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Nofear

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Archaeologist 'strikes gold' with finds of ancient Nasca iron ore mine in Peru (news article)

Hematite Mining in the Ancient Americas: Mina Primavera, A 2,000 Year Old Peruvian Mine (published article: http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~kjvaughn/mp.pdf)

How does the use of ochre/hematite relate to the Book of Mormon? The article says that they may have used the ochre for ceramic paints and possibly body paints. I'm not seeing a connection here.

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How does the use of ochre/hematite relate to the Book of Mormon? The article says that they may have used the ochre for ceramic paints and possibly body paints. I'm not seeing a connection here.

I still thought the article was very interesting. I've never given much thought to rocks and minerals, and hadn't even made the connection between red ochre and iron (although it seems entirely obvious now--duh!) It's funny how something can be considered wonderful and useful in one place, and such an annoyance in others (like that "dirty orange bathtub ring" at the cabin!)

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It is already known that meteoric iron was available in mesoamerica in limited quantities.

Meteoric iron is exceedingly rare. In the ancient old world, it was more valuable than gold, and was used for ornamentation. Are you trying to suggest that all of the iron and steel refered to in the BOM could have been meteoric in origin?

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Meteoric iron is exceedingly rare. In the ancient old world, it was more valuable than gold, and was used for ornamentation. Are you trying to suggest that all of the iron and steel refered to in the BOM could have been meteoric in origin?

Iron was listed as among the precious metals in the book of Mosiah. There is no evidence that these metals in the BOM were plentiful, except, perhaps, in the antimormon edition of the BOM.

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Please tell us what a BOM artifact would look like...

Heres an example... 1000 years from now one of yout great-great-great-....... grandkids. Becomes an archeologist... he has your journal and digs where he thinks your home might of been at a cerian time in your life. How is he going to identify something he finds as an artifact of "heathen"?

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Iron was listed as among the precious metals in the book of Mosiah. There is no evidence that these metals in the BOM were plentiful, except, perhaps, in the antimormon edition of the BOM.

I think your edition of the BOM serves the antis just fine.

You had to make me open my scriptures. The BOM index lists many references for iron and steel. Lets look at one in Ester 7:9 Shule went to a hill and made steel swords for his followers. One man doesn't just invent steel making technology. Historicaly (real history, not the faith based variety) this has required many generations and no small amount of iron. (Please don't argue that by steel, the author meant iron, because the BOM does refer to steel and iron as two seperate things. (2 Nephi 5:15)) The metalurgical know how, not to mention the amounts required to make swords, cannot have been fostered with the few small random bits of iron a society might find here or there in the form of meteors.

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Please tell us what a BOM artifact would look like...

Heres an example... 1000 years from now one of yout great-great-great-....... grandkids. Becomes an archeologist... he has your journal and digs where he thinks your home might of been at a cerian time in your life. How is he going to identify something he finds as an artifact of "heathen"?

Wheels, wheat, and the whole list of things which church doubters cite as problems with the BOM.

In your scenario, I might be hard to personally identify. (If I were a major leader responsible for monumental archetecture, it would be a different story.) Many of the historical circumstances of my civilization would be easy to find.

Evidence of wheels would be abundant in our landfills. Study of our farming and food processing sites would show we ate wheat.

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I think your edition of the BOM serves the antis just fine.

Based on almost 20 years talking with them, they obviously have their own edition of the BOM. For example, there are millions of steel swords lying around all over the Americas, according to their edition of the BOM.

You had to make me open my scriptures. The BOM index lists many references for iron and steel. Lets look at one in Ester 7:9 Shule went to a hill and made steel swords for his followers. One man doesn't just invent steel making technology. Historicaly (real history, not the faith based variety) this has required many generations and no small amount of iron. (Please don't argue that by steel, the author meant iron, because the BOM does refer to steel and iron as two seperate things. (2 Nephi 5:15)) The metalurgical know how, not to mention the amounts required to make swords, cannot have been fostered with the few small random bits of iron a society might find here or there in the form of meteors.

In my edition of the BOM, Ether (there is no "Ester" in my edition) is talking about the ****Jaredites*****. The Nephites clearly did not have the same iron deposits available to the Jaredites. Did you read the reference in Mosiah where iron was a precious metal?

Or is that missing from your edition of the BOM?

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Based on almost 20 years talking with them, they obviously have their own edition of the BOM. For example, there are millions of steel swords lying around all over the Americas, according to their edition of the BOM.

In my edition of the BOM, Ether (there is no "Ester" in my edition) is talking about the ****Jaredites*****. The Nephites clearly did not have the same iron deposits available to the Jaredites. Did you read the reference in Mosiah where iron was a precious metal?

Or is that missing from your edition of the BOM?

I'm not sure why the ****Jaredites**** would have access to anything different than the ****Nephites**** or the ****Lamanites**** or ****Whoever else****, since they all lived in the same place. Yes, the BOM shows iron and steel disapearing after Mosiah.

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I'm not sure why the ****Jaredites**** would have access to anything different than the ****Nephites**** or the ****Lamanites**** or ****Whoever else****, since they all lived in the same place. Yes, the BOM shows iron and steel disapearing after Mosiah.

