Are We The Offspring Of God

[Zakuska]

Christ answered your question already.

John 3:5

"Can a man enter his mother womb and be born a second time"

Yes and Yes

[Trencher7]

Jesus makes it clear that while you may have a literal father, you may not claim him as so until you do his works. Just as we are literal offspring of God, we will not be considered God's children unless we produce the fruits thereof.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Later in verse 56 Jesus confirms Abraham is their father as he earlier claimed they were his seed.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

So you have Jesus confirming they are Abraham's children and at the same time denying it becasue of their works (the Devil's). "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." Who our father is depends on our beliefs and actions even if we literally are God's offspring.

[johnny]

Trencher7,

Just as we are literal offspring of God, we will not be considered God's children unless we produce the fruits thereof.

How can we be literal offspring of God, if God makes our soul (Isa 57:16), he forms the spirit within man (Zech 12:1)?

Isa.57

[16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

[Bernard Gui]

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

This scripture has always puzzled me. He is speaking to "Jews which believed on him."

Yet later he calls them children of the devil who want to kill him. How come?

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Do you accept Zech 12:1, it says:

Zech.12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Yes. LDS doctrine is totally in harmony with this scripture as it stands.

Bernard

[johnny]

Bernard Gui,

Yes. LDS doctrine is totally in harmony with this scripture as it stands.

Please explain how Isa 57:16 and Zech 12:1 are in harmony with the Mormon doctrine that "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents"?

[Bernard Gui]

Bernard Gui,

Please explain how Isa 57:16 and Zech 12:1 are in harmony with the Mormon doctrine that "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents"?

We were talking about Zech 12:1, no?

"...the Lord who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth..."

Agreed.

"...and who formed the spirit of man within him..."

Agreed.

Whatever the process...we don't know it and you don't know it...the spirt of man

was formed by God and placed within him. The actions required have not yet been revealed

and may not be except to those who will participate. In the meantime,

we go with what we know...God formed our spirits and placed them

within our bodies.

Ditto Isaiah 57:16. Although I don't quite see the problem...

"...For a breath of life passed out from me, and by my own act I created living creatures."

(Revised English Bible)

Bernard

[johnny]

Bernard Gui,

Whatever the process...we don't know it and you don't know it...the spirt of man

was formed by God and placed within him. The actions required have not yet been revealed

and may not be except to those who will participate. In the meantime,

we go with what we know...God formed our spirits and placed them

within our bodies.

How can be " placed within him" if Zech 12:1 says "formeth the spirit of man within him" and Isa 57:16 says "the souls which I have made"?

Holy Scripture gives us the process and is contrary to the teachings of the Mormon Church.

[Billy]

Billy states,

This would necessitate two births from his Mother in Heaven. The first as a spiritual child, then at a later point in time as a physical child. Any ideas of how this would work? Can a Mother in heaven give birth to a spiritual person, then a physical person?

Zakuska replies,

Christ answered your question already.

John 3:5

"Can a man enter his mother womb and be born a second time"

Yes and Yes

Do you think that some, most, or all LDS posters would agree with you on this point?

[Bernard Gui]

Bernard Gui,

How can be " placed within him" if Zech 12:1 says "formeth the spirit of man within him" and Isa 57:16 says "the souls which I have made"?

The spirit is formed by God and by some process unknown to us is placed in the body. We agree

that God made the souls, the spirits, whatever you want to call them. I don't see what's to disagree

with here.

Could you please explain the process as you understand it?

Bernard

[johnny]

Bernard Gui,

The spirit is formed by God and by some process unknown to us is placed in the body. We agree

that God made the souls, the spirits, whatever you want to call them. I don't see what's to disagree

with here.

Could you please explain the process as you understand it?

The process is that the spirit of man is NOT placed in the body ... the spirit is formed within the body (Zech 12:1). For example, Adam became a living soul after God formed him (Gen 2:7).

The spirit of man is not begotten and born of heavenly parents, a man is not the literal offspring of God.

[No Touch]

Bernard Gui,

The process is that the spirit of man is NOT placed in the body ... the spirit is formed within the body (Zech 12:1). For example, Adam became a living soul after God formed him (Gen 2:7).

The spirit of man is not begotten and born of heavenly parents, a man is not the literal offspring of God.

I could just as easily read Zech 12:1 to say that the HIM in which the spirit is formed is that HIM who is forming the spirit of man, before he places it into the man. Even to also say that everything else mentioned in Zech 12:1 was done within HIM.

