Byu Admissions

[kamenraider]

My friend that attended BYU Hawaii said he heard from someone there that applications from non-members were automatically rejected, but were cosidered if they applied a second time.

Is this true? Or false? Could it be be because of space limitations? It could be seen as discrimination against people who aren't Mormon, but there must be an explanation that makes more sense than that.

Anyone out there hear of this sort of thing?

[Ihearya]

My friend that attended BYU Hawaii said he heard from someone there that applications from non-members were automatically rejected, but were cosidered if they applied a second time.

Is this true? Or false? Could it be be because of space limitations? It could be seen as discrimination against people who aren't Mormon, but there must be an explanation that makes more sense than that.

Anyone out there hear of this sort of thing?

http://saas.byu.edu/admissionsServices/sch...ns/pf/index.htm

Should clarify any questions. You should get the correct answer to your question from BYU directly.

[mhalcrow]

I had this letter published in BYU's Daily Universe a little while

back:

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/58096

Perhaps the dialog that followed sparked a change in the verbiage on

the ecclesiastical endorsement form. The admissions form now reads:

``Please check this box if the applicant is currently excommunicated,

disfellowshipped, on formal probation, or if the applicant has

requested that his or her name be removed from the records of the

Church. Note: Applicants currently under formal Church disciplinary

action are not admissible until reinstated to full fellowship.''

A person who has resigned his membership cannot be under ``formal

Church disciplinary action'' since that person is no longer a member

of the church. I wonder if someone who no longer affiliates himself as

a Mormon, but who still wants to attend BYU for academic reasons,

would still be denied admission on the grounds of his religious

pedigree.

Mike

[rick7475]

Well, I'll be blunt and honest: I don't want non-Mormons or ex-Mormons at BYU. Why? Because I am discriminatory, selfish, and plain unfair. When I applied to BYU, I was turned down because of my grades which were very very very close to getting in. The reason I applied to BYU was because I wanted to go to a school with other Mormons. Out here in "the mission field" (in the East Coast of NA) I would be lucky if I ran into one or two Mormons at university. In fact, the university where I just received my Masters had no (read zero, zippo, none) Mormons in any of my classes. I have to put up with many many many worldly influences and tiny tiny tiny institute classes (if there are any at all). I might have gotten in if I were not competing with the 1 - 5% of the BYU population that were non-Mormon. There are a billion non-Mormon universities in all corners of the world to choose from, and lots with the same standards as BYU, but only a very tiny tiny tiny few schools that are almost all Mormon.

So, why don't those non-Mormons and ex-Mormons pick one of those billions and billions of non-Mormon universities in every country and corner of the world and leave BYU for us Mormons, so that my kids have a better shot at getting in and don't have to compete with non-Mormons whose tithes don't subsidize the school.

And if you think that if we exclude non-Mormons from the school, then the academic standards would drop ... puh'lease. There are 13 million Mormons to gather a fine selction of high academic achievers from. As for profs, in my stake alone there are three univeristy profs teaching at reputable colleges and universities, and many Mormon profs at better schools who I am sure (at least some percentage) would love to teach at BYU.

[Calm]

My friend that attended BYU Hawaii said he heard from someone there that applications from non-members were automatically rejected, but were cosidered if they applied a second time.

Is this true? Or false? Could it be be because of space limitations? It could be seen as discrimination against people who aren't Mormon, but there must be an explanation that makes more sense than that.

Anyone out there hear of this sort of thing?

I know one nonLDS who was admitted first time no problem. That was awhile back. A more recent one was the same. At least that's how I remember it. I'll ask if I get a chance. But why not just write BYU and ask them.

If this was some old or new policy the only reason I could think they would handle it this way is that they only want non-members who really want to come because it may be a difficult experience for them.

[kamenraider]

Yeah, I sort of had a hunch that it would be because there is probably not enough room at Church schools (which I think are tithing-supported, or were) for all the LDS members that want to get in, let alone the non-members.

[spinner]

My friend that attended BYU Hawaii said he heard from someone there that applications from non-members were automatically rejected, but were cosidered if they applied a second time.

Is this true? Or false? Could it be be because of space limitations? It could be seen as discrimination against people who aren't Mormon, but there must be an explanation that makes more sense than that.

Anyone out there hear of this sort of thing?

Not if they can play lock down man-to-man pass coverage (at BYU Provo, that is).

[urroner]

Not if they can play lock down man-to-man pass coverage (at BYU Provo, that is).

You are right. The Lord has His priorities right. Do you?

[spinner]

You are right. The Lord has His priorities right. Do you?

You're talking to a guy who made the trip from Hong Kong for the BYU-Utah game this year (and also for Thaksgiving).

