Interesting Annointing Ceremony described by Cyril of Jerusalem

[mpschmitt]

I don't want this to spawn a lot of discussion about sacred things that ought not be discussed outside of sacred places, but I did want to share this item I just discovered recently that evinces ancient roots in some of Joseph Smith's Nauvoo teachings. Many of you will find this interesting (especially verse 4):

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf207.ii.xxv.html

Cyril lived from the late 4th to early 5th centuries.

This book was published in 1893.

Joseph Smith died in 1844.

[jadams_4242]

I don't want this to spawn a lot of discussion about sacred things that ought not be discussed outside of sacred places, but I did want to share this item I just discovered recently that evinces ancient roots in some of Joseph Smith's Nauvoo teachings. Many of you will find this interesting (especially verse 4):

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf207.ii.xxv.html

Cyril lived from the late 4th to early 5th centuries.

This book was published in 1893.

Joseph Smith died in 1844.

Dang ! another book from the worlds biggest library that j.S had access too!

[lostindc]

Dang ! another book from the worlds biggest library that j.S had access too!

Crap, you beat me too it...

Even though I am second I want to reemphasize that the Palmyra library by todays standards is one of the most aggressive large scale libraries in the western hemisphere. It boasts of collections that would bring an intellect to their knees.

BTW, that was a slam dunk find, thanks, I am going to start gathering these for rainy days

[kamenraider]

I noticed that the commentary in yellow on the right says: "It is clear that the Unction mentioned in these passages was conferred at the same time and place as Baptism." I think chrism was part of the confirmation after baptism.

I guess they're also given a new name (in the Eastern Churches).

They're clothed in a garment as well:

http://www.melkite.org/Baptism.html

[mfbukowski]

I don't want this to spawn a lot of discussion about sacred things that ought not be discussed outside of sacred places, but I did want to share this item I just discovered recently that evinces ancient roots in some of Joseph Smith's Nauvoo teachings. Many of you will find this interesting (especially verse 4):

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf207.ii.xxv.html

Cyril lived from the late 4th to early 5th centuries.

This book was published in 1893.

Joseph Smith died in 1844.

Here is another source for similar information. That Joseph really had an amazing library! And such an inventive mind! I guess it was all those masonic influences!

This is a fascinating site:

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopt...nfirmation.html

I am quoting a small portion to give you a taste:

THE ANOINTMENTS

The priest places his right thumb on top of the opening of the Myron bottle, and turns it downwards to wet his finger with the Myron. He then anoints the baptized as follows :

The first four anointments (eight crosses) are on the senses

Firstly, the top of the head, the nostrils, the mouth, and the right ear

Then, the right eye, the left eye, an finally the left ear

Whilst anointing, the priest says, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The anointment of grace of the Holy Spirit, Amen.”

He anoints The Head to sanctify it. The head contains the brain, where thinking takes place. It is the brain which distinguishes humankind from other creatures. A good mind is of great use and benefit to oneself and to others also. King Solomon praises the mind saying, “When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you, to deliver from the way evil” (Proverbs 2: 10-12).

Also, the Lord Jesus praised the young man who answered wisely and said to him: “You are not far from the Kingdom of God” (Mark 12:34). And St. Paul our teacher prays for us saying, “And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:7).

The Nostrils contain the sense of smell, and it is an important sense, for if a person is not careful and alert, it is possible for impure thoughts to enter ones heart through this sense. Hence, the priest anoints it to protect it against all sin and lust.

The Mouth with the tongue is the most dangerous organ in a person...

“If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless” (James 1:26).

“If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2).

“The tongue is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison, it defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire by hell” (James 3:8,6), if it is not controlled.

The Psalmist prays, “Set a guard O Lord, over my mouth. Keep watch over the door of my lips. Do not incline my heart to any evil thing” (Psalm 141:3,4)

And the wise King Solomon said: “Whoever guards his mouth and tongue keeps his soul from troubles” (Proverbs 21:23), and, “Put away from you a deceitful mouth, and put perverse lips far from you” (Proverbs 4:24. We ought to keep our tongue from sins such as swearing, insulting, lying, judging, and gossiping. Our words should always be graceful.

