Mormonism and the Trinity

[BoMan]

I've written a book on the question of whether Mormons are Christian, entitled Offenders for a Word. You're welcome to attempt to refute its arguments with solid evidence and logic. Until then, your dogmatic summary assertion that Mormons aren't Christians is worth somewhat less than the electrons you use to post it.

I can appreciate your efforts of defending LDS as Christian. I have had the pleasure of doing so since my mission in Virginia in 1980. The song remains the same. I no longer debate or even discus the point. Today I love to simply embrace the wonderful truth that I am not christian, I AM LDS. The fact that the "christian" world wants to call me different is just another testament to me of the "Great" apostasy and the restored gospel.

Thanks for the thread. It has been fun to read and reminisce.

In Jesus

[Tanyan]

Hi Tanyan. I briefly skimmed through it earlier this evening (more later, perhaps in another thread if Dr. Peterson objects to it). My response and clarification was in the context of Dr. Peterson's last line of his article he provided (as I have not read the article as I don't think it is available to me as of yet).

In light of the subject of "Mormonism and the Trinity" and what I do know about it based on my 30 plus years in learning things "Mormon" from Mormons and their own writings, I would not dispute his right to put forth his arguement. What I do know of Mormonism and it's proselytizing efforts I gave a personal response to what he stated. Am I not allowed to do that without my integrity being challenged right off the bat?

As D.R Phil [A Baptist Man] would say - "The Best predictor of future behavior is past behaviour" and your history of being banned several times for your comments in your posts in the past. Let me give you a BIG HUG ! [ You seemed to have a problem with the Hug I gave you some time ago at the Mariners LDS/Evangelical Dialogue as you gave me a look of utter Dismay] but I forgive you.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[mfbukowski]

Sorry you feel that way, but in context with Dan's conclusion this debate and the hundred or so other "trinity" threads on this site, show very clearly that his conclusion is in error. This is not derailing his thread, it is simply disagreeing with his conclusion. Do you expect everyone to just say gee Dan your right?

It's very easy to make it a personal thing in stead of just discussing the facts. I am still very interested in you view that LDS members believe God is one God in three persons, was that a typo?

If you are not aware of the BOM quotes on one God in three persons, go look them up. Just go to lds.org and search the BOM for "one God".

But if you were a member for 34 years, I don't know how you wouldn't know that. It is taught in primary.

I don't know how you could decide that Dr Peterson's conclusions are wrong when you haven't even read his paper. You are not interested in genuine dialogue.

Have you heard of the concept of "social trinity?" It fits extremely with LDS doctrine, especially as doctrinally supported with those passages in the BOM.

NOW TO EVERYONE ELSE ON THE THREAD:

Why don't we just discuss the idea of the "social trinity" until we read Dr. Peterson's article?

I am looking forward to receiving my copy soon. Obviously it will take a bit of time after that to digest the 43 pages.

It is clear to me that the notion that the Trinity is one in "being" or "substance" is untenable. It is a relic of medieval philosophy which really has no meaning. No one can define either term; even Aquinas' definition begged the question and was just a postulate. It is like saying "the car is red by virtue of its quality of redness", and then postulating that there existed a "quality" called "redness". Neo platonic nonsense!

The concept that "God is love" is highly scriptural and fits well with the LDS understanding of family loving relationships which unify us in our purposes and motivate us to become more than we are alone. Even atheists love their families and would die for them (generally speaking) and understand that these relationships are enobling. If there is anything "religious" in what atheists typically find valuable, it is in family relationships, which to me proves that love itself carries with it feelings that in themselves are close to "religious". Love and family relationships are something universally understood and valued

The relationships of service we find in families teach us more about the savior. The notion that the unifying factor in all human relationships is love is itself to me virtually self evident. So the notion that this would apply to God to me is very clear.

[Doctor Steuss]

I'm having difficulty finding the link to where you can purchase issues of Element on the website.

???

[mfbukowski]

???

I'm joining so that can only be done by paper and snailmail, I guess that is the case for the individual copies too.

[Doctor Steuss]

I'm joining so that can only be done by paper and snailmail, I guess that is the case for the individual copies too.