[maxrep12]

Well, I'll be blunt and honest: I don't want non-Mormons or ex-Mormons at BYU. Why? Because I am discriminatory, selfish, and plain unfair. When I applied to BYU, I was turned down because of my grades which were very very very close to getting in. The reason I applied to BYU was because I wanted to go to a school with other Mormons. Out here in "the mission field" (in the East Coast of NA) I would be lucky if I ran into one or two Mormons at university. In fact, the university where I just received my Masters had no (read zero, zippo, none) Mormons in any of my classes. I have to put up with many many many worldly influences and tiny tiny tiny institute classes (if there are any at all). I might have gotten in if I were not competing with the 1 - 5% of the BYU population that were non-Mormon. There are a billion non-Mormon universities in all corners of the world to choose from, and lots with the same standards as BYU, but only a very tiny tiny tiny few schools that are almost all Mormon.

So, why don't those non-Mormons and ex-Mormons pick one of those billions and billions of non-Mormon universities in every country and corner of the world and leave BYU for us Mormons, so that my kids have a better shot at getting in and don't have to compete with non-Mormons whose tithes don't subsidize the school.

And if you think that if we exclude non-Mormons from the school, then the academic standards would drop ... puh'lease. There are 13 million Mormons to gather a fine selction of high academic achievers from. As for profs, in my stake alone there are three univeristy profs teaching at reputable colleges and universities, and many Mormon profs at better schools who I am sure (at least some percentage) would love to teach at BYU.

I hear what your saying.

From strictly a membership retention view, I believe BYU does a great job. Young lds students that receive a college degree outside of BYU, for example, are probably less likely to marry a church member and remain active(please no CFR's, its my opinion).

I think letting in 1 - 5% non members is really neither here nor there. Honestly, what I can't fathom is why the church is building a 2 billion dollar mall rather than taking the opportunity to build another church university, or at least a sizable expansion of BYU . In the long run I can't think of a better project, fewer young people are taking on their "adult responsibilities(getting married)" as has recently been stated.

[Baurak Ale]

In a recent Interview (podcast) by Sunstones president John Dehlin with Doctor Ted Lion, after being reminded he was going on record Doctor Lion stated the following, quote:

"When most of the Children of the General Authorities went to the University of Utah rather than going to BYU. That's changed now. Children of General Authorities get Free Tuition at BYU and Automatic Entrance. And so Ah, most of them are coming here now. Did you know that? You don't have to even do well in High School and you can get into BYU if you are the Child of a General Authority" end quote.

The following quote and interview is avialable via podcast on John Dehlins "Mormon Stories".

Doctor Ted Lion, is the son of the renown mormon scholar T. Edgar Lion. He has served as President of the Chile Mission, President of the Mission Training Centre in Chile he was also the personal spanish interpreter to Apostle Holland over a 3yrs while in Chile. He is currently serving as the Temple President of the Chile Santiago Temple.

I encourage a high degree of scrutiny of this post for any errors, as I am curious to know what the precise truth is in this matter. If anyone can contribute by either refuting or confirming this I am very interested. I recently e-mailed a large number of professors and faculty at BYU to inquire if this is indeed true, so far only a few have responded. BYU Admissions have so far been currently unavialable for comment. Five faculty members including four professors had no knowledge of the policy for granting free education to children of General Authorities. One Professor that was aware confirmed that it is true and that it extends to the Children of Mission Presidents and General Authorities and that as far as he is aware the policy has been in existence for over the last 20years at church run BYU.

One question I have is whether BYU is a tithing funded University? I would imagine if it is then some lds that have applied to BYU and been knocked back may have mixed feelings about their tithing paying for the education of the Children of lds General Authorities, while they may receive none even if they pay tithing or contribute to the perpetual education fund.

I would imagine if this policy exists then it would be kept extremely confidential. I find it hard to believe that such a policy exists as I would think many lds would view it as anti-eggalitarian, ecclesiatical elitism and nepotism, and if it is true and does exist then it would give endless ammunition to the Anti-Mormon Community all over the world wide web. I am quite concerned we may not have an apologetic answer for this one.

[mhalcrow]

Baurak Ale wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that such a policy exists as I would think

> many lds would view it as anti-eggalitarian, ecclesiatical elitism

> and nepotism, and if it is true and does exist then it would give

> endless ammunition to the Anti-Mormon Community all over the world

> wide web.

Oh, wow! Hey, thanks for the tip!

[Daniel Peterson]

My friend that attended BYU Hawaii said he heard from someone there that applications from non-members were automatically rejected, but were cosidered if they applied a second time.

Is this true? Or false? Could it be be because of space limitations? It could be seen as discrimination against people who aren't Mormon, but there must be an explanation that makes more sense than that.

Anyone out there hear of this sort of thing?