Gen 2:7 doesn't make your point. God is introducing something (in a very vivdly described and physical manner I might add) into the body of man to make him a living soul, he is not simply snapping his fingers and a spirit spontaneously appears within man. With Adam, the spirit is added to man for the first time.

[johnny]

No Touch,

I could just as easily read Zech 12:1 to say that the HIM in which the spirit is formed is that HIM who is forming the spirit of man, before he places it into the man. Even to also say that everything else mentioned in Zech 12:1 was done within HIM.

In Zech 12:1 it is clear the Lord is NOT the "him" (see below):

Zech.12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Gen 2:7 doesn't make your point. God is introducing something (in a very vivdly described and physical manner I might add) into the body of man to make him a living soul, he is not simply snapping his fingers and a spirit spontaneously appears within man. With Adam, the spirit is added to man for the first time.

It makes the the point Adam "became a living soul" ... what kind of soul was he before he "became"?

God is NOT introducing the spirit of man into the body of man, Gen 2:7 says "the breath of life" was introduced into him. God is not "snapping his fingers", he is forming the spirit of man within him (Zech 12:1).

[Glenn101]

I could just as easily read Zech 12:1 to say that the HIM in which the spirit is formed is that HIM who is forming the spirit of man, before he places it into the man. Even to also say that everything else mentioned in Zech 12:1 was done within HIM.

Gen 2:7 doesn't make your point. God is introducing something (in a very vivdly described and physical manner I might add) into the body of man to make him a living soul, he is not simply snapping his fingers and a spirit spontaneously appears within man. With Adam, the spirit is added to man for the first time.

And after reading this:

Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

one can ask the question how could know someone before they were formed in the belly if not existing in some form (spirit anyone) beforehand?

Glenn

[johnny]

glennthigpen,

And after reading this:

Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

one can ask the question how could know someone before they were formed in the belly if not existing in some form (spirit anyone) beforehand?

God has foreknowledge ...the spirit of man did not pre-exist, the spirit is formed within in the belly.

[wenglund]

Bernard Gui,

How can be " placed within him" if Zech 12:1 says "formeth the spirit of man within him" and Isa 57:16 says "the souls which I have made"?

Holy Scripture gives us the process and is contrary to the teachings of the Mormon Church.

Johnny,

You are welcome to interpret the scriptures however you wish, and we reserve the right to do the same. To us, Zech may reasonably be rephrased to say: "the spirit of man within him, God formeth".

We believe that the way God formeth the spirit of man is suggested in the appelation: "Father". The way in which he has made the souls (which we believe to be the composite of a spirit and physical body), is suggested in the appelation: "Creator".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[No Touch]

glennthigpen,

God has foreknowledge ...the spirit of man did not pre-exist, the spirit is formed within in the belly.

Again

Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This is not a question of foreknowledge, this is action - sanctification and ordination. But if you really want to play this game, then maybe we should re-examine what it means to exist. If God had a foreknowledge of our character and who we are was defined already before we were conceived, doesn't that constitute existing without living? After all then, the birth is not producing anything new, only realizing that which was already in the mind of God. We existed (apparently eternally) in the mind of God (at least) by what you're putting forward, and I would argue that it isn't insignificant.

[johnny]

wenglund,

You are welcome to interpret the scriptures however you wish, and we reserve the right to do the same. To us, Zech may reasonably be rephrased to say: "the spirit of man within him, God formeth".

I prefer NOT to twist the scripture so that it fits my doctrine. Zech 12:1 reveals that spirit of man is NOT placed within him but that the spirit of man is formed within him. The spirit of man did NOT pre-exist. The spirit of man is not the literal offspring of God.

We believe that the way God formeth the spirit of man is suggested in the appelation: "Father". The way in which he has made the souls (which we believe to be the composite of a spirit and physical body), is suggested in the appelation: "Creator".

God is the Father of ALL things, this includes being the father of spirits. The Spirit of God has made us, and the breath of the Almighty has given us life. Men are the offspring of a living God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver. Men are NOT the offspring of heavenly parents like the Mormon Church teaches.

No Touch,

This is not a question of foreknowledge, this is action - sanctification and ordination. But if you really want to play this game, then maybe we should re-examine what it means to exist. If God had a foreknowledge of our character and who we are was defined already before we were conceived, doesn't that constitute existing without living? After all then, the birth is not producing anything new, only realizing that which was already in the mind of God. We existed (apparently eternally) in the mind of God (at least) by what you're putting forward, and I would argue that it isn't insignificant.

