The Shiftless, Lazy, Lying Smith Family

[rabanes]

Preliminary hearings do not produce convictions, but they can produce acquittals. Joseph was acquitted.

Let me be more precise (btw, I just love the way you guys mince and dice words when its convenient, but enjoy using great latitude when using other terms that serve your own purposes).

During this preliminary hearing (then called an "examination"), Joseph admitted that he possessed "a certain stone" that he occasionally used to determine the location of hidden treasures in the earth. The court record continues: "[H]e professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowell several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures." (This was confirmed by testimony from Josiah Stowell, Arad Stowell, McCaster, and Jonathan Thomson.) For their testimony, see the transcript of the examination, "State of New York v. Joseph Smith."

Smith was given "Leg Bail" -- basically, get out of town and never return (probably because Smith was only a 20-year-old kid). You'll want to see the recollections of A.W. Benton (a Bainbridge resident), and Joel K. Noble (Justice of the Peace). We have the documentation, which you are well aware of, wherein that examination labels Smith the "Glass-Looker." The origins of Mormonism are steeped in the occult and magickal workings. Are you SERIOUSLY telling me Joseph never used peep stones in the occult manner popular in that day to hunt for buried treasures? Seriously? or are you, as I have noted before, fixating on my gnat (use of the word "convicted"), while ignoring the great big elephant of Smith's occult practices?

And dear Anijen, you said, "Please allow me to educate you, the fact is Joseph was accused many times and convicted zero." Are you also SERIOUSLY saying that Smith never looked for buried treasures using peep stones, used magick rituals, or carried things around like occult talismans and magickal parchments? If so, then it is you, my friend, who needs to be educated. I suggest you contact even some Mormons who could school you in those facts.

R.A.

[ttribe]

Let me be more precise (btw, I just love the way you guys mince and dice words when its convenient, but enjoy using great latitude when using other terms that serve your own purposes).

Said the pot to the kettle.

And dear Anijen, you said, "Please allow me to educate you, the fact is Joseph was accused many times and convicted zero." Are you also SERIOUSLY saying that Smith never looked for buried treasures using peep stones, used magick rituals, or carried things around like occult talismans and magickal parchments? If so, then it is you, my friend, who needs to be educated. I suggest you contact even some Mormons who could school you in those facts.

All of which he abandoned as he grew in greater light and knowledge; a fact you conveniently omit.

[rabanes]

All of which he abandoned as he grew in greater light and knowledge; a fact you conveniently omit.

Uh huh. I see. By what year, would you say? Go ahead. I'm listening. He abandoned? Really? As did all the other Mormons who practiced such things as using magick, peep stones, and fortune telling? Those kinds of things?

Tell me by when; by when would he have had to give up these things in order to not have them held against him in any way, shape, or form? When would he have had to condemn such things to the general Mormon population and stop all such activity among them in order for the early Mormons to be distanced from them as part of the early Mormon foundation?

Just curious here. And, btw, if you read about those early years, I think you will see that leaving behind such things would have been no small feat since the founding of Mormonism is inextricably linked with such occult activity.

R.A.

[thesometimesaint]

Rabanes:

I don't know you tell me how many Americans at some point in their life haven't had a "Lucky" rock, piece of clothing, rabbits foot. Or believe in some sort "Lucky" set of words or phrases. Riddle me that.

[Anijen]

Joseph was accused many times and convicted zero, Are you also SERIOUSLY saying that Smith never looked for buried treasure...?

Um, no, I am saying he was accused many times and convicted zero.

dear Anijen,

it is you, my friend, who needs to be educated. I suggest you contact even some Mormons who could school you in those facts.

