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Js Prophesied That He Wouldn't Die For At Least 5 Years


Chris Smith

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The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott.

"The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had

been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last

Neighbor that was published before his death that they would

come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in

Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference

that he could not be killed within five years from that

time; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,

for that he had received an unconditional promise from

the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at

defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never

could kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of the

Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband

was there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,

and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)

I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,

-Chris

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The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott.

"The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had

been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last

Neighbor that was published before his death that they would

come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in

Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference

that he could not be killed within five years from that

time; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,

for that he had received an unconditional promise from

the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at

defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never

could kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of the

Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband

was there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,

and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)

I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,

-Chris

Never heard it.

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The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott.

"The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had

been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last

Neighbor that was published before his death that they would

come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in

Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference

that he could not be killed within five years from that

time; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,

for that he had received an unconditional promise from

the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at

defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never

could kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of the

Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband

was there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,

and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)

I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,

-Chris

News to me, Chris. I wonder if this statement appears in any of the volumes in Dan Vogel's Early Mormon Documents. I only have volume one at present (and it's not in that one). He is fairly meticulous in detailing the relevant backgrounds of the sources he includes.

Maybe a mound in which to dig for this?

Best.

Chris

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Good call. Decker/Hunt cite from Among the Mormons, 152-3.

CKS

I just checked The Truth About the God Makers (it talks a bit about the quote), and according to Scharffs, the article in The New England Quarterly ("The Death of a Mormon Dictator") is the only source.

Perhaps "Uncle" Dale is familiar with this (or maybe Don [i don't know if you <Chris Smith> are still in contact with him]).

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I just checked The Truth About the God Makers (it talks a bit about the quote), and according to Scharffs, the article in The New England Quarterly ("The Death of a Mormon Dictator") is the only source.

Well that's a bummer. Certain aspects of it seem to ring true ("he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days"-- I think his patriarchal blessing promised he'd live till the Second Coming or something, didn't it?), but with no other version of the event to check it against, I guess it's hard to gauge Mr. Scott's reliability.

-Chris

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As usual, FAIR is on top of things. Ed Decker used this letter in The Godmakers, to which FAIR responds as follows:

Page 220, lines 12-19

"A few months before his death [Joseph Smith allegedly said] to the effect 'that he could not be killed within five years from that time; that they could not kill him till the Temple [in 'Zion'] would be completed, for that he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at defiance...."'

This allegation comes from two who turned against Joseph Smith.

As far as I know, there are no other sources that claim Joseph Smith made such a "prophecy," and this is unusual because we have many diaries from this period of Church history.

The two who turned against Joseph Smith and are the source for this "prophecy" were Sarah Scott and her husband. She wrote a letter to her parents in the East on July 22, 1844, almost a month following Joseph Smith's martyrdom. The above quote comes from a book (Dale Morgan, Among the Mormons, pp. 152-153) which gets its information from an article, "The Death of a Mormon Dictator," published in The New England Quarterly, Dec. 1936, pp. 583. The title of the article is enough to make one question its objectivity. A single secondary source by those who have become bitter against Mormonism is neither a typical quotation nor reliable evidence that this was a false prediction. Most members of the Church were of course deeply saddened by Joseph's premature death at age 38

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Well that's a bummer. Certain aspects of it seem to ring true ("he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days"-- I think his patriarchal blessing promised he'd live till the Second Coming or something, didn't it?), but with no other version of the event to check it against, I guess it's hard to gauge Mr. Scott's reliability.

-Chris

I'm not familiar with Joseph's patriarchal blessing(?) In fact, for some reason I never even considered that he received one.

----

Does anyone have a copy or know any sources that talk about it?

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I'm not familiar with Joseph's patriarchal blessing(?) In fact, for some reason I never even considered that he received one.

----

Does anyone have a copy or know any sources that talk about it?

His dad gave him the blessing in 1834. I'll send you a typescript, but for now here's the excerpt I was thinking of:

patblessingexcerpt.jpg

By the way, a critical edition of the patriarchal blessing book was just recently published.

-Chris

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His dad gave him the blessing in 1834. I'll send you a typescript, but for now here's the excerpt I was thinking of:

patblessingexcerpt.jpg

By the way, a critical edition of the patriarchal blessing book was just recently published.

-Chris

I don't see this as implying Joseph will still be alive.

I'm not familiar with Joseph's patriarchal blessing(?) In fact, for some reason I never even considered that he received one.