The Ears provide us with the important sense of hearing, which should also be controlled, and the anointing of the Myron is a strong weapon in control what we hear. We protect our ears from hearing such things as gossip, and other conversations which may poison our hearts with revenge and hatred. We also protect our ears from hearing certain songs which may poison our hearts with lustful thoughts.

The Eyes are the most important sense, through which enters more than 80% of information which may affect our hearts. If the information is holy, it sanctifies the heart, and vice versa. For this reason, we should control what we see so that we may keep ourselves pure. The tenth commandment says, “Do not covet”. The Psalmist prays, “Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things” (Psalm 119:37), and, “Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law” (Psalm 119:17).

The second group of four anointments are as follows :

The priest wets his right thumb with the Myron another time and anoints,

The heart (chest)

The navel

The back

The lower back

Whilst anointing the priest prays : “An anointment as a token for the kingdom of heaven," as this holy anointment makes the Holy Spirit works in us and prepares us for the inheritance of the Kingdom of heaven

I was confirmed as a Roman Catholic in the early 1960's and was annointed and given a new name. I have heard that the confirmation ritual has changed now. Of course I am LDS now.

[saemo]

A description of baptism and confirmation, still done in every catholic church, east and west. I was anointed on my palms and forehead. Forehead is required, other points of the body are optional. Some churches anoint several points, lips, ears, heart, shoulders, eyes, feet, etc. Some early writings indicate oil was poured over the person, drenching them completely.

We can take on the name of a patron saint. I added the name Madeleine to my name, for Mary Magdalene. I chose the name.

[Mike Reed]

There is evidence that Joseph Smith was familiar with the Catholic anointing ritual. Also, occult manuals (that also describe similar rituals) were not uncommon in Joseph Smith's day. The same manuals, in fact, that scholars believe were used to design the Smith family parchments, mars dagger, jupiter talisman, etc.

Read the annointing rituals in this book, for example: http://books.google.com/books?id=NewpGt04P...TYPES#PPA297,M1

See pages 297 and 300.

[Ipso Facto]

There is evidence that Joseph Smith was familiar with the Catholic anointing ritual. Also, occult manuals (that also describe similar rituals) were not uncommon in Joseph Smith's day. The same manuals, in fact, that scholars believe were used to design the Smith family parchments, mars dagger, jupiter talisman, etc.

Read the annointing rituals in this book, for example: http://books.google.com/books?id=NewpGt04P...TYPES#PPA297,M1

See pages 297 and 300.

Another Mike Quinn disciple dutifully spouting the appropriate talking points. (Y a w n ...)

Discerning readers ought to understand how unreliable the pathetic Quinn can truly be: That Old Black Magic

However, this tired tack entirely misses the point, which is that early Christians were clearly using these very specific kinds of anointing procedures for initiates - things supposedly stolen from Free Masonry, or just made up in the recesses of Joseph Smith's fecund imagination.

How dare those Mormons act like primitive Christianity!

[Mike Reed]

Another Mike Quinn disciple dutifully spouting the appropriate talking points. (Y a w n ...)

Oh please. Drop the moronic hyperbole. I am hardly a Quinn disciple, and I am quite aware of the fact that there are problems in Quinn's book. Those problems, however, do not negate the fact that the book is a major contribution to Mormon scholarship. Just ask Bushman, silly. Before you do, though, I'd recommend toning the rhetoric, as you may soon find your foot in a very uncomfortable position.

Discerning readers ought to understand how unreliable the pathetic Quinn can truly be: That Old Black Magic

Blah, blah, blah...

However, this tired tack entirely misses the point, which is that early Christians were clearly using these very specific kinds of anointing procedures for initiates - things supposedly stolen from Free Masonry, or just made up in the recesses of Joseph Smith's fecund imagination.

