Sheum=barley. Akkadian

[Olavarria]

[Joseph Antley]

Good question, since the Nephites almost positively didn't speak Akkadian.

I would say coincidence. I don't know why the Nephites would have used an Akkadian cognate for the Hebrew word, or maybe the Egyptian word. I suppose it's possible that they could have had some Akkadian influence either through Babylon or Assyria, but I don't know what version of Akkadian you're referring to.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Maybe from the Jaredites....

[Ron Beron]

Good question, since the Nephites almost positively didn't speak Akkadian.

I would say coincidence. I don't know why the Nephites would have used an Akkadian cognate for the Hebrew word, or maybe the Egyptian word. I suppose it's possible that they could have had some Akkadian influence either through Babylon or Assyria, but I don't know what version of Akkadian you're referring to.

Good question, since the Nephites almost positively didn't speak Akkadian.

I would say coincidence. I don't know why the Nephites would have used an Akkadian cognate for the Hebrew word, or maybe the Egyptian word. I suppose it's possible that they could have had some Akkadian influence either through Babylon or Assyria, but I don't know what version of Akkadian you're referring to.

A Maxwell Center paper, " Barley and Wheat in the Book Mormon" by Robert Bennett has this,

In 1973 Robert F. Smith, an authority on ancient Near Eastern languages, pointed out that sheum is "a precise match for Akkadian [she'um], 'barley' (Old Assyrian 'wheat'), the most popular ancient Mesopotamian cereal-name" (Robert F. Smith. "Some 'Neologisms' from the Mormon Canon," in Conference on the Language of the Mormons [Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Language Research Center, 1973], 66). This point has since been discussed in subsequent treatments of the subject by other LDS scholars.

[Jaybear]

OK, my point isnt to say, "Ohhhh in your face anti's"! My questian is, why does this BoM name have an Akkadian root? Any theories?

You question assumes that the word "sheum" is actually akkadian for barley.

I did a word search for "sheum" on the online Akkadian dictionary and received this response:

The Akkadian word 'sheum' not found in dictionary http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/cuneiform.la...nary/search.php

In any event, if sheum is barley, and the BOM was a translation from reformed egyptian, then the reformed egyptian word for barley should have appeared on the plates and "barley" should have appeared in the book.

Unless you are saying that when He came upon the reformed egyptian word barley, God couldn't figure out which English term to use, so he reverted to an Akkadian word.

[charity]

Jaybeear, are you assuming that every language on earth is a pure form of its mother language, with no borrowing of words. Your English vocabulary must be very limited.

[Jaybear]

Jaybeear, are you assuming that every language on earth is a pure form of its mother language, with no borrowing of words. Your English vocabulary must be very limited.

You insult is misplaced, Charity.

I have made no assumptions.

It was Her Annum's statement which is premised on the assumption that the word "sheum" found in the BoM is the akkadian word for barley.

[maklelan]

You insult is misplaced, Charity.

I have made no assumptions.

It was Her Annum's statement which is premised on the assumption that the word "sheum" found in the BoM is the akkadian word for barley.

You question assumes that the word "sheum" is actually akkadian for barley.

I did a word search for "sheum" on the online Akkadian dictionary and received this response:

The Akkadian word 'sheum' not found in dictionary http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/cuneiform.la...nary/search.php

It absolutely is an Akkadian word for barley. See Alasdair Livinstone, "The Akkadian Word for Barley: A Note from the Schoolroom," Journal of Semitic Studies 42.1 (1997): 1â??5. The opening paragraph say the following:

The staple cereal crop and food of the Sumerians and Babylonians was barley. The Sumerian word for this was she and a century of Assyriological research has accepted the existence of an Akkadian word she'um, "barley." Such was the position of W. Muss-Arnolt in his Concise Dictionary of the Assyrian Language of 1905. W. von Soden in his Akkadisches Handworterbuch gives a lemma she'u, "Gerste, Getreide," in the fascicle which appeared in 1976. Most recently the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary (CAD) has within the three volumes devoted to the letter sh a ten-page entry on she'u, "barley, grain," the volume in question bearing the date 1992. As to etymology, W. Muss- Arnolt was misled by J. Halevy into postulating a Semitic root for grain shee. W. von Soden unhestitatingly explains she'um as a loanword from Sumerian; CAD does not as a rule take a position on etymology outside Akkadian.

