Mt. Zerin moved by the Brother of Jared

[Sevenbak]

Here is the short, passing reference:

Ether 12:30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Removeâ??and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

He moved a mountain with faith, but was it here, or in the old world, and why? Obviously there had to be a good reason.

Did JS say anything else on this matter, similar to when he gave the Mohonri Moriancumr name incident? It would be nice to know specifics if they exist.

[Tarski]

Here is the short, passing reference:

Ether 12:30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Removeâ??and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

He moved a mountain with faith, but was it here, or in the old world, and why? Obviously there had to be a good reason.

Did JS say anything else on this matter, similar to when he gave the Mohonri Moriancumr name incident? It would be nice to know specifics if they exist.

Very good!

I forgot all about this.

I now want to know what the Mormon intellectuals/apologists think. Hamblin, Bokovoy, Peterson, Gardner, etc.

Did some ancient man who was the brother Jared remove a mountain somewhere in one of the American continents by merely speaking or telling the mountain to be removed?

In other words, do you take this literally??

[BCSpace]

It's mentioned in Lectures on Faith....

[Lec 1:19] Moroni, while abridging and compiling the record of his fathers, has given us the following account of faith as the principle of power: He says, (Book of Mormon)â?  page 746 (Ether 5:14)â? , that it was the faith of Alma and Amulek which caused the walls of the prison to be rent, as recorded on the 356th page (Alma 10:77-85)â? ; that it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi which caused a change to be wrought upon the hearts of the Lamanites when they were immersed with the Holy Spirit, and with fire, as seen on the 747th page (Ether 5:15; also Helaman 2:79-118)â? ; and that it was by faith that the mountain Zerin was removed, when the Brother of Jared spake in the name of the Lord. See also 748th page (Ether 5:30-31)â? .

..but no additional details seem forthcomming.

[Sevenbak]

Very good!

I forgot all about this.

I now want to know what the Mormon intellectuals/apologists think. Hamblin, Bokovoy, Peterson, Gardner, etc.

Did some ancient man who was the brother Jared remove a mountain somewhere in one of the American continents by merely speaking or telling the mountain to be removed?

In other words, do you take this literally??

Yes I do, don't you take Jesus literally?

Matt. 17: 20.

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

[Gillebre]

Yes. It is a literal statement, in my opinion. But I'm not on that list.

[Sevenbak]

It's mentioned in Lectures on Faith....

..but no additional details seem forthcomming.

Thanks. I can't find anything else either.

On the subject though, we know Enoch moved mountains too.

[Tarski]

Yes I do, don't you take Jesus literally?

Matt. 17: 20.

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

No, not in this case. This is obviously hyperbole and/or metaphor.

But the Brother of Jared thing clearly is to be taken literally. (yet didn't happen)

[Sevenbak]

No, not in this case. This obviously hyperbole and/or metaphor.

This is obviously no such thing.

[Tarski]

This is obviously no such thing.

I know how you feel and I expected it. I want to know about the big boys I listed.

[Sevenbak]

I know how you feel and I expected it. I want to know about the big boys I listed.

No one is a "bigger boy" than Christ, and you are denying it is possible, even though he clearly uses it as an example of the realities of faith. Why do you deny what he said to be a possibility?

[Sevenbak]

Another intesting citation here, this time the prophet Nephi, one of the disciples of Christ.

Helaman 10:

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.

9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.

10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

11 And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction.

[Sargon]

It might be literal, but I also see a great potential for it being a myth. The Brother of Jared lived hundreds of years before Ether, and all sorts of myths may have arisen about his ministry.

[Tarski]

No one is a "bigger boy" than Christ, and you are denying it is possible, even though he clearly uses it as an example of the realities of faith. Why do you deny what he said to be a possibility?

I think someone would have noticed. It would be much bigger than a solar eclipse and would have been wirtten down.

Plus, I think belief in such things without evidence is irrational.

Also, why are they moving mountains around? Just for fun or to show off? No mention of a reason is given.

[Sevenbak]

I think belief in such things without evidence is irrational.

Also, why are the moving mountains around?

1. Belief in anything without evidence is irrational. Thus the religiously inclined are mocked. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

2. And yes, that's the reason for this thread, I'm asking the who what where why how...

[Sevenbak]

Just for fun or to show off?

If the brother of Jaredâ??s mighty faith was only the size of a mustard seed, then mine must still be microscopic.

Yours? Got an electron microscope?

[Sargon]

I think someone would have noticed. It would be much bigger than a solar eclipse and would have been wirtten down.

Plus, I think belief in such things without evidence is irrational.

Also, why are they moving mountains around? Just for fun or to show off? No mention of a reason is given.

Although I tend to believe it is a false myth that Ether believed, I don't think the reasons you give for it being false are too strong.

As you know, we have next to zero written records from Mesoamerica in the time period of the Jaredites. Even if something catastrophic like this happened, we should not expect to find a written record of it (unless you count the BoM, of course).

As for believing in things without evidence for them, it seems reasonable that if the cumulative effect of a person's study has led to conclude that the BoM is probably true, it doesn't seem too irrational for them to believe that the bro of Jared actually did move the mountain.

I'm not sure why a mountain would have been moved, there is no reason given for it.

[Sevenbak]

I think someone would have noticed. It would be much bigger than a solar eclipse and would have been wirtten down.

Forgot to address this. We know the Jaredites left Babel into "that quarter where there never had man been." So who was there to witness it and write it down, besides Jared, who obviously did? We just have a passing mention if it by Moroni. The 24 plates of Ether was a small abridgment, not the complete record.