You fail to understand that when historians trace the migration of certain ideas, the possible sources from oneâ??s immediate environment takes high priority. The closer a certain element is found in a person's immediate environment, the higher probability exists that the migration path transferred from that closer source.

How dare those Mormons act like primitive Christianity!

Nobody has denied that Smith was trying to incorporate primitive Christian rituals. That isn't the question. The question is the migration path. Like I said, Smith was familiar with the Catholic anointing ritual and we also know that he (to one level or another) dabbled in folk magic. I should also add that masonic circles has similar anointing rituals too. All three of these possible sources (to secularists who tend to reject visions and seer stones as real) seem much more possible migration paths, than any kind of mysterious transfer of direct first hand knowledge from early Christianity.

[098]

Smith was familiar with the Catholic anointing ritual

CFR

[Mike Reed]

CFR

I am glad you asked, 98.

Here you go:

"Doctrine of election, sealing of the servants of God on the top of their heads. 'Tis not the cross as the Catholics would have it." (The Words of Joseph Smith, 13 August 1843, p. 239.)

[098]

Here you go:

Not impressive.

[Mike Reed]

Not impressive.

Are you under the mistaken impression that I was trying to impress you? {chuckle} Whether you are impressed or not, the evidence remains that he was at least somewhat familiar with Catholic anointings.

[Bill Hamblin]

Blah, blah, blah...

This is, without question, the most cogent response I've ever seen to criticisms of Quinn's theories.

[mfbukowski]

There is evidence that Joseph Smith was familiar with the Catholic anointing ritual. Also, occult manuals (that also describe similar rituals) were not uncommon in Joseph Smith's day. The same manuals, in fact, that scholars believe were used to design the Smith family parchments, mars dagger, jupiter talisman, etc.

Read the annointing rituals in this book, for example: http://books.google.com/books?id=NewpGt04P...TYPES#PPA297,M1

See pages 297 and 300.

There is little similarity here.

[Mike Reed]

This is, without question, the most cogent response I've ever seen to criticisms of Quinn's theories.

Ha! No offence, Bill. I wasn't directing this towards your review. It was directed at Ipso Facto's assessment that posting a link to such a huge article was somehow sufficient (and appropriate) to undermine the previous statements I made in this thread. My comments were also directed at Ipso's blanket disregard for the immense contribution that Quinn has made to Mormon studies. No doubt you have made many contributions yourself, including which you have identified several weaknesses that readers of Quinn's book should be aware of. But as I am sure you'd agree (at least I hope you would), the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater.

[Mike Reed]

There is little similarity here.

I disagree.

[mfbukowski]

I am glad you asked, 98.

Here you go:

"Doctrine of election, sealing of the servants of God on the top of their heads. 'Tis not the cross as the Catholics would have it." (The Words of Joseph Smith, 13 August 1843, p. 239.)

VERY "not impressive". Sounds like if anything, Roman Catholic confirmation which seems to be a highly abbreviated form of what the Copts do as shown in the link I provided earlier. So abbreviated as to be not even "similar" except in a very vague way.

When I was confirmed Catholic, the ritual also included a ritual touching of the cheek- a "slap" to show that one was a "soldier of Christ". The intent of that sacrament seems very different from the intent of the Coptic rite as well, the Coptic being more a blessing where the confirmation was to make one unafraid to stand up for the faith.

[mfbukowski]

I disagree.

Pouring oil over the head vs annointing specific body parts as the Copts do? How could you say they are similar other than in a vague way? The only similarity is the use of oil and the touching of the head.

One could say that the LDS blessing of the sick is similar then to Catholic confirmation as described,-- and what would that prove? But saying that LDS blessing of the sick and the Coptic annointing is similar? Come on!

[Mike Reed]

VERY "not impressive". Sounds like if anything, Roman Catholic confirmation which seems to be a highly abbreviated form of what the Copts do as shown in the link I provided earlier. So abbreviated as to be not even "similar" except in a very vague way.