*Grumble*

I need the instant gratification of an online order...

[mfbukowski]

*Grumble*

I need the instant gratification of an online order...

I know. They really should incorporate that. Everybody's used to that nowadays-- they would get more orders that way I am sure, and it's not that hard to set up.

[Calm]

Sorry it took so long to get back, I would be interested if you find it sounds like it would be good to know about. When he speaks of Eastern and Western religion is he speaking of Eastern and Western Christians, or is he including others (Hindu, Chinese etc)

Got some family stuff going so it may be a bit before I dig it out.

He would probably class Christians from whereever these days as a Western religion, Eastern would be Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, etc.

[Markk]

If you are not aware of the BOM quotes on one God in three persons, go look them up. Just go to lds.org and search the BOM for "one God".

But if you were a member for 34 years, I don't know how you wouldn't know that. It is taught in primary.

I don't know how you could decide that Dr Peterson's conclusions are wrong when you haven't even read his paper. You are not interested in genuine dialogue.

Have you heard of the concept of "social trinity?" It fits extremely with LDS doctrine, especially as doctrinally supported with those passages in the BOM.

NOW TO EVERYONE ELSE ON THE THREAD:

Why don't we just discuss the idea of the "social trinity" until we read Dr. Peterson's article?

I am looking forward to receiving my copy soon. Obviously it will take a bit of time after that to digest the 43 pages.

It is clear to me that the notion that the Trinity is one in "being" or "substance" is untenable. It is a relic of medieval philosophy which really has no meaning. No one can define either term; even Aquinas' definition begged the question and was just a postulate. It is like saying "the car is red by virtue of its quality of redness", and then postulating that there existed a "quality" called "redness". Neo platonic nonsense!

The concept that "God is love" is highly scriptural and fits well with the LDS understanding of family loving relationships which unify us in our purposes and motivate us to become more than we are alone. Even atheists love their families and would die for them (generally speaking) and understand that these relationships are enobling. If there is anything "religious" in what atheists typically find valuable, it is in family relationships, which to me proves that love itself carries with it feelings that in themselves are close to "religious". Love and family relationships are something universally understood and valued

The relationships of service we find in families teach us more about the savior. The notion that the unifying factor in all human relationships is love is itself to me virtually self evident. So the notion that this would apply to God to me is very clear.

HI Buk,

Who is the one God that is in three persons? I was never really taught "BOM theology" ( in context with the verses in question) so to speak, I was taught that there is one Godhead for this earth which consist of three gods who are only one in purpose.

The BOM verses you speak of along with the statement of the witnesses are problematic to most saints I have discuused this with, and there is much written on the subject explaining away the "one" part.

So again who is the one God that is in three persons, I believe that is a fair question? If you meant to say that there is one Godhead with three gods who act in one purpose, then I would understand that as a LDS teaching and what I was taught in primary, and what I was taught by my parents.

Thanks

Mark

John 1:12

[zerinus]

HI Buk,

Who is the one God that is in three persons? I was never really taught "BOM theology" ( in context with the verses in question) so to speak, I was taught that there is one Godhead for this earth which consist of three gods who are only one in purpose.

There is no such thing as â??one Godhead for this earthâ?. There is â??one Godheadâ? period.

So again who is the one God that is in three persons, I believe that is a fair question?

There is no such thing as â??one God in three personsâ?. There is â??one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by himâ? (1 Corinthians 8:6).

[Markk]

Hi Z,

I believe that there is â??one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by himâ? (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

So with these verses I guess you are saying there are two Gods, in that the Cor. verse says that the Father is God and the Moses verse says that Jesus is the Only God. Is that correct?

Also in this context Abraham 4:1 reads..."1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. "

So here there are more Gods that were at the council. And also in the mix would have to be the Holy Ghost.

So in context with LDS scripture how many Gods do you believe there are? This is important to know when we discuss our views on the nature of God.

Thanks, Take Care

Mark

John 1:12

[zerinus]

Hi Z,

So with these verses I guess you are saying there are two Gods, in that the Cor. verse says that the Father is God and the Mses verse says that Jesus is the Only God. Is that correct?