No.

In a recent Interview (podcast) by Sunstones president John Dehlin with Doctor Ted Lion, after being reminded he was going on record Doctor Lion stated the following, quote:

"When most of the Children of the General Authorities went to the University of Utah rather than going to BYU. That's changed now. Children of General Authorities get Free Tuition at BYU and Automatic Entrance. And so Ah, most of them are coming here now. Did you know that? You don't have to even do well in High School and you can get into BYU if you are the Child of a General Authority."

I wouldn't be surprised (or bothered) if children of General Authorities who had been admitted to BYU received a tuition discount. After all, children of professors (and presumably of other employees) are given a 50% discount on tuition (if they're accepted), and faculty spouses can attend for free. General Authorities have been taken out of the normal job market by the University's sponsor and are often serving at considerable financial sacrifice, so I would be fine if one of the (really very limited) perks they received happened to be a discount for their children on tuition at BYU.

I would, however, be surprised if their children were guaranteed admission to BYU Provo no matter what their grades and test scores might be. For one thing (as Thomas Sowell has documented with regard to preferential admissions for ethnic minorities to elite schools), admitting underprepared or incapable students very frequently serves merely to set them up for failure, and does them no favor at all. No matter how admitted, a student who has once matriculated receives no preferential treatment as regards grading. A "D" student in high school will probably not survive undergraduate courses at any reasonably selective university or college.

If, on the other hand, the Church guaranteed that college-interested children of General Authorities could enroll at one of the Church schools -- including not merely BYU Provo, but also BYU Hawaii, BYU Idaho, and LDS Business College, that would be fine with me for the reasons mentioned above. (They tend to be much less selective than is the Provo campus.)

[rick7475]

I don't have an issue with spouses or children of employees of BYU getting discounts or free tuition, this is pretty standard at many other institutions. However, I do have a problem accepting the fact that children of GA's may get into BYU or other church sponsored schools above other candidates. I highly respect the GA's of the church, but parental lineage should not factor into an admission review at any institution. For the millions of members who are converts whose parents have never had any connection to the church this is grossly unfair. Not that children of GA's are born with a silver spoon, but in isolated stakes and far reaching wards and branches, GA's are treated like royalty, and this priviledge for their children only re-affirms that perception.

[kamenraider]

BYU's admissions policy web page says:

The university admits persons of either sex and of any race, creed, religion or national origin who meet the universityâ??s admission requirements and agree to abide by standards of behavior as established by the university.

...yet the demographics page says that 98% of students there are LDS. That seems a little odd.

I wonder how many non-LDS people apply that meet the admission requirements -- no more than 2%?

[Daniel Peterson]

I don't have an issue with spouses or children of employees of BYU getting discounts or free tuition, this is pretty standard at many other institutions. However, I do have a problem accepting the fact that children of GA's may get into BYU or other church sponsored schools above other candidates.

We don't know that to be true, by the way.

I highly respect the GA's of the church, but parental lineage should not factor into an admission review at any institution.

The fact remains, however, that it often does. And notoriously so at certain Ivy League institutions, for example.

Not that children of GA's are born with a silver spoon, but in isolated stakes and far reaching wards and branches, GA's are treated like royalty, and this priviledge for their children only re-affirms that perception.

Most distant wards and branches aren't capable of treating anybody "like royalty," and General Authorities are, on the whole, living lives that are far from luxurious.

BYU's admissions policy web page says:

...yet the demographics page says that 98% of students there are LDS. That seems a little odd.

Perhaps. But there's no contradiction.

BYU has never made a promise to include non-LDS in proportion to their representation in society as a whole, or anything like that. BYU is funded by Latter-day Saints, and it exists to serve the children of Latter-day Saints. It would be a betrayal of its mission and a dereliction of its duty were it to enroll a majority of non-Mormon students, or even a substantial proportion of them.

I wonder how many non-LDS people apply that meet the admission requirements -- no more than 2%?

I doubt that a huge number of non-LDS high school students apply to BYU. The fact that only roughly 2% of the student body is non-LDS goes, by itself, no distance whatever toward demonstrating discrimination against non-Mormons -- which, in any case, would be perfectly fine.

[oats]

Do you know what the standards of behaviour are? Do you think they appeal to the typical college student?

And you'll probably only find the non-Mormons in the highly regarded programs anyhow. If they have to come from far away, then they'll probably only do that for programs that are better than what they have close by.

And judging by the sentiments a lot of people have about Mormons, it seems that many of the people who would live the standards of behaviour probably have some prejudice against Mormons and wouldn't want to attend the school anyways.

Taking all that into account, I can't imagine more than 5%, max, being non-LDS.

