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Christopher Columbus Reports


Zakuska

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You call Columbus's and others diaries and observations as... "unproven ideas-thoughts-propaganda-or the just plain silly". I'll remember that the next time a critic brings up the fact that the Indians didn't have any metal tools, or called horse and riders sacred dogs.

:P

Did you see the source material?

http://www.doaks.org/GoldandPower/GoldandPower10.pdf

Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection

Washington, D.C.

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It actually isn't very controversial that Native Americans had either metal implements or metal ornaments. They did. I have on my wall two copper "axes" that the Aztecs used as a type of currency (they are so thin that they were certainly more symbolic than functional).

The issue for the Book of Mormon isn't whether there was metal before Columbus. There was, unequivocably. The issue is when. Dates are usually post-Book of Mormon.

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The Development and Construction of the Large Maya Trading Vessel Used in Their Overseas Voyages to the Caribbean and to Florida

There is a mistaken belief that the Maya did not possess functional metal cutting tools

and like the Taino and Caribs were limited to primitive stone tools for construction of their

trading vessels. This study will show that the Chontal Maya were a worldly and sophisticated

seafaring people who were not limited to primitive stone tools, but with their expertise in

metallurgy had developed efficient bronze cutting tools with which they constructed large

composite seaworthy vessels, far superior to the primitive log canoes of the islands.

http://www.newworldexplorersinc.org/MayaSeafarers.pdf

Chontal Maya where using trading vessels to trade with Florida, the apex of the culture was about the year 300 of the common era...

The territory of the Yokot'an was the cradle of the Olmec civilization, which lived there from about 1400 BCE until about 400 BCE. The Maya civilization reached its height in about the year 300 of the Common Era. At this time, the Yokot'an were also at their cultural apex. They had already begun to decline by the time of the Spanish conquest of Yucatan, and are mentioned in the narratives of Bernal D
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Brant,

What do you make of these?

In Columbus's Journal of his forth voyage he describes a Mayan Sea vessel and its cargo:

Columbus described one of these offshore trading vessels in detail in the account of his

fourth voyage (1502) when anchored at the island of Guanaja in the Bay of Honduras. Columbus

(as related by Ferdinand) described the Maya vessel thus:

There arrived at that time a canoe long as a galley and 8 feet wide, made of a single tree

trunk like the other Indian canoes; it was freighted with merchandise from the western regions

around New Spain [Mexico]. Amidships it had a palm-leaf awning like that which the Venetian

gondolas carry; this gave complete protection against the rain and waves. Under this awning

were the children and women and all the baggage and merchandise, cotton mantles and

sleeveless shirts embroidered and painted in different designs and colors, hatchets resembling the

stone hatches used by the other Indians but made of good copper, crucibles for smelting ore,

wine made from maize that tastes like English beer, and cacao beans as currency. There were

twenty five paddlers aboard but they offered no resistance (Keen 1959:231-232).

A Spanish friar also describes metal tools being used by the Mayan... and other Indian cultures of the Gulf of Mexico.

Sahagun, a Spanish friar who lived among the Mixtec in the early sixteenth-century has

pictured their typical cutting tools in his Florentine Codex (Sahagun 1963). The Mixtec (Zapotec

in the formative period) were close trading neighbors of the Chontal Maya and these pictured

tools were ostensibly similar to those in use throughout Mesoamerica. The tools pictured by

Sahagun, shown in Figure 16, were those in use at the time of the Spanish conquest, but probably

date to a much earlier period. The drawing on the left shows a woodworker felling and trimming

a large tree with an axe that is in reality a large broad faced straight chisel with a well designed

and functional lashed on handle. Another illustration in the Florentine Codex (not shown)

pictures this same type of straight chisel being used with a separate wooden mallet to carve an

elaborate wooden figurine. The drawing on the right shows what appears to be an adze used in

construction of the canoe in which it rests. The adze appears to have been fashioned from a

molded curved and shaped cutter with a similar lashed integral wood handle. Two woodworkers

in the background carry two squared beams with a row of drilled holes (probably drilled with

impact drills) to receive wood pegs for joining to another member.v The clean cuts on the tree,

the precisely squared beams with drilled holes, and the intricate carved eagle head on the canoe,

could only have been accomplished with sharp bronze cutting tools and would be impractical

with the use of stone tools.