Actually no. Both verses say that the Father only is God.

Also inthis context Abraham 4:1 reads..."1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. "

So here there are more Gods that were at the council. And also in the mix would have to be the Holy Ghost.

So in context with LDS scripure how many Gods do you believe there are? This is important to know when we discuss are views on the nature of God.

I donâ??t know how many gods there are. Paul says there are â??gods many and lords manyâ? (1 Corinthians 8:5). They are gods by grace, by the will of the Father, and mercy and grace of Jesus Christ. But in reality there is only â??one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by himâ? (1 Corinthians 8:6).

[Markk]

Hi Z

Actually no. Both verses say that the Father only is God.

According to LDS theology the God of the OT is Jehovah (Jesus), I was taught that it was Jesus not the Father that talked to Moses on the mount, Read the foot notes on Exodus 3:6 of the LDS OT. On this line, according to LDS theology, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is Jesus and the only God who Israel is to worship. So either way at least two gods here.

I donâ??t know how many gods there are. Paul says there are â??gods many and lords manyâ? (1 Corinthians 8:5). They are gods by grace, by the will of the Father, and mercy and grace of Jesus Christ. But in reality there is only â??one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by himâ? (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Here is the verse's in full, in context.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are dall things, and we by him.

In context Paul is talking about those who sell sacrificed meat at the pagan temples, and says very clearly that these gods were idols (false gods) and said there are many of these false gods, but that to "us" (believers) there is but one God and one Lord.( which we will discuss at length). So while I concede that LDS theology teaches that there are many, many gods, this verse is speaking of false gods in which the pagan sell meat that was sacrificed to these idols.

So far, is it safe to say that LDS theology demands that there are gods beyond count and that many of these gods created this earth and that Jesus was the God of the OT ( the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) and the Father was the head of this council that created this earth?

Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is a God?

Thanks for sticking with me here

take care

MG

[mfbukowski]

Who is the one God that is in three persons?

Same one all of us christians worship. "Who" is that?

And regarding "gods" read this, and don't bother me til you understand it.

[clairc829]

Got some family stuff going so it may be a bit before I dig it out.

He would probably class Christians from whereever these days as a Western religion, Eastern would be Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, etc.

[/quote

I'm not very familiar with the Eastern Religions. Would be interesting to learn a little about them. Went to school with some Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox, I'm from a mining town and they were too poor for parochial school, the RC even tried an experiment with (Seminary like) released time classes in religion. That was after I graduated and it didn't last too long.

[mfbukowski]

Lest we forget: (Underlining added)

Alma 11:44

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mosiah 15

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall bcome down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

2 Ne. 31: 21

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Morm. 7: 7

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Do you think maybe it says they are "one God"? Or is the Book of Mormon not doctrinal?

[zerinus]

Hi Z

According to LDS theology the God of the OT is Jehovah (Jesus), I was taught that it was Jesus not the Father that talked to Moses on the mount, Read the foot notes on Exodus 3:6 of the LDS OT. On this line, according to LDS theology, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is Jesus and the only God who Israel is to worship. So either way at least two gods here.

LDS theology is determined by LDS scripture, not the other way round. The context of Moses 1:6 makes it clear that it is the Father that is speaking, not the Son. Although Jesus was the deity that appeared to the OT prophets on most occasions, it does not rule out the possibility of the Father apering to them as well. Moses 1:6 makes it clear that it is the Father that is speaking.

Here is the verse's in full, in context.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are dall things, and we by him.

In context Paul is talking about those who sell sacrificed meat at the pagan temples, and says very clearly that these gods were idols (false gods) and said there are many of these false gods, but that to "us" (believers) there is but one God and one Lord.( which we will discuss at length). So while I concede that LDS theology teaches that there are many, many gods, this verse is speaking of false gods in which the pagan sell meat that was sacrificed to these idols.

Then you didnâ??t read the verses very carefully. In verse 5 it says there are gods in heaven as well as on earth. Earthly idols do not exist in heaven. He is talking about different kinds of gods than the earthly idols he is has mentioned in the previous verses.

So far, is it safe to say that LDS theology demands that there are gods beyond count and that many of these gods created this earth . . .