----

Does anyone have a copy or know any sources that talk about it?

Bushman talks about it in RSR, I believe. Or maybe I am thinking of one of his lectures I have on cd. Yes, it is on a lecture.

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Bushman talks about it in RSR, I believe. Or maybe I am thinking of one of his lectures I have on cd. Yes, it is on a lecture.

Not to derail, but Bushman has lectures on CD? :P Sure you're not thinking of Truman Madsen's series?

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The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott.

"The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had

been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last

Neighbor that was published before his death that they would

come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in

Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference

that he could not be killed within five years from that

time; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,

for that he had received an unconditional promise from

the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at

defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never

could kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of the

Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband

was there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,

and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)

I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,

-Chris

Duh, he was speaking of the "spiritual death." See how easy it is to weasel out of these things with goofy explanations? :P

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So since this old bit of 19th century gossip has been thoroughly discredited, it must be about time for IRR to resurrect it as the product of Impartial Rigorous Research, right?

Perhaps we should expect to see it sometime after Chris's forthcoming recycling of Charlie Larson's hatchet job.

Regards,

Pahoran

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Duh, he was speaking of the "spiritual death." See how easy it is to weasel out of these things with goofy explanations? ;)

Why don't you address the explanations offered instead of making up your own and calling them goofy??? :P

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"The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had

been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last

Neighbor that was published before his death that they would

come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in

Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference

that he could not be killed within five years from that

time; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,

for that he had received an unconditional promise from

the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at

defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never

could kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of the

Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband

was there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,

and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)

Who are the "many others" who "testify to the same thing"?

This sounds like she wasn't there, but heard it from her husband?

I imagine that such a statement--in conference, no less--would surely be written in a few journals. That it's not, is the biggest suspicious part to me.

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The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott.

"The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had

been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last

Neighbor that was published before his death that they would

come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in

Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference

that he could not be killed within five years from that

time; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,

for that he had received an unconditional promise from

the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at

defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never

could kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of the

Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband

was there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,

and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)

I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,

-Chris

Darn if that isn't a good one for confusion. But I believe he probably did say those things because I have been given promises I swore by many times and I was left to myself. Why? Because I told it and it wasn't meant to be spoken, it was just to be kept between me and the Lord. I wanted to make proof for others to see how the Lord fulfilled His promises and the Lord said He only worked one on one in these personal matters.

Oh well. Unless people have had these experiences, they will think JS was a fraud. But we all are taught we are not to set up our works to be acknowledge by men. The Lord knows how we are and ultimately at the expense of our pride and reputation will continue to work with us individually. :P

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Duh, he was speaking of the "spiritual death." See how easy it is to weasel out of these things with goofy explanations? :P

No silly, he was simply "speaking as a man." That was all just his opinion. ;)

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Perhaps we should expect to see it sometime after Chris's forthcoming recycling of Charlie Larson's hatchet job.

My dear Pahoran,

I don't recall seeing you actually answer any of my arguments on our BoA thread. Perhaps instead of saying ignorant and demeaning things, you'd like to have a real conversation?

No, I suppose that would be asking too much.

-Chris

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Why don't you address the explanations offered instead of making up your own and calling them goofy??? :P

For the same reason he thinks Jesus and Satan are brothers is a good and thorough rendition of LDS theology that we should be required to adopt and pledge allegiance to. It is quick and dirty and sounds bad. ;)

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The following is from the New England Quarterly's reprint (vol. 9, no. 4) of some letters of a Nauvoo couple named Sarah and Isaac Scott.

"The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had

been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last

Neighbor that was published before his death that they would

come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in

Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference

that he could not be killed within five years from that

time; that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed,

for that he had received an unconditional promise from

the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at

defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never

could kill this Child. But now that he is killed some of the

Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband

was there at the time and says there was no conditions whatever,

and many others testify to the same thing." (p. 597)

I'm wondering if anybody's ever encountered this allegation before and if there are any other sources for it. Thanks,

-Chris

The question is... which Temple? Kirtland was completed. So was Nauvoo.

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My dear Pahoran,

I don't recall seeing you actually answer any of my arguments on our BoA thread. Perhaps instead of saying ignorant and demeaning things, you'd like to have a real conversation?

No, I suppose that would be asking too much.

-Chris

Why bother with arguments? He called it a "hatchet job." What more need be said (speaking of quick and dirty and sounding bad)?

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