Sheum=barley. Akkadian

[John Williams]

As discussed elsewhere, I do not believe this is a coincidence at all. Madagascar was inhabited by Arabs, and the 1 and 2 Nephi in the BOM is full of Arabic culture, as noted by Nibley.

Nope, no coincidence here. Those names, like the Egyptian names in the BOM, come from the early history of Nephi and Lehi when they left Jerusalem. Somehow they are tied together such that father and son have those names linked together.

It is just a matter of time when we will find the source of these names and perhaps link it to the Arabic culture of Lehi.

Please tell me you're kidding, Charles.

[Ron Beron]

QUOTE(cdowis @ Feb 29 2008, 09:08 PM)

As discussed elsewhere, I do not believe this is a coincidence at all. Madagascar was inhabited by Arabs, and the 1 and 2 Nephi in the BOM is full of Arabic culture, as noted by Nibley.

Nope, no coincidence here. Those names, like the Egyptian names in the BOM, come from the early history of Nephi and Lehi when they left Jerusalem. Somehow they are tied together such that father and son have those names linked together.

It is just a matter of time when we will find the source of these names and perhaps link it to the Arabic culture of Lehi.

Please tell me you're kidding, Charles.

Actually, he may have something here. There is certainly some evidence relating the Arabic trade routes to the world of Lehi/Nephi and the isle of Comoro was linked as well to Polynesian and Arabic cultures for many eons. Linkage of the names may be dubious, but the other stuff may have some credence.

[John Williams]

Actually, he may have something here. There is certainly some evidence relating the Arabic trade routes to the world of Lehi/Nephi and the isle of Comoro was linked as well to Polynesian and Arabic cultures for many eons. Linkage of the names may be dubious, but the other stuff may have some credence.

In the last 24 hours, I've been told that Lehi and his family were from Egypt, and now I'm told that they were linked to the Comoros through Arab trade routes. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see it. It's like we're grasping at stuff from far-flung corners of the Middle East in hopes it all makes sense. I really don't get it.

[cdowis]

Please tell me you're kidding, Charles.

lol

The idea that cement was used in ancient America was also laughable a few decades ago. This whole sheum thing must have you rolling on the floor.

Antimormon technique # 27: "I am unable to give a cogent response, so I will respond with mockery. Or I can remind them that there have been no horses found in mesoamerica. That always seems to work when I am short of answers."

What part of my post is so humerous ==>> Arabs inhabited Madagascar? That Lehi had evidence of Arabic culture? That the Mormons are able to actually give you an answer?

Please be very specific.

And while you are laughing, you might also jump on the thread regarding Greek names in the BOM. I look forward to your response there.

Greek names are in the BOM? (hahahahahaha)

Lehi and Nephi wrote in EGYPTIAN???!!!!!!! Hebrew and Egyptian??? (BWAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) (hysterical with laughter, gasping for air)

PS I really went over the top. But with over ten years talking to the antis, sometimes I just can't help it.

[John Larsen]

As discussed elsewhere, I do not believe this is a coincidence at all. Madagascar was inhabited by Arabs, and the 1 and 2 Nephi in the BOM is full of Arabic culture, as noted by Nibley.

Nope, no coincidence here. Those names, like the Egyptian names in the BOM, come from the early history of Nephi and Lehi when they left Jerusalem. Somehow they are tied together such that father and son have those names linked together.

It is just a matter of time when we will find the source of these names and perhaps link it to the Arabic culture of Lehi.

I ah.....never mind.

[Chris Smith]

As discussed elsewhere, I do not believe this is a coincidence at all. Madagascar was inhabited by Arabs, and the 1 and 2 Nephi in the BOM is full of Arabic culture, as noted by Nibley.

Nope, no coincidence here. Those names, like the Egyptian names in the BOM, come from the early history of Nephi and Lehi when they left Jerusalem. Somehow they are tied together such that father and son have those names linked together.

It is just a matter of time when we will find the source of these names and perhaps link it to the Arabic culture of Lehi.

