BofM Hill Cumorah?

[poulsenll]

The text of the BofM makes reference to the following geographic features marked in bold.

1. The land northward and the land southward are separated by a narrow neck of land

2. The Hill Cumorah is in the land northward.

3. The land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi-Lehi are separated by a narrow strip of wilderness that stretches from the sea east to the sea west.

4. The land of Zarahemla is north of this dividing line. The city of Zarahemla is located near the river Sidon

5. The city of Zarahemla is in the center of the land of Zarahemla

6. The land of Zarahemla is in the land southward.

Here is a view of the Americas from Google Earth. Starting at the Hill Cumorah in New York and moving south we must find in the following order, a narrow neck of land (isthmus) and a narrow strip of wilderness stretching between a sea to the east and a sea to the west. The narrow neck must be south of the hill Cumorah.

The land of Zarahemla must be located south of both the hill Cumorah and the narrow neck of land. It must be located north of the Narrow strip of wilderness and be near a river that has its head in this narrow strip and it must be to the north of said head.

I have marked some of the possible choices. Take your choice or propose another that meets the textual criteria in the Americas. We have been told by revelation that the BofM took place on the American continents.

Please dont ask me to look up the references for you. You all have computers or you would not be on this list. Go to

http://scriptures.lds.org/

and do a search for Zarahemla. Zarahemla is mentioned over 126 times in 126 verses in the BofM. Read them and verify for yourself what the text has to say about the Land of Zarahemla and its location.

Larry P

[charity]

My foray onto the search said 62 times. What happened to the others?

[poulsenll]

My foray onto the search said 62 times. What happened to the others?

I just repeated it. There are 50 citations but most of them have multiple verses. For example

Hel. 1: 15, 17-18, 22-23, 27, 29, 33

15 And they came down again that they might pitch battle against the Nephites. And they were led by a man whose name was aCoriantumr; and he was a descendant of Zarahemla; and he was a bdissenter from among the Nephites; and he was a large and a mighty man.

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17 Therefore he did astir them up to anger, and he did gather together his armies, and he did appoint Coriantumr to be their leader, and did cause that they should march down to the land of Zarahemla to battle against the Nephites.

18 And it came to pass that because of so much contention and so much difficulty in the government, that they had not kept sufficient guards in the land of Zarahemla; for they had supposed that the Lamanites durst not come into the heart of their lands to attack that great city Zarahemla.

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22 And now when Coriantumr saw that he was in possession of the city of Zarahemla, and saw that the Nephites had fled before them, and were slain, and were taken, and were cast into prison, and that he had obtained the possession of the strongest hold in all the land, his heart atook courage insomuch that he was about to go forth against all the land.

23 And now he did not tarry in the land of Zarahemla, but he did march forth with a large army, even towards the city of aBountiful; for it was his determination to go forth and cut his way through with the sword, that he might obtain the north parts of the land.

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27 But behold, the Lamanites were not frightened according to his desire, but they had come into the center of the land, and had taken the capital city which was the city of Zarahemla, and were marching through the most capital parts of the land, slaying the people with a great slaughter, both men, women, and children, taking possession of many cities and of many strongholds.

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29 And thus he did; and he did head them before they came to the land Bountiful, and gave unto them battle, insomuch that they began to retreat back towards the land of Zarahemla.

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33 And it came to pass that Moronihah took possession of the city of Zarahemla again, and caused that the Lamanites who had been taken prisoners should depart out of the land in apeace.

This one has 8 verses but is only counted once.

Larry P

[mledbetter]

What about Baja California? Or whatever you call that sliver of land on the western coast of Mexico.

[Freedom]

I think that the case for the hill being located in central america has been made very strongly. Putting it in new york is simply too far a distance to fit into the text. I cannot not find any justification for it being any more than a few days walk from the southern lands.

[grego]

So should the river Sidon still be the same as it was at that time?

[Zemah]

I always thought that the narrow neck of land separating eastern and western seas was the Isthmus of Panama. Church literature places the original landing of Lehiâ??s family in South America (specifically Peru).

I do not believe that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York has to be the same hill upon which the last battle took place. It could be that one hill signifies the end of an era and the other signifies the beginning of a new era in the restoration of the Gospel.

We know that God took the plates up into heaven after the translation was complete; so likewise, he could have taken them up from Moroni and placed them in New York when the time was right.

