Jump to content

4,000-year Old Gold Jewelry Discovered In Peru


consiglieri

Recommended Posts

A link to this article was provided in another thread, recently deceased due to people getting all cantankerous about an old necklace.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080401/ap_on_sc/oldest_gold_6

The thread was closed before I got to say that I think this is interesting because it helps resolve an otherwise unusual reference in the Book of Jacob which says that, at a relatively early stage of Nephite civilization, people were adorning themselves with gold jewelry as a means of class distinction.

I am not saying that this piece is Nephite jewelry.

I am not saying it is even found in the same area as the Nephites eventually wound up.

All I am saying is that it helps me see how even at an early stage of a civilization, this kind of thing could happen--in the Americas--well in advance of any alleged Nephite arrival.

Should we chalk up another one for the Book of Mormon?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link to comment

...

Should we chalk up another one for the Book of Mormon?

...

Was this 4,000 years ago, from Jaredite times, or from before?

If from before, then there should have been a thick layer of mud from Noah's flood

over the gold. If from after that, then yup -- this is as good as it gets for Jaredites.

UD

Link to comment

In addition, it also reminds us that archaeological evidence can remain uncovered for a long time, even in our enlightened day in age, and even in places like Peru.

Was this 4,000 years ago, from Jaredite times, or from before?

If from before, then there should have been a thick layer of mud from Noah's flood

over the gold. If from after that, then yup -- this is as good as it gets for Jaredites.

UD

The Jaredites believed in a global flood?

Link to comment

....

The Jaredites believed in a global flood..

Shhhhhhhh!

THAT's in the sealed part of the plates.

UD

Link to comment

One of the points that came up in our gospel doctrine discussion was the fact that in Jacob, the Nephites are looking for gold and silver, among other things, as a source of riches. This appears to be support (as does the necklace) for the claim that there were quite a few people already there when Lehi and company arrived at the promised land.

In a land where there are few people, and those people are trying to get by with growing enough food, gold and silver would probably have very little useful or intrinsic value. However, if (when Lehi got there) there were a fair number of people in the land, and they traded with one another, gold and silver then become useful as a medium of exchange.

I think that it's mentioned in the necklace article that someone, at least, had some spare time at hand, indicating a more advanced level of civilization than previously realized at the time the necklace was made. In the same manner, the fact that Nephites are searching for gold and silver would indicate that there was a society or civilization of some sort already in place when they got there. Such things tend to be in demand only when an organized society of a significant number of people makes it so.

Link to comment

ll I am saying is that it helps me see how even at an early stage of a civilization, this kind of thing could happen--in the Americas--well in advance of any alleged Nephite arrival.

Help me out here...is there a critic argument that early Nephites shouldn't have been adorning themselves with jewelry? I'm not seeing how this relates to the BoM?

Link to comment

And the following quote from the article looks like it came right out of the Book of Jacob:

"These folks are obtaining this by their effort, accumulating more wealth and using objects for prestige," Aldenderfer said. It says: "Pay attention to me, I'm successful."

To which Jacob responded:

Jacob 2:12 And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a land of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully.

13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they.

14 And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.

I find this a pleasing fit.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

In a land where there are few people, and those people are trying to get by with growing enough food, gold and silver would probably have very little useful or intrinsic value. However, if (when Lehi got there) there were a fair number of people in the land, and they traded with one another, gold and silver then become useful as a medium of exchange.

These are good points, and points to which I tend to subscribe.

But this article is making me wonder if the presence of other inhabitants at this early stage is a necessary conclusion.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link to comment
But this article is making me wonder if the presence of other inhabitants at this early stage is a necessary conclusion.

I think that it is. In fact, I would posit that there have been people in the western hemisphere ever since Adam's time.

Is there any particular reason to assume that the W.H. has been totally unpopulated at any particular time?

Link to comment

This article wasn't stating a new fact that people lived WAAAY before BoM times, or even surprise that jewelry existed WAAAY before BoM times. It was simply that they had never seen jewelry dated this early in this particular area, which is nowhere near the BoM. IIRC, the earliest jewelry they had found was 3500bc.

4000bc was a shock to one scholar, and a yawner to another scholar in the same article.

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what this has to do with Mormonism or the BoM. Other than something new was found and the strawman of critics saying "everything has been found" can be knocked down again.

Link to comment

I think that it is. In fact, I would posit that there have been people in the western hemisphere ever since Adam's time.