Charles,

I have a difficult time understanding why you feel you have to posit so extraordinary a chain of events to somehow causally link Moroni/Comoros with Moroni/Cumorah. And what you've posited is an extraordinary chain of events, regardless of what you may think. It crosses at least 4 cultures, several centuries, and thousands of miles. There are several missing links, including why there exists the inherent linkage you posit between the two names and where in the "Arabic culture" these names are found. In short, your post constitutes some of the wildest speculation I've seen in a long time, and the only reason I can possibly think of to explain why you think such speculation is necessary is that you don't believe in coincidences. Your belief in the Book of Mormon is so entirely built on coincidences that you feel the need to impute meaning to completely random and meaningless parallels even when they don't support your views.

-Chris

[The Dude]

Charles,

I have a difficult time understanding why you feel you have to posit so extraordinary a chain of events to somehow causally link Moroni/Comoros with Moroni/Cumorah. And what you've posited is an extraordinary chain of events, regardless of what you may think. It crosses at least 4 cultures, several centuries, and thousands of miles. There are several missing links, including why there exists the inherent linkage you posit between the two names and where in the "Arabic culture" these names are found. In short, your post constitutes some of the wildest speculation I've seen in a long time, and the only reason I can possibly think of to explain why you think such speculation is necessary is that you don't believe in coincidences. Your belief in the Book of Mormon is so entirely built on coincidences that you feel the need to impute meaning to completely random and meaningless parallels even when they don't support your views.

-Chris

Exactly.

If you (cdowis) want to say Cumorah in the BoM is causally linked to Comoros in the Indian ocean, then fine. If you want to say that Moroni in the BoM is causally linked to Moroni in the Indian ocean, well, that's fine too. I think it's a tremendous stretch but you aren't doing anything you haven't done a hundred other times by cherry picking lingistic similarities and calling them hits.

But if you want to say the pairing of Cumorah (the Hill) and Moroni (the angel who haunted that hill) is causally linked to the pairing of Comoros (the island) and Moroni (the capital of the island), then you better have a whole lot more to say than "Arabic culture". There's a far better case in saying that it's just a coincidence and I'm conservatively and charitably suggesting we go there.

Otherwise, there's the old critic's case of saying Joseph Smith saw the names paired on a map or heard them paired in a story about pirates, and he transposed them into his story. That, at least explains the pairing. "Arabic culture" does not.

[Ron Beron]

In the last 24 hours, I've been told that Lehi and his family were from Egypt, and now I'm told that they were linked to the Comoros through Arab trade routes. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see it. It's like we're grasping at stuff from far-flung corners of the Middle East in hopes it all makes sense. I really don't get it.

I see your point. The evidence should indicate the result, but in many cases we throw those straws in the air and hope some make sense when they land. Sometimes those similarities and parallels are too perfect to ignore. Specific to the Comoros I think that settlement there was probably post-Lehite and more into the post-Christian world. There are some indications that it is related to the polynesian settlement.

[cdowis]

Charles,

I have a difficult time understanding why you feel you have to posit so extraordinary a chain of events to somehow causally link Moroni/Comoros with Moroni/Cumorah. And what you've posited is an extraordinary chain of events, regardless of what you may think. It crosses at least 4 cultures,

Is the number "four" somehow difficult for you? Are you one of those who think of the ancient world in one dimension? The Greeks were Greeks, the egyptians were egyptians, the Jews were Jews, and each culture uncontaminated by any other culture.

That is a very old point of view, and merely reflects your ignorance of the ancient world.

What you find incredible, I find very possible.

several centuries, and thousands of miles.

Sigh. And American culture has been effected by cultures thousands of mile away, and thousands of years ago (e.g. Greek, Roman).

Your logic is breathtaking in its simplicity and ignorance of history.

There are several missing links, including why there exists the inherent linkage you posit between the two names and where in the "Arabic culture" these names are found. In short, your post constitutes some of the wildest speculation I've seen in a long time,

Matched only by your ignorance of ancient history and culture. You may try to impress us with your credentials, but the application of your pretended knowledge is very apparent in this post, overly simplistic and profoundly uneducated.

In short, Chris, I am not particularly impressed by your opinion. You gonna have to do better than that.

You might start your education by reading Nibley's several books on the BOM, where he explains such connections. It's a good place to begin.

and the only reason I can possibly think of to explain why you think such speculation is necessary is that you don't believe in coincidences. Your belief in the Book of Mormon is so entirely built on coincidences that you feel the need to impute meaning to completely random and meaningless parallels even when they don't support your views.