Zemah

[poulsenll]

What about Baja California? Or whatever you call that sliver of land on the western coast of Mexico.

Possibly, but it is not quite south though.

[poulsenll]

I always thought that the narrow neck of land separating eastern and western seas was the Isthmus of Panama. Church literature places the original landing of Lehiâ??s family in South America (specifically Peru).

I do not believe that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York has to be the same hill upon which the last battle took place. It could be that one hill signifies the end of an era and the other signifies the beginning of a new era in the restoration of the Gospel.

We know that God took the plates up into heaven after the translation was complete; so likewise, he could have taken them up from Moroni and placed them in New York when the time was right.

Zemah

That would place Zarahemla in South America. I find it difficult locating a "narrow" strip of wilderness without postulating major geological modifications of the South American continent that are not in agreement with the scientific record of that area. For example, seas where structures built by preChrist cultures have been found. The Andes cordillera runs north-south and blocks any reasonable east-west strip of wilderness that would be considered as "narrow". In addition for the major part of the continent it is too wide to propose such a strip that would fit the description of the defensive elements that were built to keep the Lamanites south of the dividing line. Remember, all of the criteria must be met not just the "narrow neck".

Unfortunately, except for a very limited area where the Panama canal is located, the seas are to the north and south; not east and west.

I think your idea that the two Cumorahs represent an end and a beginning with respect to the restoration of the Gospel is a good way to look at it.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

So should the river Sidon still be the same as it was at that time?

Within reason, Yes according to the geological record.

Larry P

[Rob Osborn]

Distance debates have long been the cause for many a debate when studying the geography of the BoM lands. It is true that most of the events of the BoM take place on a relatively small land area because most of the BoM events are centered around the land of Zarahemla. But this is not the rule for all the lands discussed in the BoM. The BoM paints a much larger area though when discussing all of the areas involved.

It is possible that the Nephites and Lamanites had spread out from Peru to New York by the time of their last battles. We think it would be hard to travel such vast areas in short amounts of time but we also tend to forget that when the sttlers came to America largely in the late 1700's that it took no time at all to spread all across the country. This was all done with the same modes of transportation and communications as the ancient Nephites and Lamanites also had. We Americans also fought several wars (Revolutionary, Civil war) that spanned thousands of miles on this continent and killed far less inhabitants than that of the Nephites, let alonr the mighty fearsome wars of the great Jaredite Nation. In early American history people traveled hundreds and thousands of miles as part of ordinary lives in moving and battling in wars, why would it be any different for the BoM peoples?

It speaks in one place of the Narrow neck as being only a day and a half journey for a Nephite (probably 25-40 miles), at this rate, a twenty days journey would be like going from Salt Lake to Las Vegas. This was not considered a great or exceeding distance to the ancient Nephites.-

4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to alarge bodies of water and many rivers.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 3:4)

This to me seems like a distance that would be at least 1000 miles at minumum. This next passage tells me that the distance traveling northward was excceding enough that it was justifiable to build large ships to travel to a new home rather thasn traverse on land-

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an aexceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land bBountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the cnarrow neck which led into the land northward.

6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built aother ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 63:5 - 7)

It may be hard to correctly identify where exactly the lands were, but it is not hard at all to comprehend and realize that the BoM peoples were an exploring group of peoples that traveled thousands of miles in their search for civilization and new home lands for their peoples!

[Zakuska]

Well lets see.... Florida => Cuba => Yucatan peninsula seem to make a land bridge... how much land was SUNK at the coming of Christ?

Id say... find your sunken cities and go from there.

[Stargazer]

I always thought that the narrow neck of land separating eastern and western seas was the Isthmus of Panama. Church literature places the original landing of Lehi's family in South America (specifically Peru).

I do not believe that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York has to be the same hill upon which the last battle took place. It could be that one hill signifies the end of an era and the other signifies the beginning of a new era in the restoration of the Gospel.

We know that God took the plates up into heaven after the translation was complete; so likewise, he could have taken them up from Moroni and placed them in New York when the time was right.

Zemah

The drumlin in NY where the plates were found was not identified as Cumorah in anything Moroni told Joseph Smith.

