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Yet Another Bull's-eye For The Book Of Mormon?


consiglieri

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In another thread, Zakuska has shown that the Hebrew word "pathah" is translated as being "spacious, open, or wide," in addition to its translation as "to entice or deceive."

Is this a coincidence in the Book of Mormon that the people who are "deceived" by the mists of darkness go into a "great and spacious building," from which they seek to "deceive" and "entice" other believers away from the Tree of Life?

In other words, is this a nice play on words in the Book of Mormon text that would be noticeable only to one who spoke Hebrew?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

__________________

Zakuska's Post:

Lets take a look at the word translated as "deceived".

pathah H6601

1) to be spacious, be open, be wide

a) (Qal) to be spacious or open or wide

B ) (Hiphil) to make spacious, make open

2) to be simple, entice, deceive, persuade

a) (Qal)

1) to be open-minded, be simple, be naive

2) to be enticed, be deceived

B ) (Niphal) to be deceived, be gullible

c) (Piel)

1) to persuade, seduce

2) to deceive

d) (Pual)

1) to be persuaded

2) to be deceived

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In another thread, Zakuska has shown that the Hebrew word "pathah" is translated as being "spacious, open, or wide," in addition to its translation as "to entice or deceive."

Is this a coincidence in the Book of Mormon that the people who are "deceived" by the mists of darkness go into a "great and spacious building," from which they seek to "deceive" and "entice" other believers away from the Tree of Life?

In other words, is this a nice play on words in the Book of Mormon text that would be noticeable only to one who spoke Hebrew?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

__________________

Zakuska's Post:

If the Book of Mormon is translated from Reformed Egyptian, why does Hebrew matter? Without knowledge of Reformed Egyptian, how can you establish any connectedness between the English and Hebrew words?

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If the Book of Mormon is translated from Reformed Egyptian, why does Hebrew matter? Without knowledge of Reformed Egyptian, how can you establish any connectedness between the English and Hebrew words?

Why don't you try to answer that question for yourself, without the attitude. Start by referring to the written language of the the Book of Mormon correctly, i.e. reformed Egyptian, not Reformed Egyptian. Good luck.

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Just as Yiddish is Hebrew written in a Germanic alphabet (with lots of borrowed words, naturally), so might reformed Egyptian be Hebrew written in one of the simplified Egyptian scripts. In any case, Hebrew was the first language of the Lehites, so their language structure, idioms, etc., their "accent", if you will, would still have come through.

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If the Book of Mormon is translated from Reformed Egyptian, why does Hebrew matter? Without knowledge of Reformed Egyptian, how can you establish any connectedness between the English and Hebrew words?

I'm not a linguist, but here is my two cents worth.

It was the written language that was "reformed egytian". So they borrowed a writing system form egypt, and modified it for their own language.

Japan borrowed it's writing system from the Chinese and modified it for their own language. The kanji characters have very similar if not identical meanings, but are pronounced differently at times. Now the Japanese language is not at all similar to the Chinese language so it had to be modified to make it work. Japan has an alphabet that it uses in conjunction with the kanji characters, to conjugate verbs, add grammar etc., which China does not have. A lot of words in Japanese have the same root meaning and can retain the same pronounciation for that particular kanji character.

So in a sense, Japanese could be said to be "reformed Chinese", and knowing the root word in Chinese would help to understand the Japanese version of the word.

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If the Book of Mormon is translated from Reformed Egyptian, why does Hebrew matter? Without knowledge of Reformed Egyptian, how can you establish any connectedness between the English and Hebrew words?

The large plates were written in Reformed Egyptian.

The Book of Mormon is unclear what the small plates were written in.

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If the Book of Mormon is translated from Reformed Egyptian, why does Hebrew matter? Without knowledge of Reformed Egyptian, how can you establish any connectedness between the English and Hebrew words?

By the same theoretical process through which scholars detect Semitic (aramaic) puns and paranomasia in the Greek of the New Testament.