Just an FYI I have been to skool (many of them) and have the paper work to prove it (just when I thought that I'd never use that little piece of paper more than a wall decoration). I have spent most my life time in the studies of history and languages. I have taught seminary and been active in the LDS church since I was about 15. I helped translate many of the church manuals from English. I have a very impressive library of Church literature, FARMs, FAIR, SHIELD, and various books by authors including Bushman, Nibley, Van Wagoner, Sorenson, Gileadi, Holzapfel many many others most all academics both for and against the LDS church. Hmm lets see I also have copies of many of the writings of Josephus, the complete Nag Hammadi, um copies of the Dead Sea Scrolls which i read as occasion and topic permits. and due to a sever and chronic back pain I sit and read or frequent boards like this one. But thanks for your suggestion for more education :good:You really can never stop learning. I am what my wife calls a permanent student (she says she married the biggest athlete nerd there ever was).

yours truly

"dear" Anijen

[ttribe]

Uh huh. I see. By what year, would you say? Go ahead. I'm listening. He abandoned? Really?

Yes really. I'm not going to go research the year issue when I happen to be at work (on a billable hour basis, no less). However, even a perusal of The History of the Church makes it quite clear that JS had abandoned the whole "peep-stone" thing at least as early as 1830.

As did all the other Mormons who practiced such things as using magick, peep stones, and fortune telling? Those kinds of things?

If you're going to start painting with that broad of a brush, you better be prepared to paint people of ANY faith with the brush in 19th century America.

Tell me by when; by when would he have had to give up these things in order to not have them held against him in any way, shape, or form? When would he have had to condemn such things to the general Mormon population and stop all such activity among them in order for the early Mormons to be distanced from them as part of the early Mormon foundation?

I don't really care whether you hold it against him, or us, for that matter. But you could at least be intellectually honest and acknowledge that both he and the general membership (by and large) grew out of such things.

Just curious here. And, btw, if you read about those early years, I think you will see that leaving behind such things would have been no small feat since the founding of Mormonism is inextricably linked with such occult activity.

That you so vehemently wish to reach that conclusion is not shocking.

Tell me RAbanes, care to disclose just how much of your personal income is tied up in anti-Mormon activities?

[rabanes]

I don't know you tell me how many Americans at some point in their life haven't had a "Lucky" rock, piece of clothing, rabbits foot. Or believe in some sort "Lucky" set of words or phrases. Riddle me that.

Er...we are not talking here about fluffy, casual, h-ha-ha superstitious, fly-by, silliness like: "Ooooh, I like the number 3 because everything good happens to me in threes," or "This is my lucky turtle rock I found at the Colorado River while white water rafter, I carry it whenever I do sports."

With Smith (and the Smiths in general, as well as many early Mormons) we're talking a deep and profound adherence to occult folk magick, divination, fortune telling, magick rituals, spells, incantations, and some seriously dark arts kind of stuff. And it all played in to the formation of early Mormonism, it's views, practices, and most importantly, Smith's early visions and supernatural encounters involving his production of the BOM and associated events. This is the real occult/magick stuff we're talking about, and has all been documented/established as historical facts.

R.A.

[Rommelator]

Hey Richard. How are things going for you? I hope that all is going well.

Let me ask you a question. I have not thoroughly read your book One Nation Under Gods, although I have skimmed through sections and have read some of the other reviews of said work.

Let me ask you one question.

What was you primarily relying on in terms of Joseph Smith's money digging, seer stone, etc? Was it Quinn in Early Mormonism and the Magic World View? If so, then are you familiar with reviews of this work and what is your opinion of said reviews, most notably by FARMS?

[thesometimesaint]

Rabanes:

Again yours is a Special Pleading that the Smiths can not be honest because they are "special". They were not. They were not any different than the vast majority of their friends, and neighbors. Apply the same criteria to your beliefs.

[rabanes]

However, even a perusal of The History of the Church makes it quite clear that JS had abandoned the whole "peep-stone" thing at least as early as 1830.

I thought you'd say that -- because, tbh, involvement after that would really create some problems....so, let's just get to it.

Sadly, the truth is that the widespread use of magick and occult involvement stretched well into the late 1800s, due in part to Smith's COMPLETE failure to ever condemn, renounce, or forbid occult activity. In fact, he did the very opposite, showing that he still believed very much in magickal objects and occult ideas -- even going so far as to demonstrate a kind of pride over his powers.

