Well done Cool. I have no quibbles with this summation.

Of course you don't. Unfortunately, that doesn't matter, because you don't seek to represent us LDS accurately, anyway. All the times you've been corrected on our beliefs you just still expound the same falsehoods, or give your signature of approval when somebody else expounds falsehoods

[Hoops22]

We read in Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." So if every knee will bow how is it to happen if something more isn't required or if there isn't a time after death for further learning and repentance? Christ died so that all might live again. His sacrifice took care of the physical death for all who have lived on this earth; however, there is still the spiritual death, which involves separation from God. That is where works come in. When Christ went to teach the Spirits in prison, or rather to organize the missionary work there, he was beginning the great work for the dead that would lead those spirits to eventually obey and confess God, but the price being their own suffering rather than the vicarious suffering of the Lord. So even after this life works will be required. I don't see how any one can read the scriptures and think that works are not needed.

So Lds see any distinction between sinlessness and righteousness? That may play apart if muddling through this subject.

Of course you don't. Unfortunately, that doesn't matter, because you don't seek to represent us LDS accurately, anyway. All the times you've been corrected on our beliefs you just still expound the same falsehoods, or give your signature of approval when somebody else expounds falsehoods

I do seek to do so. But I also recognize the difference between what is promulgated and what is practiced.

[daz2]

If "grace" is treated as the part God contributes, and "works" is treated as the part humans contribute, then saying that salvation (or exaltation) is entirely attributable to "grace" (God) and not attributable in anyway to "works" (human choices) leads ineluctably to the Calvinist formulation of TULIP. It denies entirely the free will of human beings--God decides who to save, without regard to human choices.

This is where Arminius diverges from strict Calvinism, in that he allows a human contribution to salvation (or exaltation)--the choice to believe or to accept Jesus. This is a "work" in the sense that it is an "action" and "choice" freely chosen on the part of a human.

I think Arminianism is prevalent even among evangelicals today (albeit there still remain a fair number of strict Calvinists).

Once we acknowledge that there is an element of "choice" by humans in an orthodox soteriology, that even God cannot or will not save (or exalt) someone unless they of their own free will believe or accept Christ, then we can no longer can say that salvation (or exaltation) is entirely attributable to "grace" (or to God). (That is why some strict Calvinists probably consider Arminianism a heresy.)

At that point, the debate becomes how much of a human contribution is required to be saved (or exalted)?

Jesus answered it this way in Matthew 25:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[lukas_s]

I do seek to do so. But I also recognize the difference between what is promulgated and what is practiced.

You do seek to do so? So how about actually doing it, then? Just because you take quotes out of context and read them with an already pretty obvious bias doesn't mean what you're promulgating is truth. Have you listened to any recent General Conference talks? Attended an LDS ward recently? All I ever see brought up are out-of-context quotes from the past, when we LDS believe in a progressive faith. Had we not had the belief in continuing revelation since the beginning we'd all be sitting next to you in one of the thousands of other 'mainstream' Christian faiths.

It would be just as easy to find so-called "damning" quotes from Christian history or even the history of your own particular denomination. Would it be fair for me to argue with you about the past if you believed the biblical notion of "line upon line?" Would it be fair for me to ask what exactly you believe, and then after getting an answer, go about telling you what you REALLY believe?

I think not.