Peru is not identified by the church as the location of Lehi's colony' landfall. Suggest you read the article in the FAIR wiki. I think David O. McKay once said he thought the landing place might have been somewhere in Chile, but he was clearly not speaking prophetically -- except that the critics would prefer he had been, since it is now seen as clearly improbable.

[grego]

Id say... find your sunken cities and go from there.

Yeah, there were quite a few sunk at Christ's death.

[Russ]

The text of the BofM makes reference to the following geographic features marked in bold.

1. The land northward and the land southward are separated by a narrow neck of land

2. The Hill Cumorah is in the land northward.

3. The land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi-Lehi are separated by a narrow strip of wilderness that stretches from the sea east to the sea west.

4. The land of Zarahemla is north of this dividing line. The city of Zarahemla is located near the river Sidon

5. The city of Zarahemla is in the center of the land of Zarahemla

6. The land of Zarahemla is in the land southward.

Here is a view of the Americas from Google Earth. Starting at the Hill Cumorah in New York and moving south we must find in the following order, a narrow neck of land (isthmus) and a narrow strip of wilderness stretching between a sea to the east and a sea to the west. The narrow neck must be south of the hill Cumorah.

The land of Zarahemla must be located south of both the hill Cumorah and the narrow neck of land. It must be located north of the Narrow strip of wilderness and be near a river that has its head in this narrow strip and it must be to the north of said head.

I have marked some of the possible choices. Take your choice or propose another that meets the textual criteria in the Americas. We have been told by revelation that the BofM took place on the American continents.

Please dont ask me to look up the references for you. You all have computers or you would not be on this list. Go to

http://scriptures.lds.org/

and do a search for Zarahemla. Zarahemla is mentioned over 126 times in 126 verses in the BofM. Read them and verify for yourself what the text has to say about the Land of Zarahemla and its location.

Larry P

Do the city names mentioned in the Book of Mormon sound Central American to you?

The following suggests a strong indication that Smith had in mind the northeastern U.S. / southeastern Canada as the setting for the Book of Mormon. Jim Spencer has posted on his site a map by the late Vernal Holley. (below)

LDS thoughts?

If one of your thoughts happens to be that some of the cities weren't incorporated as cities at the time of Smith's youth, let us understand that cities were sometimes known by their names even though they weren't officially incoroporated as a known city; with such things as post offices, libraries and Wal Marts.

The remainder of this post is copied from Spencer's site:

In Search of Book of Mormon Geography

Below is the modern Map of the area of Smith's Youth

The Book of Mormon is supposed to be a history of real people living in a real place. For the first 150 years of Mormonism's existence, everyone thought it was a story about a people who left the Middle East and came to South or Central America, and who fought wars clear up into New York state where their history was hidden in a hillside, inscribed on gold plates. Joseph Smith, in 1830, translated those plates, he said, by "the gift and power of God," into 1611 English from "Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Or so the story goes.

However, one needs to look no further than New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio to find the setting of the Book of Mormon. Whoever pieced the Book of Mormon together had a land in mind which was very similar to the Northeast United States and Southeast Canada.

My friend, the late Vernal Holley, originally published these maps in his book Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look in the early 1980s. I was fascinated with them then and remain so today. Basically, the two maps compare a "proposed map" constructed by Vernal from the internal descriptions of the Book of Mormon and comments, over the years by Latter-day Saint scholars, with a map showing actual place names on maps of the area around Palmyra, New York, where the Book of Mormon originally was published. Vernal gave me permission to put the whole book on line. I just need the time to do that. In the meantime I hope you enjoy this.

The first map is the "proposed map," constructed from internal comparisons in the Book of Mormon.

Throughout the Book of Mormon we read of such features as "The Narrow Neck of Land" which was a days and a half's journey (roughly 30 miles) separating two great seas. We read much of the Hill Onidah, the Hill Ramah, and the city of the City of Angolaâ??all place names in the land of Joseph Smith's youth. We read, in the Book of Mormon of the Land of Desolation named for a warrior named Teancum who helped General Moroni fight in the Land of Desolation. In Smith's era, an Indian Chief named Tecumseh fought and died near the narrow neck of land helping the British in the War of 1812. Today the Canadian city Techumseh (near the narrow neck of land) is named after him. We see the Book of Mormon city Kishkumen located near an area named, on modern maps, as Kiskiminetas. There are more than two dozen Book of Mormon names that are the same as or nearly the same as modern geographical locations. See below