For instance, on Dec. 27, 1841 (well after the BOM was produced), Smith displayed one of his stones to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles! Brigham Young reminisced that during this presentation Smith actually said that "every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one." Here's the BY quote:

"I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)

Other expressions of occult belief were just as popular. Mormon women, for example, in following the lead of Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, practice "palmistry, card-divination, and tea-leaf reading" as late as the 1880s! (see Quinn's Early Mormonism, pp. 294-295).

As for Mormon men, they not only used peepstones, but occult divining rods to find buried treasures and sacred holy ground. You can see one such divining rod mentioned in the original D&C with reference to Oliver Cowdery (Book of Commandments VII:3). But when this "revelation" was later re-published as D&C, it was changed to conceal the original statement that spoke of Cowdery working with the divining rod (a reference to the occult practice).

It was this very divining rod used by Cowdery that Brigham Young reportedly used to determine where the SLC temple should be built! (see Anthon H. Lund Journal, under July 5, 1901). Seems like that was quite a while after 1830. No?

Here I have offered just a few examples to back up my claims. And so now I would ask that you please provide a few pieces of evidence to support your contention that "JS had abandoned the whole "peep-stone" thing at least as early as 1830" and that "he and the general membership (by an large) grew out of such things."

Tell me Arbanes, care to disclose just how much of your personal income is tied up in anti-Mormon activities?

ROFL!!!!! Are you serious. That is so, so......sad. But since you asked, I'll tell you exactly how much my last royalty check for One Nation Under Gods was.....drum roll please..... a grand total of $745. LOL! Hurrah!!! Now I can buy a new Mercedes, get a new beach house, and go on vacation for a week to Hawaii!!!! Or maybe Italy and start a tour of Europe from there.

Friend, I don't do this for money. I don't do this because I hate you, or Mormons, or Mormonism. I say what I say because it's the truth. Mormonism as a religion has some very serious problems associated with its origins that relegate it to the place of being a fraudulent Christianity. Sorry, that's how I see things.

best wishes,

R.A.

[rabanes]

What was you primarily relying on in terms of Joseph Smith's money digging, seer stone, etc? Was it Quinn in Early Mormonism and the Magic World View? If so, then are you familiar with reviews of this work and what is your opinion of said reviews, most notably by FARMS?

Hey ROMM! I am fine, thank you. I hope you're well, too. I relied on multiple sources, and used Quinn's book, in part, to help me find those sources. For example, in my last post you'll see I quote from the MS, as well as from Lund's Journal. It's not like I simply read Quinn and quoted him, then said, "See, there you go." I poured through all kinds of original source material -- that LDS CD-ROM really came in handy. As for FARMS, meh, whatever. I'm not going to get into an argument about FARMS.

R.A.

[thesometimesaint]

rabanes:

Take a look at your own version of Christianity.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm

DIVINATION, MAGIC & OCCULTIC ACTIVITY IN THE BIBLE

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Sponsored link.

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Occultic techniques in the Hebrew Scriptures:

There are a number of instances in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) where respected biblical leaders were involved with various black magic, divination and occultic activities as a normal part of their daily activities -- apparently without any condemnations from God:

bullet In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.

bullet Numbers 5:12-31 describes a ritual of black magic that the Priest would perform on a woman if her husband suspected that she he had committed adultery. Verse 17 says: "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.." She and her husband would go, with an offering of barley meal, to the tabernacle. The priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.

bullet The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.

bullet Elisha was on his way to Bethel. Some small boys came out of the city and made fun of him because of his lack of hair; they called him "baldy". In a violent display of the power of black magic, Elisha cursed the children in the name of God. Two bears, apparently prompted by God, came out of the forest and tore 42 of the boys to shreds. The implication is that the children were all murdered. See 2 Kings 2:23-24.

bullet Lots -- pieces of wood or stone with markings -- were used to determine the will of God. They were similar to dice. See: Numbers 26:55; Proverbs 16:33 Proverbs 18:18.

bullet Daniel, the prophet, was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.