Wrong! God the Father created all things by Jesus Christ, who may have had others to assist Him. That includes this earth. How many other gods there are I have no idea.

. . . and that Jesus was the God of the OT (the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) and the Father was the head of this council that created this earth?

God the Father is the supreme deity of all the universe, not just of this earth; and He created all things, including this earth, by the Son, who may have had others to assist Him. Jesus is the deity that appeared to the OT prophets on most occasions; but that does not mean that the Father didnâ??t.

Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is a God?

I believe that the Holy Ghost is a divine being.

[mfbukowski]

Definitely not. I was just rereading Joseph Campbell's Masks of God and he believed, IIRC, that this is the original/fundamental/core split between Eastern and Westren religion---in the West, God is creator, man is the creature and they are separate, never to be completely one in an ultimate sense; in the East this separation never occurred (he believed this is the original religious view...again IIRC) man is part of the divine, Man is God, etc.

Campbell is not my favorite, but he was right in this. Yes, he was referring to eastern religions and philosophically I think we Mormons could learn much from eastern religions in framing the concepts of the divine in man. They do not believe in a personal God in the sense we do typically, but they really understand that spark of divinity in each of us that can grow eternally beyond death, and they have some good insights on mechanical exercises to help us along the path. I studied Zen for a while in my search before I found the church, and still meditate regularly, but I have modified the meditiation and christinaized it somewhat. I think meditating with mantras is really more self-hypnosis, but the goal should be to open the mind to God, separation from worldly thoughts, and the ability to control one's emotions -- all of those can be achieved through meditation.

Edit: Also the notion of man as the creator in eastern thought has resonance with LDS thought in the sense that it is man who brings order to the chaos of the universe. Every act of perception requires us to somehow take in light reflections from hundreds of sources and sort that chaotic energy into a perception that makes sense. We look and clouds and see pictures of castles and animals etc- we stare into the flames of a fire or contemplate the ocean, all with our inate sense to make order out of chaos. So for eastern religion, all is illusion, and the only truth to be found comes from rising above the illusion of the world, and understanding the god-spirit in ourselves. So the notion of man as creator is related to our "Man of Holiness" as creator and organizer of the universe. And we are all mini-creators organizing our own little perceptions and "worlds" in that sense. Not in the sense we get our own "world" as the critics here misunderstand. We are always subject to God, but his generosity allows us to participate with him in rewards we cannot even fathom.

[Markk]

Same one all of us christians worship. "Who" is that?

And regarding "gods" read this, and don't bother me til you understand it.

Hi BUK,

I have discussed the issue ( your url) with David many times, he's wrong and we can discuss it any time you like, it makes for a great discussion.

Same one all of us Christians worship. "Who" is that?

And who is that, why can't you just tell me who the one God that is in three persons is? It shouldn't be that difficult. Is it Elohim that is in three persons, or is it Jehovah, the Spirit of God, or the HG...

Anyway, if you want to discuss let me know, if not I understand.

take care

MG

[Markk]

Hi Z,

LDS theology is determined by LDS scripture, not the other way round. The context of Moses 1:6 makes it clear that it is the Father that is speaking, not the Son. Although Jesus was the deity that appeared to the OT prophets on most occasions, it does not rule out the possibility of the Father apering to them as well. Moses 1:6 makes it clear that it is the Father that is speaking.

Are you saying that the Bible is not reliable in this case and not LDS scripture, I'm not sure what you meant when you wrote ..."LDS theology is determined by LDS scripture, not the other way round..."

LDS theology teaches that Jesus is the eternal Father ...Mosiah 15 "Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen. "

Ether 3:14 "Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."

You claim that Jesus is only a deity which is skirting LDS theology. Jesus is the GOD of AIJ, the GOD of the OT, LDS Prophets and Apostles have taught this over and over. Why do you choose to use the word deity or the word God, when LDS scripture over and over clearly say that Jesus is God?

It's confusing and a mess, but the point I am making is that there at least 2 Gods at this point of our discussion according to LDS theology Elohim and Jehovah.