Although I tend to believe it is a false myth that Ether believed, I don't think the reasons you give for it being false are too strong.As you know, we have next to zero written records from Mesoamerica in the time period of the Jaredites. Even if something catastrophic like this happened, we should not expect to find a written record of it (unless you count the BoM, of course).As for believing in things without evidence for them, it seems reasonable that if the cumulative effect of a person's study has led to conclude that the BoM is probably true, it doesn't seem too irrational for them to believe that the bro of Jared actually did move the mountain.I'm not sure why a mountain would have been moved, there is no reason given for it.

I'm curious as to why you think it was a myth, perpetuated by Ether?

And why do you think it happened in Mesoamerica, as opposed to all the time they were traveling before coming here?

[Sevenbak]

OK, one more little example and reference to throw into the pile. This is Moroni talking about the faith of previous great prophets before him. The who is unknown, but the reference to mountain moving is there nonetheless. I suspect he's talking about the 3 Nehites here, since we know they went through furnaces and were thrown in with beasts, etc.

Mormon 8:24 And he knoweth their prayers, that they were in behalf of their brethren. And he knoweth their faith, for in his name could they remove mountains; and in his name could they cause the earth to shake; and by the power of his word did they cause prisons to tumble to the earth; yea, even the fiery furnace could not harm them, neither wild beasts nor poisonous serpents, because of the power of his word.

[Sargon]

I'm curious as to why you think it was a myth, perpetuated by Ether?

And why do you think it happened in Mesoamerica, as opposed to all the time they were traveling before coming here?

Well, I'm just one of those Mormons who believes in a 4.5 billion year old earth, that evolution is probable, that the flood (if there really was one) was local, and in general I consider many of the ancient legends to not be literal. I indicated that Ether believed the legend, but I was mistaken. It is Moroni writing this passage. I don't suggest that Moroni knowingly perpetuated falsehood, he surely believed it was true. It is just that thousands of years passed between Jared and Moroni, and that is plenty of time for a myth like that to develop.

I suppose it needn't be in Mesoamerica, but I find it likely since the brother of Jared developed his faith most strongly after his initial experiences in the Old World, and during his travels to the New World.

[a5m5a5d]

I'm not sure why a mountain would have been moved, there is no reason given for it.

Maybe because it was in the way????... you try climbing mountains.

Heck, if I had the faith of the brother of Jared i'd move it too.

Or perhaps it was removed so it would be written down so we in the latter-days could read it and learn of faith. Wasn't the BoM written for US?

[structurecop]

Mormon 8:24 And he knoweth their prayers, that they were in behalf of their brethren. And he knoweth their faith, for in his name could they remove mountains; and in his name could they cause the earth to shake; and by the power of his word did they cause prisons to tumble to the earth; yea, even the fiery furnace could not harm them, neither wild beasts nor poisonous serpents, because of the power of his word.

Hmm... a lot of faithless saints we have these days. I haven't seen anyone move so much as a river rock through their faith. Do you think that it is a good use of God's telekinetic powers, moving inanimate objects around Yoda style?

Edited to add: I forgot that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after signs. Maybe there were some villages full of adulterers and other wicked folks watching as God moved the mountain.

[Brant Gardner]

Very good!

I forgot all about this.

I now want to know what the Mormon intellectuals/apologists think. Hamblin, Bokovoy, Peterson, Gardner, etc.

Did some ancient man who was the brother Jared remove a mountain somewhere in one of the American continents by merely speaking or telling the mountain to be removed?

In other words, do you take this literally??

Here is what I said about it:

It is not clear what Moroni meant by the brother of Jaredâ??s removal of Mount Zerin. One possibility might be a volcanic event such as Mount St. Helens. However, most of the mountain remained, even after the gigantic explosion.

Redaction: Moroni does not explain this incident, apparently assuming that his readers are already familiar with it; but it is recorded only here. We may safely assume that Ether included it on his plates, as that is the only known record of the brother of Jared. The fact that Moroni mentions it here continues to confirm his heavy editing of and lengthy omissions from the brother of Jaredâ??s story.

So, the answer is, I didn't say much. As you may infer, I read this as an elaboration of an event that had a more natural explanation.

[Sevenbak]

Maybe because it was in the way????... you try climbing mountains.

Heck, if I had the faith of the brother of Jared i'd move it too.

Or perhaps it was removed so it would be written down so we in the latter-days could read it and learn of faith. Wasn't the BoM written for US?

Maybe the first barges they built were too heavy to carry over that darn mountain on the way to the big waters. ;-)

[Sevenbak]

Hmm... a lot of faithless saints we have these days. I haven't seen anyone move so much as a river rock through their faith. Do you think that it is a good use of God's telekinetic powers, moving inanimate objects around Yoda style?

Edited to add: I forgot that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after signs. Maybe there were some villages full of adulterers and other wicked folks watching as God moved the mountain.

Are you saying God doesn't move stuff around defying gravity and physics?

As one who has personally witnessed his companion and his bicycle moving up in the air and over to avoid an imminent collision with an automobile, I can most assuredly testify that he does do that very thing.

And no, I wasn't praying for it to move, I was cringing thinking my companion was a dead man. Oh me of little faith...

[Sevenbak]

Well, I'm just one of those Mormons who believes in a 4.5 billion year old earth, that evolution is probable, that the flood (if there really was one) was local, and in general I consider many of the ancient legends to not be literal. I indicated that Ether believed the legend, but I was mistaken. It is Moroni writing this passage. I don't suggest that Moroni knowingly perpetuated falsehood, he surely believed it was true. It is just that thousands of years passed between Jared and Moroni, and that is plenty of time for a myth like that to develop.

I suppose it needn't be in Mesoamerica, but I find it likely since the brother of Jared developed his faith most strongly after his initial experiences in the Old World, and during his travels to the New World.

Well, thanks for the input. I take the opposite view. None of these miraculous things make much sense to us without faith. Nor would any of them have happened without faith of those participating in said events.