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Occultic techniques in the Christian Scriptures:

bullet St. Paul engaged in evil sorcery as described in Acts 13:6-12. (Sorcery is here used in the same way as Exodus 22:18: a person saying magical words or performing magical rituals in order to harm or kill another person). During his journey to Cyprus, St. Paul met Bar-Jesus, who was an attendant of the Roman proconsul Sergius Paulus. He had a conflict with cursed Bar-Jesus, saying:

"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun. (NIV)

Bar-Jesus heard the curse and immediately was blinded.

bullet St. Peter also engaged in evil sorcery, as described in Acts 5:9. After he determined that Sapphira had lied to him, he cursed her, saying

"How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. (ASV)

She collapsed and died immediately.

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Biblical Condemnation of the Occult

There are many Biblical passages that described some prohibited types of occultic activity by the ancient Israelites. These include Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 19:26-26; 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Isaiah 8:19 and Malachai 3:5. Of these, Deuteronomy 18 is perhaps the most important. They forbade the Israelites from engaging in human sacrifice and in eight specific practices which some have been regarded as occultic. The King James translation is:

"There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Various other translations of the Bible use the following terms or phrases here: augur, black magic, calls up the dead, charm, consults with spirits, fortune teller, interpret omens, look for omens, magician, medium, sorcerer, soothsayer, spiritist, weaves or casts spells, witchcraft, and wizard.

Clearly, translators have had a great deal of difficulty selecting unique English words or short phrases to match the 8 original Hebrew words:

1. yid'oni Making contact with spirits (not of God).

2. sho'el 'ov Making contact with the dead .

3. qosem q'samim Foretelling the future by using lots or a similar system.

4. m'onen Predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature.

5. m'nachesh Enchanting (perhaps related to nachash, a snake).

6. chover chavar Casting spells by magical knot tying.

7. m'khaseph evil sorcery; using spoken spells to harm other people.

8. doresh 'el hametim "One who asks the dead", probably via another method than sho'el 'ov

The reference to passing children through the fire has historically been interpreted as the ritual killing of the first born child in each family. Tribes surrounding the Israelites were believed to engage in this practice. In reality, it probably refers to a painful coming-of-age challenge that children had to endure. They would pass through the fire and (hopefully) emerge without much injury. In other traditions, they would run between two fires. This phrase has caused many people to believe that Pagans in ancient times engaged in child sacrifice. This appears to be the source of the belief among some Christians that modern day Pagans do the same thing. While we do not know what ancient Pagans did, we can be certain that modern-day Pagans do not murder children. This phrase (and many similar ones throughout the Bible) has probably contributed greatly to the public's widely held fear of Ritual Abuse and Satanic Ritual Abuse.

Interpreting Deuteronomy 18 in terms of modern-day practice, it is apparent that the following are prohibited:

1. yid'oni The New Age practice of channeling in which a person attempts to contact a spirit in order to gain knowledge.

2. sho'el 'ov Spiritualism, in which a medium contacts the dead.

3. qosem q'samim Casting stones or sticks and predicting the future by their position (e.g. I Ching, and perhaps runes, or Tarot cards).

4. m'onen Foretelling the future by looking for signs in nature (e.g. predicting the harshness of a winter by looking at moss on trees, or fur thickness on animals in the wild, or whether the groundhog sees his shadow on FEB-2.)

5. m'nachesh Snake charming.

6. chover chavar Casting (presumably evil) spells while tying knots.

7. m'khaseph Reciting evil spoken spells to injure others .

8. doresh 'el hametim Any other method of contacting the dead .

Other currently used methods of foretelling the future, such as tea cup reading, astrology, palm reading, tarot cards, runes etc. are not mentioned. It is thus not obvious whether they are forbidden (as in snake charming) or whether they are acceptable to God (as in scrying). A Membership in the Masonic Order (or similar fraternal/spiritual organization) is not banned. Wicca (Witchcraft), which does not allow its followers to engage in black magic or manipulative spells, is not prohibited either. Black magic rituals, are occasionally performed by Satanists as revenge to injury done to them by others; they would be condemned by this passage.

The Biblical passages appear to apply to persons who are directly engaged in the various practices (e.g. mediums, channelers, astrologers, etc.); they do not seem to refer to people who simply observe the activity.