I realize that you do not understand, but the Jaredites had plenty of iron ore, and the Nephites did not. That is very clear from the LDS edition of the BOM.

Why that is true, the BOM does not tell us, but I can think of at least two or three reasons why this occurred. I don't know, but I can guess.

If you give it some thought, I bet you can think up something as well, assuming you have at least a high school education.

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I realize that you do not understand, but the Jaredites had plenty of iron ore, and the Nephites did not. That is very clear from the LDS edition of the BOM.

Why that is true, the BOM does not tell us, but I can think of at least two or three reasons why this occurred. I don't know, but I can guess.

If you give it some thought, I bet you can think up something as well, assuming you have at least a high school education.

Careful, don't give me too much credit. (Might disappoint my BYU professors.) I think the Jaredites had more luck finding ore because they had better seer stones.

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Wheels, wheat, and the whole list of things which church doubters cite as problems with the BOM.

How about...

Barley - that wasnt supposed to be here

Chickens brought by Polynesians that werent supposed to be here.

Your also forgetting the Wheeled pull toys all over the place...

http://www.ambergriscaye.com/museum/digit4.html

In your scenario, I might be hard to personally identify. (If I were a major leader responsible for monumental archetecture, it would be a different story.) Many of the historical circumstances of my civilization would be easy to find.

Hmmm.... so lets see... 10,000 years from now how is an archeologist going to identfy this peace of stone as part of the World Trade Center?

Evidence of wheels would be abundant in our landfills. Study of our farming and food processing sites would show we ate wheat.

We found the barley... ;)

We know they had wheels...

These combined into one photos I took you see above are part of the Maya Palenque Palace outside the city of Palenque in the southern state of Chiapas in Mexico and the sketches are sketches taken from ancient stone glyphs. As you can see by the Maya Palenque stone glyph the Maya sailed the Atlantic between the Yucatan and Africa(and were even familiar with the Ross Sea of Antarctica). Many ot the Maya children toys excavated in the ruins are African elephants, hippos, lions and other far away animals as well as local animals. Usually toys found are pull toys employing wheels. No other May use of the wheel has yet been authenticated. Perhaps they used the wheel from time to time for specialized jobs and then smelted the iron and made it into large stele. You can view large ancient Maya moulded iron stele at the Mexico museum of anthtopology in Mexico City. But then the Maya with an advanced (very advanced) system of mathmatics and knowledge of weight scales required each bean seller at the market place to count out each bean.

http://www.nylicsocialworkeramazonas.com/id4.html

Use of the wheel by the Mayans

And what are all these "Atlantic sea voyages" of the Mayan between Africa and America? :P

And these MOLDED iron Stella?

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Your also forgetting the Wheeled pull toys all over the place...

http://www.ambergriscaye.com/museum/digit4.html

Good link. As it's author points out, there is no evidence of wheels for the kinds of practical conveyances refered to in the BOM such as chariots. One likely reason he posits for the lack of practical wheeled conveyances is the fact that there were no animals such as horses (also refered to in the BOM) to pull them. When I said there were no wheels, I neglected to account for toys.

Hmmm.... so lets see... 10,000 years from now how is an archeologist going to identfy this peace of stone as part of the World Trade Center?

As your statement correctly suggests, not everything which exists will survive in the archeological record. However, once professional archeologists have surveyed at enough locations, certain conclusions will be fairly certain. While the WTC won't be found, the fact that many of our urban centers contained skyscrapers will not be in dispute. (If there were to exist some group whose holy books taught that 21st century Americans lived and worked exclusively in tents, it's adherants will be forced to rely on faith, as facts on the ground will not support that teaching.) If our society drys up and blows away before the Salt Lake Temple is for some reason obliterated, that temple will be a major part of historians' understanding of Brigham Young.

And these MOLDED iron Stella?

800 years after Mosiah's iron, but still interesting. I will read up on the rest of your points later.

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I like this one beter...

http://www.ambergriscaye.com/museum/digit4.html

The sacbeob at one Maya site (Coba) in the Yucatan of Mexico connects several major architectural groups, the longest running in an almost perfect straight line for over sixty miles! Archeologists have found what may have been stone rollers used to compact the road bed during construction. but no wheels.

A sixty mile long straight road?! :P

Why, then, were the Maya and other native populations without carts or wagons? Certainly they had the concept. so why were they transporting every thing on someone's back? The answer probably lies in the fact that there were no animals around suitable to pull a wagon or cart. Horses and burros were unknown in the New World. having become extinct thousands of years ago. Without draft animals a cart is not particularly useful. Then too. the area in which the Maya lived did not lend itself to road construction and that fact lives on until this very day. Rural areas are more easily accessed by foot or along narrow trails than by car or truck. Streams and rivers were the highways of the Maya. with extensive trade and commerce carried out by fleets of canoes. Ambergris Caye figured prominently in the maritime trade and our international border with Mexico was constructed by the Maya to facilitate canoe passage. More about that another time.

I also have to disagree here... If they where "unknown" why are they depicted on temple walls built hundreds of years prior to the arival of the Spanish?

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1112748050049978437JPxLgk

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1112747974049978437DmGdaD

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1112747988049978437vSZPbk

PS. Archeoilogist estimate that they have only excavated 5% of this complex. What else are we going to find?

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