Things I Dont Get About Facsimilie 1

[Olavarria]

1) No other known Documents of Breathings Made by Isis are illustrated

with lion couch scenes. Nothing in the so-called Document of Breathings

Made by Isis mentions anything remotely connected to the lion couch

scene. The lion couch scene is not an illustration of the text and the

text is not helpful in interpreting the illustration. So the real

questions are: (1) how do we know what the scene meant to the ancient

Egyptians and (2) how will we know if our interpretation is correct?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Tr...Book_of_Abraham

2) Why is the figure wearing pants? If this is a ressurection scene, an embalming scene or Osiris impregnating Isis who is in the form of a bird, shouldn't he be naked.

3) Why does the Abraham/Osiris/Hor have his hands in the prayer position? Bird's wings dont have opposable thumbs.

Hieroglyphic Text Accompanying the Vignette.

(1) . . . godâ??s servant of Amon-Re, [king] of the gods, godâ??s servant of Min, . . . beautiful . . . , priest of Khonsu, the controller of . . . (2) . . . H

[kamenraider]

1) No other known Documents of Breathings Made by Isis are illustrated

with lion couch scenes. Nothing in the so-called Document of Breathings

Made by Isis mentions anything remotely connected to the lion couch

scene. The lion couch scene is not an illustration of the text and the

text is not helpful in interpreting the illustration. So the real

questions are: (1) how do we know what the scene meant to the ancient

Egyptians and (2) how will we know if our interpretation is correct?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Tr...Book_of_Abraham

2) Why is the figure wearing pants? If this is a ressurection scene, an embalming scene or Osiris impregnating Isis who is in the form of a bird, shouldn't he be naked.

3) Why does the Abraham/Osiris/Hor have his hands in the prayer position? Bird's wings dont have opposable thumbs.

It makes more sense to me that the facsimilies have no connection to the Book of Abraham, but were assumed to be part of it due to them being published with it in the Times & Seasons.

What leads you to connect facsimile 1 to Abraham? The fact that there are unique elements in it?

[bjw]

What has puzzled me about Facsimile 1 is the names of the gods on the four canopic jars. I thought about doing a poll on it on a separate thread. On the surface it appears that JS took the names from Exodus 6 and just modified them a bit and used them. However, I've been reading some of Hugh Nibley's commentary on the subject and I found out some interesting things:

1. Elkenah: Canaanite god of Kenah, El-Kenah, could be god of Kenites, Mitani and Hurians called themselves Kenites or Kenah people, god is more than likely of â??north.â? An â??Urâ? was in Kenite land. (Cyrus Gordon wrote on this god.)

2. Libnah: Means white. Can mean white land because of feminine ending. Lands of mothers of inhabitants. Lebanon means â??white mountain.â? Similar to Libya. It has the jackylâ??s head of Anubis. Hermann Case has shown that Anubis has two epithets: â??lord of the white landâ? and â??chief of the west.â? White land is not necessarily upper Egypt. May mean the â??land of the dead.â? More than likely the lord of the â??west.â?

3. Mahmackrah: Head of hippo. Nibley thinks it may refer to â??south.â? â??Mahâ? actually means â??north.â? (Egyptian) â??Mahâ? and â??mackâ? can mean â??great and exalted godâ? in Sumerian.

4. Korash: Korah suggests the pride of Korash or Koraish. Koraish was due east of Heliopolis. The Koraish family is the family of Mohammed. â??Reshâ? is the Egyptian word for â??south.â?

5. Pharaoh: Crocodile was family god of Egyptian royal family. We can assume other 4 gods were royal family gods of other lands.

So, if Hugh Nibley is correct this may actually be a bulls-eye for Joseph Smith and not just simply plagiarism from Exodus 6. Also, in facsimile 2 the gods are identified as the earth in its four quarters. Since Nibley thinks each god somehow refers to a direction this may not be too far-fetched.

As for the lion-couch scene, I just wonder if sacrifices were ever performed on lion couches. It seems like I remember Nibley saying they were. If we could find another lion-couch scene that we know refers to sacrifice it might go a long way in proving the validity of facsimile 1.

As for it not fitting in with the Book of Breathings, maybe there is more than one book on the scroll, like the scroll being a collection of books with the Book of Breathings and maybe a few others like the Book of Abraham. Was there any kind of custom to bury a person with a collection of their favorite literature along with the breathing permit?

[Olavarria]

It makes more sense to me that the facsimilies have no connection to the Book of Abraham, but were assumed to be part of it due to them being published with it in the Times & Seasons.

What leads you to connect facsimile 1 to Abraham? The fact that there are unique elements in it?

hmmm, I wonder if the BoA was attached to the BoB or on a different scroll that was meant to be a companion to the BoB. Who knows?