Peter Martyr in his De Orbe Nova gives positive evidence that the natives of Nueva

Espana had alloyed bronze cutting tools when he indicated they used well sharpened axes,

then stated they had alloyed [i.e., bronze] hatchets [axes] used by the natives to cut down trees

(Martyr 1970:194,216). And Bernal Diaz noted these alloyed metal tools when he reported that

in the native market there are for sale axes of brass and copper and tin (Diaz del Castillo

1956:217). Columbus reported the large Maya canoe in the Bay of Honduras contained hatchets

made of good copper [i.e., bronze] and hawk s bells of copper (a soft copper bell will not ring,

but a bronze bell will) and crucibles to smelt it (Keen 1959: 232). Yet current archaeologists are

reluctant to accept historical evidence of bronze tools because none have been found in

archaeological investigations and steadfastly insist that the Maya had no metal tools (Sharer

1994:39,641-642).

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You call Columbus's and others diaries and observations as... "unproven ideas-thoughts-propaganda-or the just plain silly". I'll remember that the next time a critic brings up the fact that the Indians didn't have any metal tools, or called horse and riders sacred dogs.

:P

Did you see the source material?

http://www.doaks.org/GoldandPower/GoldandPower10.pdf

Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection

Washington, D.C.

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Hey you want to put a bid in on the Golden Gate bridge?

I never met anyone who bites as much as you do on unproven ideas-thoughts-propaganda-or the just plain silly.

Sorry ----- now back to the thread everyone is ignoring :P

I have never seen someone so willing to reject ANY source that does not support their beliefs. If the "Columbus Diaries" said emphatically that there were no metal weapons; you would post it here to make your case against Mormonism.

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Now if im not mistaken 'Guanin" (bronze) is the same Alloy that is called 'steele' in the KJV. Columbus sent samples of these "spears and axes" back to the king and queen.

They where CASTING gold and cooper alloy according to Columbus and other eye witnesses!

Yes, you are mistaken. Once again you cite Wikipedia without checking out the cited sources. 'Guanin' in the article, also called "low gold," is how Columbus referred to a gold/copper alloy, which is neither bronze nor steel. It's tumbaga. Here's the article Wikipedia cites:

The conquistadors also distinguished between what they called â??good goldâ? and â??low gold.â? The former consists of objects of high gold content and low amounts of alloy metals, whereas the latter refers to alloys usually of high copper content (guan
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Its already been linked John.

Mayan Sea Farers

Pg 12

Do you even read your sources? Peck spends 3 pages discussing possible metallurgy among the Chontal Maya but concedes repeatedly that "no archaeological finds have confirmed that the Maya had bronze tools."

Academic acceptance of the view that the Maya did not possess bronze tools is based on an argument from silence because archaeologists in their numerous investigations in Maya territory have yet to uncover a single bronze cutting tool, but stone tools are abundant and readily found.

His theory that they did have such tools is entirely speculative and rests on the statements of the Spanish conquistadores, which again is unrelated to questions of earlier, possibly Nephite metallurgy.

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Do you even read your sources? Peck spends 3 pages discussing possible metallurgy among the Chontal Maya but concedes repeatedly that "no archaeological finds have confirmed that the Maya had bronze tools."

His theory that they did have such tools is entirely speculative and rests on the statements of the Spanish conquistadores, which again is unrelated to questions of earlier, possibly Nephite metallurgy.

I did read that. Did you read his explanation as to why?

Academic acceptance of the view that the Maya did not possess bronze tools is based on

an argument from silence because archaeologists in their numerous investigations in Maya

territory have yet to uncover a single bronze cutting tool, but stone tools are abundant and readily

found. The few Maya metal artifacts that are available for study have largely been found by

archaeologists in the tombs of Maya kings. These limited metal artifacts in the tombs of kings

were ceremonial medallions and jewelry made from pure soft copy since pure copper will take a

polishing shine that rivals gold. The archaeologists then come to the invalid conclusion that the

only use of metal by the Maya was for ceremonial medallions and jewelry from soft copper

rather than functional bronze tools for the workers. A noble Maya king would hardly carry the

unsightly and unpolished hard bronze tool of a worker or slave into his grave, so this rationale

has no merit. The valuable and scarce axes and other bronze tools of the workers would not have

been abandoned or buried for archaeologists to find at a later date, but would continue in use

until this scarce metal was melted down to make more modern tools or implements and thus

would lose their early Maya identity.

Hmm.... that sounds just like what FARMS has been saying and getting Laughed at.

Take for example a construction company of our day and age. When the boss dies... do all his tools get buried up with him? His cranes and steam rollers and tool chests et. al. Or are they passed on and used by others?