The Greek word "pharmakos" which appears in Galatians 5:20 refers to poisoners. It was mis-translated as witchcraft in the King James Version. Since no modern-day Pagan, Neopagan or occultic activity engages in killing people by poison, the verse does not refer in any way to Wicca, other Neopagans or Occultists.

[ttribe]

I thought you'd say that -- because, tbh, involvement after that would really create some problems....so, let's just get to it.

Sadly, the truth is that the widespread use of magick and occult involvement stretched well into the late 1800s, due in part to Smith's COMPLETE failure to ever condemn, renounce, or forbid occult activity. In fact, he did the very opposite, showing that he still believed very much in magickal objects and occult ideas -- even going so far as to demonstrate a kind of pride over his powers.

For instance, on Dec. 27, 1841 (well after the BOM was produced), Smith displayed one of his stones to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles! Brigham Young reminisced that during this presentation Smith actually said that "every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one." Here's the BY quote:

"I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)

Other expressions of occult belief were just as popular. Mormon women, for example, in following the lead of Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, practice "palmistry, card-divination, and tea-leaf reading" as late as the 1880s! (see Quinn's Early Mormonism, pp. 294-295).

As for Mormon men, they not only used peepstones, but occult divining rods to find buried treasures and sacred holy ground. You can see one such divining rod mentioned in the original D&C with reference to Oliver Cowdery (Book of Commandments VII:3). But when this "revelation" was later re-published as D&C, it was changed to conceal the original statement that spoke of Cowdery working with the divining rod (a reference to the occult practice).

It was this very divining rod used by Cowdery that Brigham Young reportedly used to determine where the SLC temple should be built! (see Anthon H. Lund Journal, under July 5, 1901). Seems like that was quite a while after 1830. No?

Here I have offered just a few examples to back up my claims. And so now I would ask that you please provide a few pieces of evidence to support your contention that "JS had abandoned the whole "peep-stone" thing at least as early as 1830" and that "he and the general membership (by an large) grew out of such things."

Not a single thing in there about JS using the "peep stone" after 1830.

Regarding the general membership, can you please point me to where I can pick up my personal peep stone, because I can't seem to find it at Deseret Book. Why? Oh right...because WE GREW OUT OF SUCH THINGS! Your continued appeal to the 19th century, coupled with your silence on the abandonment of such things over time, is a glaring omission clearly designed to lead your reader into thinking that such things are part of the modern Church; which they are not.

ROFL!!!!! Are you serious. That is so, so......sad. But since you asked, I'll tell you exactly how much my last royalty check for One Nation Under Gods was.....drum roll please..... a grand total of $745. LOL! Hurrah!!! Now I can buy a new Mercedes, get a new beach house, and go on vacation for a week to Hawaii!!!! Or maybe Italy and start a tour of Europe from there.

Study up on the impact of remuneration on independent thought, judgment, and objectivity. You might find that even $1 is a problem.

Friend, I don't do this for money.

Then you'll be donating all proceeds from books, speaking engagements, pamphlets, etc. to charity I take it?

Oh, and please don't call me "friend". Nothing you do evokes such friendly overtones.

I don't do this because I hate you, or Mormons, or Mormonism.

And I can sure feel the love.

I say what I say because it's the truth. Mormonism as a religion has some very serious problems associated with its origins that relegate it to the place of being a fraudulent Christianity. Sorry, that's how I see things.

I frankly don't care what your opinion is. That you would sell it to the public as some exhaustive set of research and authoritative or objective in any way is, at best, disingenuous and could just as easily be labeled fraudulent itself. You do yourself and your readers a significant disservice when you engage in polemic and intellectually dishonest rhetoric.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

"I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)

[...]

I remember reading this account in Opening the Heavens and lamenting that I was too wicked to have me a seer stone.

One of these days... one of these days...

[rabanes]

The Greek word "pharmakos" which appears in Galatians 5:20 refers to poisoners. It was mis-translated as witchcraft in the King James Version. Since no modern-day Pagan, Neopagan or occultic activity engages in killing people by poison, the verse does not refer in any way to Wicca, other Neopagans or Occultists.

Spoken like a true witch. Sounds like you took this straight from well-known witch, Doreen Valiente. Try doing a little more study. I answered this work out "poisoner" argument in my book Harry Potter, Narnia, and The Lord of the Rings, p. 235-236. Go to a library and look it up.