Book of Mormon place names compared to actual Northeast US/Southeast Canada place names

Canadian locations are marked with an asterisk and appear in the Book of Mormon as lying in "The Land Northward"

ACTUAL PLACE NAMES

*Agathe, Saint

Alma

Angola

Antrim

Antioch

Boaz

*Conner

*Ephrem, Saint

Hellam

Jacobsburg

Jerusalem

Jordan

Kishkiminetas

Lehigh

Mantua

Monroe

Minoa

*Moraviantown

*Morin

Noah Lakes

Oneida

Oneida Castle

Omer

*Rama

*Ripple Lake

Sodom

Shiloh

Land of Midian

*Tecumseh/Tenecum

BOOK OF MORMON PLACE NAMES

Ogath

Alma, Valley of

Angola

Antum

Anti-Anti

Boaz

Comner

Ephraim, Hill

Helam

Jacobugath

Jerusalem

Jordan

Kishkumen

Lehi

Manti

Moroni

Minon

Morianton

Moron

Noah, Land of

Onidah

Onidah, Hill

Omner

Ramah

Ripliancum, Waters of

Sidom

Shilom

Land of Midian

Teancum

[Zakuska]

The problem with this list of names:

Many of them got their names after the BOM was written.

[Russ]

The problem with this list of names:

Many of them got their names after the BOM was written.

Which ones?

Dates, please.

[poulsenll]

Do the city names mentioned in the Book of Mormon sound Central American to you?

The following suggests a strong indication that Smith had in mind the northeastern U.S. / southeastern Canada as the setting for the Book of Mormon. Jim Spencer has posted on his site a map by the late Vernal Holley. (below)

LDS thoughts?

If one of your thoughts happens to be that some of the cities weren't incorporated as cities at the time of Smith's youth, let us understand that cities were sometimes known by their names even though they weren't officially incoroporated as a known city; with such things as post offices, libraries and Wal Marts.

The remainder of this post is copied from Spencer's site:

In Search of Book of Mormon Geography

Below is the modern Map of the area of Smith's Youth

The Book of Mormon is supposed to be a history of real people living in a real place. For the first 150 years of Mormonism's existence, everyone thought it was a story about a people who left the Middle East and came to South or Central America, and who fought wars clear up into New York state where their history was hidden in a hillside, inscribed on gold plates. Joseph Smith, in 1830, translated those plates, he said, by "the gift and power of God," into 1611 English from "Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Or so the story goes.

However, one needs to look no further than New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio to find the setting of the Book of Mormon. Whoever pieced the Book of Mormon together had a land in mind which was very similar to the Northeast United States and Southeast Canada.

My friend, the late Vernal Holley, originally published these maps in his book Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look in the early 1980s. I was fascinated with them then and remain so today. Basically, the two maps compare a "proposed map" constructed by Vernal from the internal descriptions of the Book of Mormon and comments, over the years by Latter-day Saint scholars, with a map showing actual place names on maps of the area around Palmyra, New York, where the Book of Mormon originally was published. Vernal gave me permission to put the whole book on line. I just need the time to do that. In the meantime I hope you enjoy this.

The first map is the "proposed map," constructed from internal comparisons in the Book of Mormon.

Throughout the Book of Mormon we read of such features as "The Narrow Neck of Land" which was a days and a half's journey (roughly 30 miles) separating two great seas. We read much of the Hill Onidah, the Hill Ramah, and the city of the City of Angolaâ??all place names in the land of Joseph Smith's youth. We read, in the Book of Mormon of the Land of Desolation named for a warrior named Teancum who helped General Moroni fight in the Land of Desolation. In Smith's era, an Indian Chief named Tecumseh fought and died near the narrow neck of land helping the British in the War of 1812. Today the Canadian city Techumseh (near the narrow neck of land) is named after him. We see the Book of Mormon city Kishkumen located near an area named, on modern maps, as Kiskiminetas. There are more than two dozen Book of Mormon names that are the same as or nearly the same as modern geographical locations. See below

Book of Mormon place names compared to actual Northeast US/Southeast Canada place names

Canadian locations are marked with an asterisk and appear in the Book of Mormon as lying in "The Land Northward"

Look closely at map 1. Ramah, the same as Cumorah according to the text of the BofM, is correctly located in the land Northward. The Hill Cumorah is located south of the Great Lakes in New York. This would require two Cumorahs just as does the LGT centered in southern Mexico.