Then you didnâ??t read the verses very carefully. In verse 5 it says there are gods in heaven as well as on earth. Earthly idols do not exist in heaven. He is talking about different kinds of gods than the earthly idols he is has mentioned in the previous verses.

No, it says that there is no other God than one. If you are going to take this as a literal meaning, that there are many gods, then you have to take it that these gods in heaven were who the sacrifices were being offered to. That would mean these gods were naked ladies, bulls, Zeus, Nana...etc. Paul made it clear that these sacrifices were offered to idols, the Temple of Diana was a draw for the pagan selling there idols and goods and as in the context of the text, their meat that was sacrifices to these gods (false gods).

Wrong! God the Father created all things by Jesus Christ, who may have had others to assist Him. That includes this earth. How many other gods there are I have no idea.

Not according to LDS theology, LDS cannon says... 1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. (abraham 4;1)

You can not escape this fact, you may not believe it, and I hope you don't, but LDS theology demands that the God's created the heavens and this earth.

If they assisted him then they are co creators, they all said let there be light...etc.

God the Father is the supreme deity of all the universe, not just of this earth; and He created all things, including this earth, by the Son, who may have had others to assist Him. Jesus is the deity that appeared to the OT prophets on most occasions; but that does not mean that the Father didnâ??t.

CFR please. I can show you teachings from LDS leaders that would disagree with that. It flys in the face of the ELOP.

I believe that the Holy Ghost is a divine being.

Define divine being, is a divine being a God? What I'm trying to do is define what you believe so we can get along with the discussion. Is the HG God, a yes or no will do?

Thanks, enjoying this discussion.

MG

[mfbukowski]

I have discussed the issue ( your url) with David many times, he's wrong and we can discuss it any time you like, it makes for a great discussion.

And who is that, why can't you just tell me who the one God that is in three persons is? It shouldn't be that difficult. Is it Elohim that is in three persons, or is it Jehovah, the Spirit of God, or the HG...

Anyway, if you want to discuss let me know, if not I understand.

There is nothing to discuss. I asked you a question and you didn't answer it. Who is the one God in three persons? Father, Son, or Holy Ghost? It shouldn't be that difficult.

You remind me a lot of Billy, who is no longer with us. He also alleged to be a member for years, but knew nothing of the gospel. Even the 34 years sounds familiar, but I can't place it. Maybe somebody who has been at this longer can help.

[Markk]

There is nothing to discuss. I asked you a question and you didn't answer it. Who is the one God in three persons? Father, Son, or Holy Ghost? It shouldn't be that difficult.

You remind me a lot of Billy, who is no longer with us. He also alleged to be a member for years, but knew nothing of the gospel. Even the 34 years sounds familiar, but I can't place it. Maybe somebody who has been at this longer can help.

Hi Buk,

I didn't say it Buk, you did, thats why I asked the question, I am not even sure what you are talking about, I told you what I believed as a member, why can't you. You can attack me and my past thats OK I understand, when one can't answer what they believe, it means they most likely don't know what they believe or why. At any rate if you like I will answer any question you like, I'll be more than happy, right or wrong to tell you what I believe and why I believe it. As far as your question you asked me, again I didn't say it you did?

Take care

MG

[mfbukowski]

I didn't say it Buk, you did, thats why I asked the question, I am not even sure what you are talking about, I told you what I believed as a member, why can't you.

Unbelievable. Un-Believ-able. You started it, my point was that you couldn't answer the same question you were asking me, and then suddenly you say that I started the question and you don't even know what I am talking about.

Your entire approach is disengenuous and manipulative, and if I had my way you'd be banned. You are just wasting people's time, and then when you can't answer the question, you deny that you even asked it! I have never seen ANYTHING so blatant on any board I have ever been on in my life.

HI Buk,

Who is the one God that is in three persons? I was never really taught "BOM theology" ( in context with the verses in question) so to speak, I was taught that there is one Godhead for this earth which consist of three gods who are only one in purpose.

Question 1- notice who asks it.

Same one all of us christians worship. "Who" is that?

In other words - you can't answer the question either!

And who is that, why can't you just tell me who the one God that is in three persons is? It shouldn't be that difficult.