Ttribe: can you please point me to where I can pick up my personal peep stone, because I can't seem to find it at Deseret Book. Why? Oh right...because WE GREW OUT OF SUCH THINGS!

RA: Uhm, you might want to go back and read my conversation again. The context of the discussion was Smith and the others grwoing out of that by 1830. tsk tsk tsk....nothing changes with you guys. Too bad.

R.A.

[cksalmon]

Not a single thing in there about JS using the "peep stone" after 1830.

Hi ttribe--

If we take the BY quotation as legitimate (i.e., an actual historical utterance by Young underlies the quotation) and essentially accurate (i.e., that the quotation reliably captures said utterance--even if perhaps not perfectly)--and I'm not sure why we wouldn't do so, on either count--then there is documentary evidence that Joseph Smith lauded the practice of making good use of the seer stone in 1841 (eleven years after 1830).

Your claim that there is no documentary evidence that Joseph Smith made use of any seer stone after 1830 may be true. I don't know. But, at the very least, his opinion of them was highly favorable in 1841: "He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one."

Regarding the general membership, can you please point me to where I can pick up my personal peep stone, because I can't seem to find it at Deseret Book. Why? Oh right...because WE GREW OUT OF SUCH THINGS!

The Young quotation indicates that, at least in 1841, the reason that the use of the seer stone was perhaps in decline was because of the wickedness of mankind, rather than because the practice had, in essence, been outmoded.

Your continued appeal to the 19th century, coupled with your silence on the abandonment of such things over time...

Well, that is the historical context of the quotation. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that such practices weren't abandoned over time. Just that it does not seem that they were abandoned by Joseph Smith.

Best.

cks

[ttribe]

Spoken like a true witch. Sounds like you took this straight from well-known witch, Doreen Valiente. Try doing a little more study. I answered this work out "poisoner" argument in my book Harry Potter, Narnia, and The Lord of the Rings, p. 235-236. Go to a library and look it up.

Ttribe: can you please point me to where I can pick up my personal peep stone, because I can't seem to find it at Deseret Book. Why? Oh right...because WE GREW OUT OF SUCH THINGS!

RA: Uhm, you might want to go back and read my conversation again. The context of the discussion was Smith and the others grwoing out of that by 1830. tsk tsk tsk....nothing changes with you guys. Too bad.

R.A.

Well since I never said, or even implied, that the general membership of the Church had outgrown the peep stone thing by 1830, it appears to be you that is misrepresenting words (shocking). I said JS had at that point. My comment on the general Church membership was open ended.

[ttribe]

Hi ttribe--

If we take the BY quotation as legitimate (i.e., an actual historical utterance by Young underlies the quotation) and essentially accurate (i.e., that the quotation reliably captures said utterance--even if perhaps not perfectly)--and I'm not sure why we wouldn't do so, on either count--then there is documentary evidence that Joseph Smith lauded the practice of making good use of the seer stone in 1841 (eleven years after 1830).

Your claim that there is no documentary evidence that Joseph Smith made use of any seer stone after 1830 may be true. I don't know. But, at the very least, his opinion of them was highly favorable in 1841: "He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one."

The quote may very well be accurate. However, there are a couple of things in play - 1) my statement was in refutation of the author's apparent assertion that JS kept right on in his treasure huntin', peep-stone using ways. When, in fact, there's simply no indication of that; and 2) a Seer Stone and a peep stone are very different animals...but that opens a whole new can of worms.

The Young quotation indicates that, at least in 1841, the reason that the use of the seer stone was perhaps in decline was because of the wickedness of mankind, rather than because the practice had, in essence, been outmoded.

That's one interpretation, but not a very good one since not a single President of the Church since then appears to have been making use of such a thing.

Well, that is the historical context of the quotation. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that such practices weren't abandoned over time.

That's not how I read it.

Just that it does not seem that they were abandoned by Joseph Smith.

And yet, no evidence that he was using one after 1830.

[cksalmon]

Spoken like a true witch.

