Chris Smith Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott."The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he hadbeen on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the lastNeighbor that was published before his death that they wouldcome off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God inIsrael. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conferencethat he could not be killed within five years from thattime; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,for that he had received an unconditional promise fromthe Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell atdefiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they nevercould kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of theChurch say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husbandwas there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,-Chris Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott."The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he hadbeen on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the lastNeighbor that was published before his death that they wouldcome off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God inIsrael. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conferencethat he could not be killed within five years from thattime; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,for that he had received an unconditional promise fromthe Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell atdefiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they nevercould kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of theChurch say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husbandwas there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,-ChrisNever heard it. Link to comment
cksalmon Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott."The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he hadbeen on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the lastNeighbor that was published before his death that they wouldcome off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God inIsrael. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conferencethat he could not be killed within five years from thattime; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,for that he had received an unconditional promise fromthe Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell atdefiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they nevercould kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of theChurch say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husbandwas there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,-ChrisNews to me, Chris. I wonder if this statement appears in any of the volumes in Dan Vogel's Early Mormon Documents. I only have volume one at present (and it's not in that one). He is fairly meticulous in detailing the relevant backgrounds of the sources he includes. Maybe a mound in which to dig for this?Best.Chris Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 [...]I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,-ChrisThe God Makers page 220. Link to comment
cksalmon Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The God Makers page 220. Good call. Decker/Hunt cite from Among the Mormons, 152-3.CKS Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Good call. Decker/Hunt cite from Among the Mormons, 152-3.CKSI just checked The Truth About the God Makers (it talks a bit about the quote), and according to Scharffs, the article in The New England Quarterly ("The Death of a Mormon Dictator") is the only source.Perhaps "Uncle" Dale is familiar with this (or maybe Don [i don't know if you <Chris Smith> are still in contact with him]). Link to comment
Chris Smith Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 I just checked The Truth About the God Makers (it talks a bit about the quote), and according to Scharffs, the article in The New England Quarterly ("The Death of a Mormon Dictator") is the only source.Well that's a bummer. Certain aspects of it seem to ring true ("he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days"-- I think his patriarchal blessing promised he'd live till the Second Coming or something, didn't it?), but with no other version of the event to check it against, I guess it's hard to gauge Mr. Scott's reliability.-Chris Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 As usual, FAIR is on top of things. Ed Decker used this letter in The Godmakers, to which FAIR responds as follows: Page 220, lines 12-19 "A few months before his death [Joseph Smith allegedly said] to the effect 'that he could not be killed within five years from that time; that they could not kill him till the Temple [in 'Zion'] would be completed, for that he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at defiance...."'This allegation comes from two who turned against Joseph Smith.As far as I know, there are no other sources that claim Joseph Smith made such a "prophecy," and this is unusual because we have many diaries from this period of Church history.The two who turned against Joseph Smith and are the source for this "prophecy" were Sarah Scott and her husband. She wrote a letter to her parents in the East on July 22, 1844, almost a month following Joseph Smith's martyrdom. The above quote comes from a book (Dale Morgan, Among the Mormons, pp. 152-153) which gets its information from an article, "The Death of a Mormon Dictator," published in The New England Quarterly, Dec. 1936, pp. 583. The title of the article is enough to make one question its objectivity. A single secondary source by those who have become bitter against Mormonism is neither a typical quotation nor reliable evidence that this was a false prediction. Most members of the Church were of course deeply saddened by Joseph's premature death at age 38 Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Well that's a bummer. Certain aspects of it seem to ring true ("he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days"-- I think his patriarchal blessing promised he'd live till the Second Coming or something, didn't it?), but with no other version of the event to check it against, I guess it's hard to gauge Mr. Scott's reliability.-ChrisI'm not familiar with Joseph's patriarchal blessing(?) In fact, for some reason I never even considered that he received one.----Does anyone have a copy or know any sources that talk about it? Link to comment
Duncan Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The Scott's used the word, "prophecy" seemingly until proven otherwise Joseph did not. Their words not his. Link to comment
Chris Smith Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 I'm not familiar with Joseph's patriarchal blessing(?) In fact, for some reason I never even considered that he received one.----Does anyone have a copy or know any sources that talk about it?His dad gave him the blessing in 1834. I'll send you a typescript, but for now here's the excerpt I was thinking of:By the way, a critical edition of the patriarchal blessing book was just recently published.-Chris Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 His dad gave him the blessing in 1834. I'll send you a typescript, but for now here's the excerpt I was thinking of:By the way, a critical edition of the patriarchal blessing book was just recently published.-ChrisI don't see this as implying Joseph will still be alive.I'm not familiar with Joseph's patriarchal blessing(?) In fact, for some reason I never even considered that he received one.----Does anyone have a copy or know any sources that talk about it?Bushman talks about it in RSR, I believe. Or maybe I am thinking of one of his lectures I have on cd. Yes, it is on a lecture. Link to comment