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I did read that. Did you read his explanation as to why?

Take for example a construction company of our day and age. When the boss dies... do all his tools get buried up with him? His cranes and tool chests etc. Or are they passed on and used by others?

And as I said, his reasons are entirely speculative. Let's suppose he's right that whatever existing tools were melted down and reworked into more modern tools. Do we have any evidence anywhere in the world where we know that metal tools were used but that the original tools were thus obliterated? We generally know that specific tools were used when we have examples of those tools.

Peck's theory is 100% speculation. Heck, I could suggest that the Maya had cell phones but that with time the phones were melted down and made into tumbaga earrings. Why not?

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LOAP,

The Critics actually think that the Mayan Hewed all that stone with its intricate details with "stone chisels"?

It makes reason stare!

Did not the Egyptians build the valley of the kings with "copper Chisels"? And how many copper chisels have been found in the valley of the kings? How did they Hewy all that stone for the Pyramids?

The next thing we know they'le be running down some poo to fling at Peck.

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LOAP,

The Critics actually think that the Mayan Hewed all that stone with its intricate details with stone chisels?

It makes reason stare!

Oddly enough, it's not just the critics who think that. It's the consensus among the scientific community. Even Peck acknowledges that. Apparently, the archeological community has taken it upon themselves to go out of their way to discredit Book of Mormon ideas of pre-Mayan metallurgy.

Why do you suppose they believe this?

For one thing, there are no traces of metal tools but ample evidence of stone tools. For another (as Peck reminds us) thing, metal ore was not widely available in the Mayan areas of population. So, you would have us accept that the Maya traveled to distant lands to get the ore to make tools that there are no traces of.

Yes, it does make reason stare.

And Zak, there's no need to fling "poo" when the research you cite is so highly speculative and devoid of evidence.

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So, you would have us accept that the Maya traveled to distant lands to get the ore to make tools that there are no traces of.

Ether 7: 9

9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

Apparently they travelled some where to get it.

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You want evidence John...

The Mayans DID have Metal tools...

Hardend copper tools where excavated from a 140 foot well at Chitzan Itza! Chitzen Itza fell at 1000AD. True, 600 Years too late for the BOM. But it began just 200 years after BOM times. (700AD) But could a well used Chisel have lasted 600+ years? Sure! Ive got a 100 year old hammer from My grandpa.

According to the evidence, the remarks of these authorities are not quite accurate. As a practising architect of wide experience, I have had an intensive theoretical and practical training in architecture and the allied arts, and after a very careful examination of scores of Maya structures in all the principal known cities in Yucatan, it is my opinion that metal tools were used extensively in the execution of the work. In support of my beleif, I quote as follows from an article by T. Athol Joyce, M.A., South American Marvels in Masonry: "It is true that the peruvians possed tools of copper which owing to accidental admixtures of tin, were, in some cases, bronze."

T.A. Willard, who was more than casually intrested in the contents of the immense cenote in Chicehn-Itza, Yucatan, record in his book, The City of the Sacred Well, a list of items of inestimable value raised from ther bottom of the one hundred and forty-foot well, including several hardened copper tools. Speaking of the salvage operations, he says: "Specimens of well modeled hard copper chisels were recovered at varioyus times. Some are small, others of the customary size and shape of Moderne chisels, but with the heads burred, showing much use."

This link even has pictures of the metal tools that where excavated there.

Mayan Metal tools as depicted in the Murals!

Primary source: City of the Sacred well

PS... you wanted evidence of copper and bronze (tambaga) being translated as steel

KJV:

2 Sam. 22: 35

35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

NIV:

2 Samuel 22:35 (New International Version)

35 He trains my hands for battle; my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

-----

KJV:

Job 20: 24

24 He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

NIV:

Job 20:24 (New International Version)

24 Though he flees from an iron weapon, a bronze-tipped arrow pierces him.

-----

KJV:

Ps. 18: 34

34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

NIV:

Psalm 18:34

34 He trains my hands for battle; my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

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CFR.

There is only one being in the universe who knew both Reformed Egyptian and English, and had the capability to communicate with Joseph through the seer stone.

There may have been some weak links in the transmission from ancient Reformed Egyptian to the printed Book of Mormon, but the translation from one language to the other was done by an omnipotent being with a perfect knowledge of both languages.

So, when dictating the book, Joseph said "steel" because God told him to. There may be many reasons why God told him to, but it certainly wasn't because He didn't know.

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