In 1842, the fragments we now have in the

Joseph Smith Papyri were mounted in â??a number of glazed

slides, like picture frames, containing sheets of papyrus, with

Egyptian inscriptions and hieroglyphics.â?37 The next year, in

1843, a nonmember named Charlotte Haven visited Lucy Mack

Smith and wrote a letter to her own mother about it:

Then she [Mother Smith] turned to a long table,

set her candlestick down, and opened a long roll of

manuscript, saying it was â??the writing of Abraham

and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sanscrit,â? and she

read several minutes from it as if it were English. It

sounded very much like passages from the Old

Testamentâ??and it might have been for anything we

knewâ??but she said she read it through the inspiration

of her son Joseph, in whom she seemed to have

perfect confidence. Then in the same way she

interpreted to us hieroglyphics from another roll. One

was Mother Eve being tempted by the serpent,

whoâ??the serpent, I meanâ??was standing on the tip of

his tail, which with his two legs formed a tripod, and

had his head in Eveâ??s ear.38

If Nibleyâ??s source seems suspect for being late, oral, and

from a Mormon, this other source (which Nibley did not cite)

nevertheless says the same thingâ??but is contemporary, written,

and from a non-Mormon. Notice that the vignette described

matches none of those in the Joseph Smith papyri we have from

the Metropolitan Museum.39 And there seem indeed to have

been two long rolls even after the present fragments of the

Joseph Smith Papyri were mounted. If there were only two rollsit is important to note that Joseph Smith Papyri I-XI were not on them.

39 There is a slight resemblance to a scene in Papyrus Joseph

Smith V, but the walking serpent there is not â??standing on the tip of his

tail,â? his tail does not form a â??tripodâ? with his two legs, and his head is at

nobodyâ??s ear.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=cmV2aWV3

I find it interesting that the BoA ends at the Gard of Eden and that the BoB is a prayer to a dead priest which reminds him of the blessings he will recieve in the next life; blessing his various body parts that they fill function in the next life as they did in this one,doning his priestly regalia and that he is expected to enter the company of the egyptian gods and be one with them.

Given the BoA's thematic emphasis on priesthood and recieving the "blessings of the fathers" Hor might have seen the BoB as a good companion text. You and I know who the Gods in BoA are, but that doesnt mean Hor did. Rememeber the Greco-Roman period saw syncretism with jewish religion that I dont think existed in the Middle and New Kingdoms.

[Chris Smith]

bjw,

While I'm trying to restrain myself because I really don't have time for a BoA fracas today, here's something that you might want to take into account with respect to the canopic deities.

-Chris

hmmm, I wonder if the BoA was attached to the BoB or on a different scroll that was meant to be a companion to the BoB. Who knows?

If you think nobody knows that, then you're getting rusty.

[Olavarria]

bjw,

While I'm trying to restrain myself because I really don't have time for a BoA fracas today, here's something that you might want to take into account with respect to the canopic deities.

-Chris

If you think nobody knows that, then you're getting rusty.

Hey, long time no see. I dont have time for a royal rumble either.

What do you make of Charlotte Evans account? Just curious.

[Chris Smith]

What do you make of Charlotte Evans account? Just curious.

Charlotte Haven? I think the "long roll" she saw was the remainder (i.e. the currently-missing portion) of the BoB roll, which would have been something like 3-5 feet, if I recall correctly, and which Gustavus Seyffarth would later (in 1857) describe in terms that exactly match what we expect to have been on the roll: an incantation to the deity Osiris on which appears the name of the deceased, Horus, and a vignette that fits the description of facsimile 3. The Haven account makes it quite clear that the Mother Eve vignette was "from another roll"; we are not told that this roll was intact at the time Haven saw it, and IMO it was almost certainly preserved under glass. This would be the BoD, which JS identified as the "Book of Joseph".

[bjw]

bjw,

While I'm trying to restrain myself because I really don't have time for a BoA fracas today, here's something that you might want to take into account with respect to the canopic deities.

-Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the link. I didn't know there was more than one manuscript of the BoA. Interesting.

[Olavarria]

Charlotte Haven? I think the "long roll" she saw was the remainder (i.e. the currently-missing portion) of the BoB roll, which would have been something like 3-5 feet, if I recall correctly, and which Gustavus Seyffarth would later (in 1857) describe in terms that exactly match what we expect to have been on the roll: an incantation to the deity Osiris on which appears the name of the deceased, Horus, and a vignette that fits the description of facsimile 3. The Haven account makes it quite clear that the Mother Eve vignette was "from another roll"; we are not told that this roll was intact at the time Haven saw it, and IMO it was almost certainly preserved under glass. This would be the BoD, which JS identified as the "Book of Joseph".

Waht abouts Gee's time table?

In 1842, the fragments we now have in the

Joseph Smith Papyri were mounted in â??a number of glazed

slides, like picture frames, containing sheets of papyrus, with

Egyptian inscriptions and hieroglyphics.â?37 The next year, in

1843, a nonmember named Charlotte Haven visited Lucy Mack

Smith and wrote a letter to her own mother about it:

[Chris Smith]

Waht abouts Gee's time table?

Bottom line: not all of the papyri were mounted. Just the parts that were falling apart. We know from Seyffarth's 1857 statement that the majority of the Breathings roll was intact when he viewed it.