Aquilifer Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Bushman talks about it in RSR, I believe. Or maybe I am thinking of one of his lectures I have on cd. Yes, it is on a lecture.Not to derail, but Bushman has lectures on CD? Sure you're not thinking of Truman Madsen's series? Link to comment
gadianton Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott."The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he hadbeen on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the lastNeighbor that was published before his death that they wouldcome off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God inIsrael. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conferencethat he could not be killed within five years from thattime; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,for that he had received an unconditional promise fromthe Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell atdefiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they nevercould kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of theChurch say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husbandwas there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,-ChrisDuh, he was speaking of the "spiritual death." See how easy it is to weasel out of these things with goofy explanations? Link to comment
Pahoran Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 So since this old bit of 19th century gossip has been thoroughly discredited, it must be about time for IRR to resurrect it as the product of Impartial Rigorous Research, right?Perhaps we should expect to see it sometime after Chris's forthcoming recycling of Charlie Larson's hatchet job.Regards,Pahoran Link to comment
Aquilifer Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Duh, he was speaking of the "spiritual death." See how easy it is to weasel out of these things with goofy explanations? Why don't you address the explanations offered instead of making up your own and calling them goofy??? Link to comment
grego Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 "The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he hadbeen on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the lastNeighbor that was published before his death that they wouldcome off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God inIsrael. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conferencethat he could not be killed within five years from thattime; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,for that he had received an unconditional promise fromthe Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell atdefiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they nevercould kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of theChurch say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husbandwas there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)Who are the "many others" who "testify to the same thing"?This sounds like she wasn't there, but heard it from her husband? I imagine that such a statement--in conference, no less--would surely be written in a few journals. That it's not, is the biggest suspicious part to me. Link to comment
gadianton Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Why don't you address the explanations offered instead of making up your own and calling them goofy??? Sorry, I didn't have time to read the other posts... just replied to the OP. Link to comment
Hammer Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott."The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he hadbeen on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the lastNeighbor that was published before his death that they wouldcome off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God inIsrael. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conferencethat he could not be killed within five years from thattime; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,for that he had received an unconditional promise fromthe Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell atdefiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they nevercould kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of theChurch say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husbandwas there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,-ChrisDarn if that isn't a good one for confusion. But I believe he probably did say those things because I have been given promises I swore by many times and I was left to myself. Why? Because I told it and it wasn't meant to be spoken, it was just to be kept between me and the Lord. I wanted to make proof for others to see how the Lord fulfilled His promises and the Lord said He only worked one on one in these personal matters.Oh well. Unless people have had these experiences, they will think JS was a fraud. But we all are taught we are not to set up our works to be acknowledge by men. The Lord knows how we are and ultimately at the expense of our pride and reputation will continue to work with us individually. Link to comment
Moon Quaker Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Duh, he was speaking of the "spiritual death." See how easy it is to weasel out of these things with goofy explanations? No silly, he was simply "speaking as a man." That was all just his opinion. Link to comment
Chris Smith Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Perhaps we should expect to see it sometime after Chris's forthcoming recycling of Charlie Larson's hatchet job.My dear Pahoran,I don't recall seeing you actually answer any of my arguments on our BoA thread. Perhaps instead of saying ignorant and demeaning things, you'd like to have a real conversation?No, I suppose that would be asking too much.-Chris Link to comment
juliann Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Why don't you address the explanations offered instead of making up your own and calling them goofy??? For the same reason he thinks Jesus and Satan are brothers is a good and thorough rendition of LDS theology that we should be required to adopt and pledge allegiance to. It is quick and dirty and sounds bad. Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Not to derail, but Bushman has lectures on CD? Sure you're not thinking of Truman Madsen's series?It was on a cd I bought at Seagull for 5 bucks. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott."The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he hadbeen on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the lastNeighbor that was published before his death that they wouldcome off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God inIsrael. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conferencethat he could not be killed within five years from thattime; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,for that he had received an unconditional promise fromthe Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell atdefiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they nevercould kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of theChurch say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husbandwas there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,-ChrisThe question is... which Temple? Kirtland was completed. So was Nauvoo. Link to comment
John Williams Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 My dear Pahoran,I don't recall seeing you actually answer any of my arguments on our BoA thread. Perhaps instead of saying ignorant and demeaning things, you'd like to have a real conversation?No, I suppose that would be asking too much.-ChrisWhy bother with arguments? He called it a "hatchet job." What more need be said (speaking of quick and dirty and sounding bad)? Link to comment
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