See also The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, ed. Ignace J. Gelb, et al. (Chicago: Oriental Institute, 1992), 17.2.345â??55; and Hildegard Lewy, "On Some Old Assyrian Cereal Names," Journal of the American Oriental Society 76.4 (1956): 201.

[The_Monk]

OK, my point isnt to say, "Ohhhh in your face anti's"! My questian is, why does this BoM name have an Akkadian root? Any theories?

David Bokovoy and I discussed this on a thread a while back. In essence, I assume it's a frozen form left over from Akkadian-speaking Jaredites.

[thesometimesaint]

The_Monk:

Can we safety say "Adieu" to the argument that certain words should not appear in an English translation.

[Nevo]

In any event, if sheum is barley, and the BOM was a translation from reformed egyptian, then the reformed egyptian word for barley should have appeared on the plates and "barley" should have appeared in the book.

"Barley" does appear actually: "And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land." (Mosiah 9:9)

So apparently the Nephites tilled the ground with barley and corn and wheat and barley and lots of other seeds.

[Doctor Steuss]

"Barley" does appear actually: "And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land." (Mosiah 9:9)

So apparently the Nephites tilled the ground with barley and corn and wheat and barley and lots of other seeds.

I think sheum was probably a nut or legume.

[Olavarria]

David Bokovoy and I discussed this on a thread a while back. In essence, I assume it's a frozen form left over from Akkadian-speaking Jaredites.

That makes the most sense to me.

Or it could be a uniqly nephite word, with an akkadian root, which is then applied to a barley-like crop. But I see the Jaredites as the transplantors of the root word too.

Kinda like ziff and metal:

Ziff

Mosiah 11:3,8

3) "And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver , and a fifth part of their ziff and of their copper , and of their brass and their iron ; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain. And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper..."

Some have likened ziff with the Hebrew z

[The_Monk]

"Barley" does appear actually: "And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land." (Mosiah 9:9)

So apparently the Nephites tilled the ground with barley and corn and wheat and barley and lots of other seeds.

None of these words or other similar terms are terribly specific, as a farmer or food scientist or geneticist could tell you. It's quite possible the Nephites knew one particular grain by its Akkadian (Jaredite?) term "sheum", recognized or analogized another using a Hebrew/Nephite term "barley," and that neither corresponds strictly (but may be related) to what we generically refer to as "barley" today.

[cdowis]

You question assumes that the word "sheum" is actually akkadian for barley.

I did a word search for "sheum" on the online Akkadian dictionary and received this response:

Please look Here

I notice that you were a participant on this thread. Why is it necessary to continue to spoon feed you?

The antis have poisoned your mind, and we continue to repeat ourselves as you ask the same questions over and over again.

In any event, if sheum is barley, and the BOM was a translation from reformed egyptian, then the reformed egyptian word for barley should have appeared on the plates and "barley" should have appeared in the book.

Unless you are saying that when He came upon the reformed egyptian word barley, God couldn't figure out which English term to use, so he reverted to an Akkadian word.

It does not only mean barley ==> Sheum can refer to any grain, as mentioned in my reference above. Thus, sheum in the BOM is probably a loan word referring to some grain unknown to JS and his contemporaries.

The Lord knew what grain it referred to, but there was no English word for it.

Did you give this any thought? The answer was so simple.

[John Larsen]

I am missing something here. Why do you think that Sheum means barley in the BOM?

[John Williams]

I am missing something here. Why do you think that Sheum means barley in the BOM?

If I read the apologetics right, "sheum" is supposed to be a generic word for grain. Its pairing with "neas" is interesting. If the Nephites are using Akkadian "sheum," would that suggest that "neas" is related or also derives from Akkadian? Is there any support for the use of "neas" in Akkadian or any other Middle Eastern language as a grain or seed (which is what the context suggests)?

[Sethbag]

Too bad "bling" doesn't appear in the Book of Mormon. That would be really cool. "And it came to pass, that the more part of the people did wax in their inquities, and in their pride, and did wear costly apparel, yea, even fine-twined linen, and silks, and scarlet, and gold, and silver, and all manner of bling."