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Just as Yiddish is Hebrew written in a Germanic alphabet (with lots of borrowed words, naturally), so might reformed Egyptian be Hebrew written in one of the simplified Egyptian scripts. In any case, Hebrew was the first language of the Lehites, so their language structure, idioms, etc., their "accent", if you will, would still have come through.

Yiddish is actually a germanic dialect with a bunch of Polish and Hebrew words in it, but written in Hebrew.

USU "I actually had to read some Yiddish stuff in the original during my grad school days" 78

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The large plates were written in Reformed Egyptian.

The Book of Mormon is unclear what the small plates were written in.

Well, Nephi writes that he is writing in the language of his fathers, which consisted of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians. So, I'm assuming that is the beginning of the reformed Egyptian that Mormon later identifies as the script he is using, though I assume as well that the written language went through some radical transformations over the course of 1.000 years. But you make a good point. Nephi, who would have been much closer to a knowledge of Hebrew than Mormon, never calls his script reformed Egyptian.

(I was kind of hopen soren would be able to see these things on his own.)

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The large plates were written in Reformed Egyptian.

The Book of Mormon is unclear what the small plates were written in.

The characters on the plates are reformed Egyptian, not necessarily the language, which is never specified, except that Moroni (?) sez they'd changed the Hebrew over the centuries. Whether that means the Hebrew alphabet or the spoken language it doesn't say.

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Does the fact that the point made in the OP immediately devolved into an argument regarding the language used on the gold plates mean that the bull's-eye is conceded if the language is Hebrew-related?

With the exception of Mighty Curelom, who uses the term "corporeal" to describe Joseph Smith's first vision--a term Joseph Smith did not himself use.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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Does this mean you concede it helps prove the Book of Mormon "true" if we accept the "tight translation" theory?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

IF I were to concede that reformed Egyption is really Hebrew and IF I were to concede that this was a tight translation...

I will admit that it is an amusing coincidence...and I use the term coincidence VERY loosely.

You would have to work pretty hard to justify this is into a solid hit.

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IF I were to concede that reformed Egyption is really Hebrew and IF I were to concede that this was a tight translation...

I will admit that it is an amusing coincidence...and I use the term coincidence VERY loosely.

You would have to work pretty hard to justify this is into a solid hit.

I'll settle for an "amusing coincidence."

From my point of view, however, the Book of Mormon abounds in such "amusing coincidences."

At some point, they should probably be considered to cross over the line from "amusing coincidences" to "serious coincidences" to "amusing evidence" to "serious evidence."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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Can someone point out where it says that anyone was "deceived" or "enticed"??

Those 2 words are never used anywhere in chapter 8.

23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.

24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.

25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.

26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.

27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

Lot of talk about falling away, being lost, and scorn, but nothing about enticing or deceiving.
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I'll settle for an "amusing coincidence."

From my point of view, however, the Book of Mormon abounds in such "amusing coincidences."

At some point, they should probably be considered to cross over the line from "amusing coincidences" to "serious coincidences" to "amusing evidence" to "serious evidence."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Not a chance. It just can't be true. Remember?

Can someone point out where it says that anyone was "deceived" or "enticed"??

Those 2 words are never used anywhere in chapter 8.

Lot of talk about falling away, being lost, and scorn, but nothing about enticing or deceiving.

So, are you saying "decieved or "enticed" have nothing to do with what is being said in the Tree of Life vision(s)?

:P

Too busy looking at the trees to notice the forest?

;)

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So, are you saying "decieved or "enticed" have nothing to do with what is being said in the Tree of Life vision(s)?
Yes, that's what I'm saying.

There is a lot of shame, and pointing of fingers, and mocking, but I see no enticing.

If we are going to try and play word games, shouldn't the words we're trying to play with actually exist somewhere in the passage we're talking about?

...or are we back to loose translations???

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Yes, that's what I'm saying.

There is a lot of shame, and pointing of fingers, and mocking, but I see no enticing.

If we are going to try and play word games, shouldn't the words we're trying to play with actually exist somewhere in the passage we're talking about?

...or are we back to loose translations???

Who is playing word games?

The meaning(s) of that Hebrew word are not contained in the account(s) of the vision of the Tree of Life?