You are having a hard time following this thread, aren't you? The quote I gave was merely to illustrate that Smith had a familiarity with Catholic anointings. How familiar was he, I don't know. The quote doesn't tell us. Nevertheless... the quote does allow for a possible migration path that seems much more plausible than the notion that Joseph, through mysterious and supernatural ways (independant of contemporary sourses from which to draw his inspiration/ideas), was able to tap into a source that would give him a first hand witness of what early Christians believed and practiced. As a non-believer of Mormonism, I am extremely skeptical about such miraculous claims. And I think it is safe to say that most non-Mormon historians would also be skeptical.

When I was confirmed Catholic, the ritual also included a ritual touching of the cheek- a "slap" to show that one was a "soldier of Christ". The intent of that sacrament seems very different from the intent of the Coptic rite as well, the Coptic being more a blessing where the confirmation was to make one unafraid to stand up for the faith.

So what is your point? Do you think that I am denying that Joseph Smith would have made some changes/modifications to the ritual? I would never deny this. In fact, I am quite convinced that such a notion stands in direct conflict with Smith's "restoration" of other aspects of Mormonism (whether it be his revision of the Bible, or the Endowment). Besides... I have not claimed that Smith turned to merely one source, as he developed the rituals he did. Rather, I believe the process was quite syncretic.

[Mike Reed]

Pouring oil over the head vs annointing specific body parts as the Copts do? How could you say they are similar other than in a vague way? The only similarity is the use of oil and the touching of the head.

Anointed forehead, eyes, palms, knees, feet.... wearing a white linen "close before and behind". Did you think to READ the pages I cited?

One could say that the LDS blessing of the sick is similar then to Catholic confirmation as described,-- and what would that prove? But saying that LDS blessing of the sick and the Coptic annointing is similar? Come on!

It would do you well to read source I cited before you talk.

[Mike Reed]

Anointed forehead, eyes, palms, knees, feet.... wearing a white linen "close before and behind". Did you think to READ the pages I cited?

It would do you well to read source I cited before you talk.

I've gotta get back to work now. I will come back to this thread, when and if I have time, later. Darn priorities gettin in the way again.

Here is one last quote, for now, to help you understand where I am coming from:

"{I}t is not necessary to ignore the fact that Mormonism drew for inspiration not only the Old Testament and the New, but also the American experience in general, the experiences of the family of Joseph Smith in particular, and on Masonry and certain forms of magic and folk religion as well. But it is necessary to recognize that Mormonism is derivative and synthetic only insofar and in the same fashion that other religious traditions are derivative and synthetic. Locating and identifying its components can facilitate understanding, but this approach demands acknowledgement that Mormonism cannot be reduced to the sum of its parts any more than Christianity can be reduced to the sum of its parts or Judaism to the sum of its parts." Jan Shipps, Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition, 68-69.

To Jan Shipps' statement above, I say AMEN.

[lostindc]

Pouring oil over the head vs annointing specific body parts as the Copts do? How could you say they are similar other than in a vague way? The only similarity is the use of oil and the touching of the head.

One could say that the LDS blessing of the sick is similar then to Catholic confirmation as described,-- and what would that prove? But saying that LDS blessing of the sick and the Coptic annointing is similar? Come on!

That is all throughout the Bible, do a simple search, I do not feel like doing so get your own references.

[saemo]

The intent of that sacrament seems very different from the intent of the Coptic rite as well, the Coptic being more a blessing where the confirmation was to make one unafraid to stand up for the faith.

The intent is multiple. Being unafraid to stand up for the faith is a blessing.

From the Catechism

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";

- it unites us more firmly to Christ;

- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;

- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;

- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.

I highly doubt you will find the Coptic Orthodox or Coptic Catholic are in disagreement.

[lostindc]

The intent is multiple. Being unafraid to stand up for the faith is a blessing.

From the Catechism

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";

- it unites us more firmly to Christ;

- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;

- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;

- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.

I highly doubt you will find the Coptic Orthodox or Coptic Catholic are in disagreement.

Do you ever cite the catechism to prove that Catholics can become Gods? I often do

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...t2art3.shtml#p1

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81