According to Google maps, no such location called Ramah is found in Canada. There are several in the old world and a few in the southern US.

If you know of any valid maps showing Ramah in that location feel free to post a link to the info.

Please do some homework before posting cut and paste theories from other sites.

Larry P

[phaedrus ut]

IIRC, I think our own Uncle Dale may have worked with Vern Holley on some of these maps.

Phaedrus

[poulsenll]

IIRC, I think our own Uncle Dale may have worked with Vern Holley on some of these maps.

Phaedrus

Yes he did.

Larry P

[Russ]

Look closely at map 1. Ramah, the same as Cumorah according to the text of the BofM, is correctly located in the land Northward. The Hill Cumorah is located south of the Great Lakes in New York. This would require two Cumorahs just as does the LGT centered in southern Mexico.

According to Google maps, no such location called Ramah is found in Canada. There are several in the old world and a few in the southern US.

If you know of any valid maps showing Ramah in that location feel free to post a link to the info.

Please do some homework before posting cut and paste theories from other sites.

Larry P

I think the map itself proposes that the similarities of name point to the United States as the setting for the Book of Mormon; rather than the map proposing exact location of each city.

I think the similarities are convincing enough that the limited geography theory espoused by some LDS apologists isn't something to be seriously considered because throughout the Book of Mormon we have place-names more congruent with cities located in the U.S. rather than Central America.

I know of more than one Mormon who has admitted that.

[Russ]

"IIRC, I think our own Uncle Dale may have worked with Vern Holley on some of these maps."

Phaedrus

"Yes he did."

Larry P

What was the conclusion?

[Sargon]

I think the similarities are convincing enough that the limited geography theory espoused by some LDS apologists isn't something to be seriously considered because throughout the Book of Mormon we have place-names more congruent with cities located in the U.S. rather than Central America.

I completely disagree Russ. And I must add that I am glad to see you venturing outside of your safe harbors once again.

I once tackled this challenge on another forum, and below is the result of my study. Credit must be given where credit is due though, and L. Norwood deserves some of that. He pointed me in the right direction. Here is a link to his brief summary of the issue.

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=10

After a simple survey of what the BoM itself has to say about the geographical relationships between the cities on Holley's map it is not surprising to realize that the map is far from accurate.

Angola is north of Zarahemla:

Mormon 1:5-6

5 And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father's name was Mormon) I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me.

6 And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla.

Zarahemla is definitely in the land southward.

Mormon 2:3-4

3 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and twenty and seventh year the Lamanites did come upon us with exceedingly great power, insomuch that they did frighten my armies; therefore they would not fight, and they began to retreat towards the north countries.

4 And it came to pass that we did come to the city of Angola, and we did take possession of the city, and make preparations to defend ourselves against the Lamanites. And it came to pass that we did fortify the city with our might; but notwithstanding all our fortifications the Lamanites did come upon us and did drive us out of the city.

Angola is located in the north countries, being north of the south countries, where Zarehemla was located.

Jacobugath is located north of Zarahemla:

3 Nephi 7:12

12 Therefore, Jacob seeing that their enemies were more numerous than they, he being the king of the band, therefore he commanded his people that they should take their flight into the northernmost part of the land, and there build up unto themselves a kingdom, until they were joined by dissenters, (for he flattered them that there would be many dissenters) and they become sufficiently strong to contend with the tribes of the people; and they did so.

Jacob, being the king of this group, led them into the northernmost part of the land.

Mormon 9:9

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

Jacobugath was the name of the city of the king Jacob. It was located in the northernmost part of the land. Definitely north of Zarahemla.

Alma is north of Lehi-Nephi:

A man named Zeniff, a Nephite, left the land of Zarahemla to dwell among the land of the Lamanites. The Lamanites dwelled in the Land of Nephi, located south of Zarehemla. To show this would not be too difficult, but it is attested to more easily by the map in question.

The king of the Lamanites allowed Zeniff and his people to establish themselves in a region called the Land of Lehi-Nephi. (Mosiah 9:1-6)

After a generation the people of Zeniff became wicked under the wicked king Noah, the son of Zeniff. Alma, a priest of King Noah, was converted to the gospel by the prophet Abinadi. Alma began to preach and baptize near the waters of Mormon, hidden from the knowledge of the King. (Mosiah 18:30-34)

After King Noah discovered them there, they fled north into the wilderness, eventually reaching the land of Zarahemla.