[kamenraider]

Another church-sponsored university's (i.e. Catholic University of America) statistics on religious affiliation for comparison:

Religious Affiliation

CUA welcomes members of all religious faiths.

Catholic students:

Undergraduate 88%

Graduate 59%

(From http://publicaffairs.cua.edu/factbook/facts.html )

[Daniel Peterson]

It wouldn't bother me a bit if the leaders of Catholic U decided, from here on out, to require that 100% of both its undergraduate and graduate students be Catholic. They would be entirely within their rights to do so.

[Baurak Ale]

Daniel Petersen: I wouldn't be surprised (or bothered) if children of General Authorities who had been admitted to BYU received a tuition discount. After all, children of professors (and presumably of other employees) are given a 50% discount on tuition (if they're accepted), and faculty spouses can attend for free. General Authorities have been taken out of the normal job market by the University's sponsor and are often serving at considerable financial sacrifice, so I would be fine if one of the (really very limited) perks they received happened to be a discount for their children on tuition at BYU.

I agree with you here, however we are not talking about a 'DISCOUNT' what we are talking about is a complete financial educational free ride for the Children of General Authorities, simply by virtue of them holding ironically ecclesiatical rank. Who knows perhaps the children of general authorities should receive such perks perhaps they were better than the rest of us in the pre-existence? I honestly do not know it's possible I suppose. All the G.A's I know of and I am supremely sure that most lds would agree have done in life materially very well for themselves, in different capitalist ventures many being materially millionaires or close to it. Whether they still receive financially what the Brethren refer to as the 'Sty Penn' has never been disclosed and is kept highly confidential from members of the Church.

Does anyone know if BYU is a tithing funded institution and if so is the education of the Children of General Authorities paid for by members tithing?

I can only assume that this policy or mutual understanding that exists between BYU and ecclesiatical leaders granting completely free education to the Children of General Authorities has been a extremely confidential arrangement. Because I had never heard of it and according to one Professor I e-mailed at BYU in the Philosophy Department the Policy has been in existence for over 20yrs however I have never seen heard or read it online from either friendly or opposing voices. I am pretty ignorant sorta person anyhow I suppose, was everyone else aware of this arrangement?

For some poorer members of the Church who may be living in poverty who pay tithing and also contribute to the Perpetual Education Fund to give opportunities for education to those less fortunate than themselves and who would be willing to cut off their own hands as to get further light and knowledge through education I imagine those people may find this arrangement that exists between the Church and BYU rather discriminatory and a little confusing perhaps.

I would be interested in hearing from any posters on this board that have received a completely financially free educational ride at BYU by virtue of them being either friends or family of General Authorities and what their feelings on this matter are?

Personally I don't believe its possible it makes no sense in my mind there has to be more to it surely?

[oats]

Ooo, let us never divulge the benefits received by temple presidents and mission presidents if free tuition for the children of GAs is so disturbing.

[The Nehor]

I don't have an issue with spouses or children of employees of BYU getting discounts or free tuition, this is pretty standard at many other institutions. However, I do have a problem accepting the fact that children of GA's may get into BYU or other church sponsored schools above other candidates. I highly respect the GA's of the church, but parental lineage should not factor into an admission review at any institution. For the millions of members who are converts whose parents have never had any connection to the church this is grossly unfair. Not that children of GA's are born with a silver spoon, but in isolated stakes and far reaching wards and branches, GA's are treated like royalty, and this priviledge for their children only re-affirms that perception.

I believe this to be true in regards to admission. I submitted an application for BYU for the same semester as another Missionary. I had a fairly impressive academic record. He got a late GED. I had some extracurricular background. He had nothing. I was rejected, he got in. His father was a Seventy. Admittedly he was on academic probation from Day One. Now that I've been to Provo a few times I'm glad I didn't get in.

[Daniel Peterson]

I believe this to be true in regards to admission.

I have no particular reason to believe it.

I submitted an application for BYU for the same semester as another Missionary. I had a fairly impressive academic record. He got a late GED. I had some extracurricular background. He had nothing. I was rejected, he got in. His father was a Seventy.

Which may or may not demonstrate anything. Do you know all of the relevant facts about his application? I've never known all of the relevant facts about anybody's application except my own and those of my children.

Actually, come to think of it, I didn't know all of the relevant facts even in those cases. I had not, for example, read the confidential letters of recommendation that accompanied my application or those of my kids.

Admittedly he was on academic probation from Day One.

Which illustrates why it would be foolish to grant unconditional acceptance to any particular class of applicants, and why it is very unlikely that the University does so.

Now that I've been to Provo a few times I'm glad I didn't get in.

Well, this is a horrible place and a terrible school, and we're horribly corrupt.

[Baurak Ale]

edited.

[Baurak Ale]

edited