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Who is playing word games?

The meaning(s) of that Hebrew word are not contained in the account(s) of the vision of the Tree of Life?

Lets start over...

In the OP, Consig says,

In another thread, Zakuska has shown that the Hebrew word "pathah" is translated as being "spacious, open, or wide," in addition to its translation as "to entice or deceive."

Is this a coincidence in the Book of Mormon that the people who are "deceived" by the mists of darkness go into a "great and spacious building," from which they seek to "deceive" and "entice" other believers away from the Tree of Life?

In other words, is this a nice play on words in the Book of Mormon text that would be noticeable only to one who spoke Hebrew?

Now, the words in question are deceive or deceived, entice and great and spacious building.

I see great and spacious building in chapter 8 (the Tree of Life chapter), but I don't see the words deceive, deceived or entice anywhere.

How can we say that we have a (and I quote Consig) "play on words" if the words don't even exist in the chapter we're discussing?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited to add: I also checked Chapter 15, where Nephi interprets the dream. No mention of deceiving or enticing there either.

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Lets start over...

In the OP, Consig says,

Now, the words in question are deceive or deceived, entice and great and spacious building.

I see great and spacious building in chapter 8 (the Tree of Life chapter), but I don't see the words deceive, deceived or entice anywhere.

How can we say that we have a (and I quote Consig) "play on words" if the words don't even exist in the chapter we're discussing?

Edited to add: I also checked Chapter 15, where Nephi interprets the dream. No mention of deceiving or enticing there either.

I'm not sure "play on words" equals "word games." The meaning probably depends on the context and intent of the one using the terms. Imagine that.

Nevertheless, are you going to answer my question about finding the meaning of that Hebrew word in the account(s) of the vision of the Tree of Life? Are you trying to say that unless specific words are used the meaning of said words cannot be there? In other words, unless one uses the words "deceived" and "enticed" then the meaning of those words cannot be conveyed?

Further, are you trying to say that the common interpretations of deception and enticement being portrayed in the accounts of the vision of the Tree of Life are figments of the collective LDS imagination?

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I'm not sure "play on words" equals "word games." The meaning probably depends on the context and intent of the one using the terms. Imagine that.
Yes, the differences there are staggering. How silly of me...
Nevertheless, are you going to answer my question about finding the meaning of that Hebrew word in the account(s) of the vision of the Tree of Life? Are you trying to say that unless specific words are used the meaning of said words cannot be there? In other words, unless one uses the words "deceived" and "enticed" then the meaning of those words cannot be conveyed?

Look.

The argument here is that the same hebrew word for "great and spacious building" also means "to deceive and entice". Zak and Consig were trying to draw a bulls-eye because those words were all used in the tree of life scenario.

I'm saying that neither "deceived" nor "enticed" is used anywhere in the chapter. Therefore the play on words is a silly proposal, let alone a bulls-eye!

And, no, I don't see anywhere in the text that even comes close to saying that anyone was deceived or enticed at all. Please, by all mean, point me to where I am wrong. Show me where anyone was deceived or enticed.

Further, are you trying to say that the common interpretations of deception and enticement being portrayed in the accounts of the vision of the Tree of Life are figments of the collective LDS imagination?
Interpretations of the tree of life story are a completely different subject.

You can't have a subjective interpretation of something, reading text that isn't there, and then say that it's a bulls-eye because we have interpreted it this way and a Hebrew word means something similar to what we've interpreted.

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How about this from chapter 12 of 1 Nephi?

18 And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men. And a great and a terrible gulf divideth them; yea, even the word of the justice of the Eternal God, and the Messiah who is the Lamb of God, of whom the Holy Ghost beareth record, from the beginning of the world until this time, and from this time henceforth and forever.

19 And while the angel spake these words, I beheld and saw that the seed of my brethren did contend against my seed, according to the word of the angel; and because of the pride of my seed, and the temptations of the devil, I beheld that the seed of my brethren did overpower the people of my seed.

Would "temptations" be close enough to "enticements" for you?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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