I too am curious why it would be trumpeted that "she`um" means barley in Akkadian, when barley itself is already identified in the BoM as... barley. And if she`um just stands in for some generic concept of grain, why not just use the word "grain"? Again I'm struck by the difficulty God apparently had in finding appropriate English language words with which to render concepts recorded on the Golden Plates.

[John Williams]

Too bad "bling" doesn't appear in the Book of Mormon. That would be really cool. "And it came to pass, that the more part of the people did wax in their inquities, and in their pride, and did wear costly apparel, yea, even fine-twined linen, and silks, and scarlet, and gold, and silver, and all manner of bling."

I too am curious why it would be trumpeted that "she`um" means barley in Akkadian, when barley itself is already identified in the BoM as... barley. And if she`um just stands in for some generic concept of grain, why not just use the word "grain"? Again I'm struck by the difficulty God apparently had in finding appropriate English language words with which to render concepts recorded on the Golden Plates.

I think "bling" = "ziff" in the Book of Mormon.

[maklelan]

Too bad "bling" doesn't appear in the Book of Mormon. That would be really cool. "And it came to pass, that the more part of the people did wax in their inquities, and in their pride, and did wear costly apparel, yea, even fine-twined linen, and silks, and scarlet, and gold, and silver, and all manner of bling."

I too am curious why it would be trumpeted that "she`um" means barley in Akkadian, when barley itself is already identified in the BoM as... barley. And if she`um just stands in for some generic concept of grain, why not just use the word "grain"? Again I'm struck by the difficulty God apparently had in finding appropriate English language words with which to render concepts recorded on the Golden Plates.

It's relevant because sheum is presented among a list of grains, and was thought to be one of the words Joseph Smith made up, until it was discovered that sheum happens to be an ancient Near Eastern designation for grain. It comes from Sumerian and is also attested in Akkadian. The question of why they used one word instead of another is completely and totally irrelevant. It's an artificial concern.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If I read the apologetics right, "sheum" is supposed to be a generic word for grain. Its pairing with "neas" is interesting. If the Nephites are using Akkadian "sheum," would that suggest that "neas" is related or also derives from Akkadian? Is there any support for the use of "neas" in Akkadian or any other Middle Eastern language as a grain or seed (which is what the context suggests)?

I fail to see why "neas" automatically has to be akkadian. Perhaps you can shed some light John?

There are a million and 1 reasons why "neas" doesnt have to be akkadian. Im sure you could think of one ore 2 with out my help.

( I realize my last sentance might seems insulting, it is not meant as one. John you are a bright fellow. and you certainly dont need my help in anything.)

[John Williams]

I fail to see why "neas" automatically has to be akkadian. Perhaps you can shed some light John?

There are a million and 1 reasons why "neas" doesnt have to be akkadian. Im sure you could think of one ore 2 with out my help.

( I realize my last sentance might seems insulting, it is not meant as one. John you are a bright fellow. and you certainly dont need my help in anything.)

I was just asking. No, they don't need to be related (and I didn't say they automatically were), but their position together suggests that they could be related, simply because both were used among the Nephites. I guess a better way of asking my question would be: Has anyone found a source for the word "neas" and is there some reason the Nephites would have used this term?

[krose]

David Bokovoy and I discussed this on a thread a while back. In essence, I assume it's a frozen form left over from Akkadian-speaking Jaredites.

So you posit that the Jaredites spoke Akkadian, and that was the language that they were allowed to keep (it was not "confounded")? How is it, then, that it was also spoken by those left behind in the Middle East?

Does it also follow that the Jaredite plates were 'written' in cuneiform, but on metal instead of clay?

[The Dude]

I agree with Joseph Antley that's it's probably just a coincidence. There doesn't need to be any causal connection between "sheum" in the BoM and "she'um" in an ancient near eastern languages.

OTOH, it is not a coincidence that LDS apologists have found this pairing across space and time. These kinds of exercises are just a way for LDS apologists spend their rainy afternoons. Over time, as more and more rainy afternoons pass since the death of Joseph Smith, LDS believers are certain to dig up more and more pairings of tenuous logic. This can be counted on.

[Olavarria]

I think "bling" = "ziff" in the Book of Mormon.

Ziff

Mosiah 11:3,8

3) "And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver , and a fifth part of their ziff and of their copper , and of their brass and their iron ; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain. And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper..."

Some have likened ziff with the Hebrew z