Is there any particular reason to assume that the W.H. has been totally unpopulated at any particular time?

I am not suggesting that the western hemisphere was unpopulated ever.

Only that what may seem textual evidence necessitating the existence of other inhabitants in the specific area of the land of Nephi at about 545 B.C. with whom the burgeoning Nephites could trade may not necessitate their existence.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link to comment

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what this has to do with Mormonism or the BoM. Other than something new was found and the strawman of critics saying "everything has been found" can be knocked down again.

Hi, Scottie!

I am trying to be as clear as I can that I do not see this as evidence for or against the Book of Mormon; only that I see it as contextualizing more comfortably for me what otherwise had appeared to me an unusually early mention of gold amongst the Nephtites being used as apparel to create class distinctions.

Is that a modest enough proposition for you to buy into with me?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link to comment

I think it is interesting that a very basic hunter-gatherer people still found the time and cared enough about beauty and adornment to make this beautiful jewelry. Maybe beauty is a basic human need.

Maybe you are right.

Or maybe avarice and class distinctions are a basic human vice.

By the way, I think you would look sensational in that necklace.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link to comment

Hi, Scottie!

I am trying to be as clear as I can that I do not see this as evidence for or against the Book of Mormon; only that I see it as contextualizing more comfortably for me what otherwise had appeared to me an unusually early mention of gold amongst the Nephtites being used as apparel to create class distinctions.

Is that a modest enough proposition for you to buy into with me?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Bear with me here. I'm really trying to learn from this.

Why did you think that the early Nephites wouldn't have class distinctions, and why would you believe they wouldn't use adornments to seperate the classes?

Link to comment

Bear with me here. I'm really trying to learn from this.

Why did you think that the early Nephites wouldn't have class distinctions, and why would you believe they wouldn't use adornments to seperate the classes?

I'm sensing a growing unity in our positions here, Scottie.

We are the world.

We are the children.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link to comment
All I am saying is that it helps me see how even at an early stage of a civilization, this kind of thing could happen--in the Americas--well in advance of any alleged Nephite arrival.

Should we chalk up another one for the Book of Mormon?

If the article is true, of course we should.

Link to comment

Should we chalk up another one for the Book of Mormon?

No. Everything has been found. Obviously this was something stolen from an Old World site in Mesopotamia that was planted in Peru to make LDS who swallow it look foolish. The whole scheme was carried out by covert Masonic commandos and an Algerian-Frenchman named Jose Duchamps. Now delete the entire post before you look foolish consig!

Link to comment

I think an undiscussed problem with metals and the BOM is that current scholarship places the BOM in Guatamala, an area known to be deplete of these precious metals, that as Jacob pointed out, the land is suppose to â??abound plentifullyâ?. This geological lack of precious metals is why the prestige material of the Maya is jade.

The BOM seems to explicitly state that the land is rich with these metals geologicallyâ?¦this description will never match the highlands or lowlands of Guatamala.

The BOM mentions precious stones as well, South America was not particularly interested in precious stones but gold. It seems as far as these materials are concerned the BOM might better fit in the Intermediate Area between the Andean civilizations and Mesoamericaâ?¦that is Panama, Costa Rica, and Nicaragua where there was use of both materials.

I don't think this problem outweighs the fine work that has been done trying to place the BOM in a Central American context, but some apologetics between the text and the geological lack of precious metals in the proposed LGT should be worked out.

Link to comment

No. Everything has been found. Obviously this was something stolen from an Old World site in Mesopotamia that was planted in Peru to make LDS who swallow it look foolish. The whole scheme was carried out by covert Masonic commandos and an Algerian-Frenchman named Jose Duchamps. Now delete the entire post before you look foolish consig!

Somewhat accustomed to looking foolish, I am nevertheless desperately seeking in vain for my "delete entire post" button, Sir James.

Nice of you to drop by, though.

Hope you are well.

--Consiglieri

Link to comment

Was this 4,000 years ago, from Jaredite times, or from before?

If from before, then there should have been a thick layer of mud from Noah's flood

over the gold. If from after that, then yup -- this is as good as it gets for Jaredites.

UD

You are always good for a wry comment, Uncle Dale.

But given the fact that the thick layer of mud from the Deluge would likely have dried somewhat in the past several millenia and turned to dirt, I am thinking it likely that just such a specimen of dirt was in fact found "over the gold."

Or maybe the flood didn't make it to South America.

Or maybe it never really happened.

Just kidding.

Maybe.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...