-Chris

[Chris Smith]

Wow, Charles. So what you're saying is that I'm an ignorant, profoundly uneducated, overly simplistic, one-dimensional thinker parading my credentials to fool you into accepting my opinion. That's an excellent argument; clearly you must be right and I must be wrong.

American culture is not a good model for understanding the ancient world, Charles. American culture has the printing press and the internet, which not only help import ideas from other cultures, but which also crystallize those ideas and stabilize language. We also have airplanes, automobiles, and steel ships. And we've only been around for a couple hundred years. The Arabs arrived in Madagascar in the seventh century. That means that between Lehi's departure and the earliest Arab influence in Madagascar there was more than a millennium. A lot of cultural and linguistic drift could happen in a millennium in the ancient world, especially when you're talking about small immigrant groups merging with other cultures as in the case of Lehi's group. If you could posit some kind of actual mechanism for the connection you're positing, then I'd be more than willing to listen. But until you do, you are making a truly wild and unfounded assertion.

[cdowis]

Wow, Charles. So what you're saying is that I'm an ignorant, profoundly uneducated, overly simplistic, one-dimensional thinker parading my credentials to fool you into accepting my opinion. That's an excellent argument; clearly you must be right and I must be wrong.

That pretty well sums it up, except I have no opinion on who is right or wrong. You could very well be right, but "you gotta do better than that" in your analysis.

American culture is not a good model for understanding the ancient world, Charles.

I am not commenting on ancient history, but on your logic. "Thousands of miles, and thousands of years" is flawed logical analysis, as the American experience proves.

Your logical flaw here prevents me from taking you seriously, but it is possible to redeem yourself with additional analysis, if you feel so inclined to give it.

American culture has the printing press and the internet, which not only help import ideas from other cultures, but which also crystallize those ideas and stabilize language. We also have airplanes, automobiles, and steel ships. And we've only been around for a couple hundred years. The Arabs arrived in Madagascar in the seventh century. That means that between Lehi's departure and the earliest Arab influence in Madagascar there was more than a millennium.

Yawn. Place names and the names of individuals are persistent.

Don't need steel ships, internet, or even the printing press for people to have retained such names, over the millenia.

In order to continue this absurd conversation, please give us an explanation of the signature topic:

whence comes the word sheum, as listed among the grains. While you are at it, how about the authentic egyptian names, Paanchi, and Pahoran. If you can give a cogent response to that issue, instead of thrashing about, it would be worthwhile to continue this conversation.

A lot of cultural and linguistic drift could happen in a millennium in the ancient world, especially when you're talking about small immigrant groups merging with other cultures as in the case of Lehi's group. If you could posit some kind of actual mechanism for the connection you're positing, then I'd be more than willing to listen. But until you do, you are making a truly wild and unfounded assertion.

You cannot comprehend that names are persistent over the centuries?? "You gotta do better than that".

[Ron Beron]

The Arabs arrived in Madagascar in the seventh century. That means that between Lehi's departure and the earliest Arab influence in Madagascar there was more than a millennium.

With respect, there is evidence that Malaysian and Polynesian explorers arrived as early as the 1st century A.D. followed by settlers from Arab countries. That Malays and South Sea islanders could've brought with them cultural influences from the America's is not outside the realm of possiblity. Probability? That is something else.

[cdowis]

Again, we are speculating on possibilities, since I am no big fan of coincidences.

Lehi and family was a multiculture family == Jew, Arab, egyptian, etc. We have egyptian, Akkadian, Hebrew names in the BOM, and why not Arab names.

It is possible that Lehi carried several unmentioned families with him on his trip (he was in the wilderness for eight years). Mulek also carried families with him as well, so the Arabic families may have come with them, as well as the names. We find Greek names in the BOM, so Greek sailors went with Mulek.

Yes, this is speculative, but the basic alternative is just another coincidence.

[facie ad faciem]

Lehi and family was a multiculture family == Jew, Arab, egyptian, etc. We have egyptian, Akkadian, Hebrew names in the BOM, and why not Arab names.

It is possible that Lehi carried several unmentioned families with him on his trip (he was in the wilderness for eight years). Mulek also carried families with him as well, so the Arabic families may have come with them, as well as the names. We find Greek names in the BOM, so Greek sailors went with Mulek.

Didn't Nibley theorize that Laman and Lemuel were "pendant names" following more bedouin/Arab tradition and linguisitc derivation than Hebrew?