I highlight this very good point in the hopes that it will not be missed by the casual reader. It has broader application.

When Arminians invoke etymologies and "word studies" that I personally find ridiculous, it helps to remind myself that they are probably warlocks.

cks

[ttribe]

I highlight this very good point in the hopes that it will not be missed by the casual reader. It has broader application.

When Arminians invoke etymologies and "word studies" that I personally find ridiculous, it helps to remind myself that they are probably warlocks.

cks

Okay, I just have to ask, but do you really think these so-called "witches" and "warlocks" have any actual supernatural power?

[cksalmon]

That's one interpretation, but not a very good one since not a single President of the Church since then appears to have been making use of such a thing.

Hi ttribe--

I was referring specifically to the historical context surrounding the 1841 quotation. There was no other President of the Church at that time.

Best.

cks

PS. You think a "seer stone" is something different that a "peep stone?" I was under the impression that the latter was a derogatory epithet for the former. At least, that's what I've gathered from the apparent disdain of some LDS over use of the term "peep stone" on this board. I don't really know much about "seer stone" vs. U/T, though.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Spoken like a true witch. Sounds like you took this straight from well-known witch, Doreen Valiente. Try doing a little more study. I answered this work out "poisoner" argument in my book Harry Potter, Narnia, and The Lord of the Rings, p. 235-236. Go to a library and look it up.

R.A.

I cant tell if your serious here.

Oh well, if I remember correctly you are the guy that thought it ok to quote from more than a questionable source as fact.

I remember quite a thread at ZLMB were you had taken a quote from a really bad source and you were called out on it.

What does this have to do with anything. Nothing I guess.

[rabanes]

ttribe: Well since I never said, or even implied, that the general membership of the Church had outgrown the peep stone thing by 1830, it appears to be you that is misrepresenting words (shocking). I said JS had at that point. My comment on the general Church membership was open ended.

RA: Unreal. Kind of amusing, actually. What I stated was that the context of our conversation was "The context of the discussion was Smith and the others growing out of that by 1830." I had asked BOTH questions: 1) when did Smith stop; and 2) when did others stop.

You directly mentioned 1830 in connection to Smith (now shown to be incorrect). And in reply to my direct question about others ("As did all the other Mormons who practiced such things as using magick, peep stones, and fortune telling? Those kinds of things?"), you simply stated: "If you're going to start painting with that broad of a brush, you better be prepared to paint people of ANY faith with the brush in 19th century America." Since you did not list a date for them, I assumed you were looking at 1830 for them as well (which as we as we all now see, and apparently you do to, that such a view would be wrong).

The issue you seem to want to ignore is that Smith, contrary to what you asserted originally, didn't grow out of it by 1830. And because he never condemned such things, indeed exalted such things, his flock continued participating in such activities late into the 1800s (you implied, at least to my eyes, that they grew out of it rather quickly).

And I noticed you said nothing about the change to the Book of Commandments to hide Cowdery's diving rod, or Lund's report of Young diving the site of the SLC temple by occult means. Any comments on those things?

R.A.

[cksalmon]

Okay, I just have to ask, but do you really think these so-called "witches" and "warlocks" have any actual supernatural power?

The ones I have in mind can, for the most part, construct coherent sentences in English. Whether or not that power is supernatural in nature, I leave to the readers to decide.

(Of course, I believe that said power is at least indicative of the truth of supernaturalism vis-a-vis naturalism, but, then, I would. I'm a Bahnsenian presuppositionalist.)

cks

[Rommelator]

Richard:

Since I have you here right now, I do have another question.

What exactly were you trying to accomplish with this?

"The Articles of Faith are thirteen statements that outline the more socially acceptable Mormon beliefs, usually discussed openly by Latter-day Saints when explaining Mormonism to potential converts. None of the articles deal with any doctrines that might be viewed as offensive or controversial to non-Mormons. The Articles of Faith are contained in modern LDS editions of the Pearl of Great Price, one of the Standard Works of the Mormon church. The AOF are on-line at [link to ex-mormon.com]"

Call me crazy, but the link to the ex-mormon website does not give the Articles of Faith but an anti-Mormon parody of such.