You re-iterate the same stupid question.

There is nothing to discuss. I asked you a question and you didn't answer it. Who is the one God in three persons? Father, Son, or Holy Ghost? It shouldn't be that difficult.

I respond using your exact tone, you still haven't answered.

I didn't say it Buk, you did, thats why I asked the question, I am not even sure what you are talking about, I told you what I believed as a member, why can't you.

And now suddenly you forget who started it, and what the question was at all.

Goodbye forever. I'm sure you will come back with your usual snarky answer "Well, ok, I understand, if you don't know your doctrine...."

Unbelievable.

[Markk]

Hi Buk,

This is what you said, this is what started it, See Post 51:

We believe in one God in three persons who are one in purpose. If you have ever read the Book of Mormon, you would know that. The council of the gods is a biblical position. If you ever read the bible you would know that.

I then asked you several times who was this one God that was in three persons. I don't believe that, nor do I even understand that belief, nor was I ever taught that. I explained what I was taught when I was a member which was that there were three Gods, who acted as "one God" in purpose.

Your right that I couldn't and can't answer the same question that I was asking you and it is because you said the quote above, not me, it's your claim what LDS members believe, not my belief. I asked you if it was a typo, twice, but apparently it was not in that you did not agree....so I hope you understand a little better now.

So go back and read post 51, maybe you forgot what you wrote?

Thanks take care

MG

[zerinus]

Hi Z,

Are you saying that the Bible is not reliable in this case and not LDS scripture, I'm not sure what you meant when you wrote ..."LDS theology is determined by LDS scripture, not the other way round..."

LDS theology teaches that Jesus is the eternal Father ...Mosiah 15 "Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen. "

Ether 3:14 "Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."

You claim that Jesus is only a deity which is skirting LDS theology. Jesus is the GOD of AIJ, the GOD of the OT, LDS Prophets and Apostles have taught this over and over. Why do you choose to use the word deity or the word God, when LDS scripture over and over clearly say that Jesus is God?

It's confusing and a mess, but the point I am making is that there at least 2 Gods at this point of our discussion according to LDS theology Elohim and Jehovah.

No, it says that there is no other God than one. If you are going to take this as a literal meaning, that there are many gods, then you have to take it that these gods in heaven were who the sacrifices were being offered to. That would mean these gods were naked ladies, bulls, Zeus, Nana...etc. Paul made it clear that these sacrifices were offered to idols, the Temple of Diana was a draw for the pagan selling there idols and goods and as in the context of the text, their meat that was sacrifices to these gods (false gods).

Not according to LDS theology, LDS cannon says... 1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. (abraham 4;1)

You can not escape this fact, you may not believe it, and I hope you don't, but LDS theology demands that the God's created the heavens and this earth.

If they assisted him then they are co creators, they all said let there be light...etc.

CFR please. I can show you teachings from LDS leaders that would disagree with that. It flys in the face of the ELOP.

Define divine being, is a divine being a God? What I'm trying to do is define what you believe so we can get along with the discussion. Is the HG God, a yes or no will do?

Thanks, enjoying this discussion.

MG

We believe that there is one supreme being, Deity, God, Who is God above all, by comparison to Whom there is â??no other Godâ? (Moses 1:6). We also believe that the highest form of salvation that God can bestow on mankind entails their deification, hence there are also â??many gods;â? but they receive their exaltation and deification by grace from Him, and He remains the supreme Deity above all. Hence in one sense of the term there is only one God, who is the Father; and in another sense more than one god.

As regards the verses in the Book of Mormon in which Jesus is referred to as the Father, the Church has already given the answer to that question with which I presume you are already familiar. There are several ways in which Jesus can be called the Father: Father as creator (Mosiah 3:; Father as Savior, Redeemer, giver of life (D&C 25:1; 34:3; 76:24); and Father because He â??gave [Him] of His fullnessâ? (D&C 93:4).

Now, so far in all the discussions I have had with you, you have skirted round the edges, and have not got down to the real business of the debate. Instead of sneaking around and being evasive, why donâ??t you get to the bottom line, and tell us exactly what it is in LDS theology that you are actually objecting to, and why?