God has foreknowledge (1Pet 1:2). Before John the Baptist was formed in his motherâ??s belly, God knew John the Baptist would be great. Before he came out of the womb, John the Baptist was sanctified and ordained to be a prophet, he was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15).

[No Touch]

God is the Father of ALL things, this includes being the father of spirits. .... Men are the offspring of a living God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver.

So then you do agree, we are the offspring of God.

Men are NOT the offspring of heavenly parents like the Mormon Church teaches.

If God is our Father, and we are his offspring, how does he not qualify as a Heavenly parent? Because you are agreeing one sentence and then disagreeing the next.

Maybe you mean something to the effect of having a Heavenly Mother, which while it may be a matter of conjecture among members of the Church, I know of no authoritative/official teachings on it, so I'm not sure you can really say that it is what the Church teaches (if that is in fact what you are attempting to assert).

[wenglund]

wenglund,

I prefer NOT to twist the scripture so that it fits my doctrine. Zech 12:1 reveals that spirit of man is NOT placed within him but that the spirit of man is formed within him. The spirit of man did NOT pre-exist. The spirit of man is not the literal offspring of God.

God is the Father of ALL things, this includes being the father of spirits. The Spirit of God has made us, and the breath of the Almighty has given us life. Men are the offspring of a living God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver. Men are NOT the offspring of heavenly parents like the Mormon Church teaches.

Twisting of scripture is in the eye of the beholder. And, you are certainly entitled to your personal opinion, as well as entitled to express your opinion as emphatically and dogmatically as you wish--for all the good it will do.

However, to us, it is just your unauthoritative, private, and incorrect opinion (i.e. it is of little or no value or meaningfulness to us than any other expression of belief that differs from our own).

With that having been said, in Eccl. 12:7, it speaks of the death of the soul, and says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

To me, this passage draws a distinction between the physical and spiritual bodies that comprise the soul of man, and intimates that the physical body returns to the dust, while the spirit body returns to God who gave it.

Now I don't know about you, but as I understand the word "return", the spirit bodies of mankind must first have been with God prior to mortality in order for them to be able to "return" to God after mortality (how can something "return" to that which it has never been?).

You, of course, are free to view it differently.

Thanks, -Wade Engund-

[johnny]

No Touch,

So then you do agree, we are the offspring of God.

We are the offspring of God because he created us.

I do not agree that we are the offspring of a heavenly mother.

If God is our Father, and we are his offspring, how does he not qualify as a Heavenly parent? Because you are agreeing one sentence and then disagreeing the next.

God is our Father because he created ALL things.

Maybe you mean something to the effect of having a Heavenly Mother, which while it may be a matter of conjecture among members of the Church, I know of no authoritative/official teachings on it, so I'm not sure you can really say that it is what the Church teaches (if that is in fact what you are attempting to assert).

Chapter 2 of the Mormon teaching manual teaches:

"Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents . "

[No Touch]

No Touch,

We are the offspring of God because he created us.

I do not agree that we are the offspring of a heavenly mother.

God is our Father because he created ALL things.

Chapter 2 of the Mormon teaching manual teaches:

"Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents . "

I'm unfamiliar with "The Mormon Teaching Manual". Does it have another more common title? Maybe something on the cover?

Anyway, I still don't see what it is you're objecting to. Is God not our Heavenly Father? And does Genesis 1 not include the statement "And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness:"? That then also implies more than one party being involved in our creation/birth, both of our spirit and physical nature.

[johnny]

No Touch,

I'm unfamiliar with "The Mormon Teaching Manual". Does it have another more common title? Maybe something on the cover?

The name is Gospel Principles, below is a link that refers to "heavenly parents":

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

Anyway, I still don't see what it is you're objecting to. Is God not our Heavenly Father? And does Genesis 1 not include the statement "And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness:"? That then also implies more than one party being involved in our creation/birth, both of our spirit and physical nature.

The â??usâ? is â??the Wordâ? that was with God (John 1:1).

[No Touch]

No Touch,

The name is Gospel Principles, below is a link that refers to "heavenly parents":

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

I don't deny that its there or feel any need to disavow it, I just wanted to know what you're talking about.

The â??usâ? is â??the Wordâ? that was with God (John 1:1).

Us is plural so it would at least refer to God himself and the Word. However, there is nothing there that would limit how many parties are being referred to here, only your pre-existing assumptions.

[johnny]

No Touch,

Us is plural so it would at least refer to God himself and the Word. However, there is nothing there that would limit how many parties are being referred to here, only your pre-existing assumptions.

Scripture limits how many parties, the prophet Isaiah says God was alone and by himself (see below),

Isa.44

24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;