After fleeing for eight days they settled and called their settlement Helam. (Mosiah 23:1-5, 19)

They were discovered by the Lamanites, who placed some of the wicked renegade priests, led by Amulon, of the now deceased King Noah as rulers over them. (Mosiah 23:39)

The righteous people of Helam sought to flee from their wicked masters. They fled in the night to a place they named Alma. (Mosiah 24:18-20)

They then departed from the valley of Alma, and after a 12 day journey arrived in Zarahemla. (Mosiah 24:24-25)

This people fled from the land of Lehi-Nephi in the south eventually arriving in Zarahemla in the north. Along the way they stopped at a place they called Alma. Since they were traveling from the south to the north, Alma was north of Lehi-Nephi.

Jerusalem bordered the Land of Lehi-Nephi

As shown above, the waters of Mormon were located in the land of Lehi-Nephi, in the territory of the Lamanites.

Alma 21:1

1 NOW when Ammon and his brethren separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers' nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon.

Jerusalem should be near or in the Land of Lehi-Nephi.

Morianton is in the land southward

The people of the land of Morianton sought to flee into the land northward, and the path they took was via the narrow neck of land.

Alma 50:29,33-34

29 Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.

33 Therefore Moroni sent an army, with their camp, to head the people of Morianton, to stop their flight into the land northward.

34 And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

Therefore Morianton was located in the land southward. This is contrary to the map created by Holley.

Ramah/Cumorah in Canada?

It is also interesting to note that Mr. Holley proposes that the hill Ramah/Cumorah is in Canada, when Cumorah is insisted by the anti-mormon world at large to be located in New York. Another popular anti-mormon challenge is that Cumorah is named after Comoros Island. It seems the critics cannot agree amongst themselves.

How many?

Mr. Holleyâ??s map includes a number of cities, lands, and rivers that do not have corresponding locations on itâ??s opposite map. This might be an attempt to make it appear worse than it really is, or it may be just that he thought we would enjoy a lesson in New England geography.

The place-names that have corresponding locations on both maps include:

Jacobugath/Jacobsburg

Jerusalem/Jerusalem

Valley of Alma/Alma

Shilom/Shiloh

Kishkumen/Kishkiminetas Junction

Lehi-Nephi/Lehigh County

Onidah/Oneida Castle

Angola/Angola

Morianton/Moravianton

Teancum/Tecumsah

Ramah/Rama

Moron/Morin

Ogath/Agathe

Ephraim/Ephraim

Shurr/Sherbrooke

Conclusion

While Holleyâ??s map is interesting, it is far from being an accurate reflection of the Book of Mormon lands. Of the 15 place names proposed to have been taken straight from the New England map, 5 of them are in the wrong place according to the Book of Mormon. That is 1/3, or 33%. Certainly that qualifies as â??manyâ?. And these are not the only problems with Holleyâ??s map, others not so obvious exist. But these suffice to show that Holleyâ??s map is not an honest portrayal of the Book of Mormon lands.

At the least we should remember that correlation is not causality.

I am currently working on a list of all the place-names in the Book of Mormon in order to demonstrate the tiny percentage that Holley's map actually includes. I estimate that it will show that Holley's short list is insignificant when viewed in the big picture.

Sargon

[Russ]

I completely disagree Russ. And I must add that I am glad to see you venturing outside of your safe harbors once again.

I once tackled this challenge on another forum, and below is the result of my study. Credit must be given where credit is due though, and L. Norwood deserves some of that. He pointed me in the right direction. Here is a link to his brief summary of the issue.

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=10

I am currently working on a list of all the place-names in the Book of Mormon in order to demonstrate the tiny percentage that Holley's map actually includes. I estimate that it will show that Holley's short list is insignificant when viewed in the big picture.

Sargon

Sargon, have I asked you before?

Do you see similarities between the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon and that of the cities of Smith's youth? If so, do you (as I) find them convincing enough to conclude a U.S. setting for the Book of Mormon.

Based on your post I assume your answer will be "no." Why is that? I find the similarities quite striking.

Do let me know when you compile your list and do let me know if place-names in the Book of Mormon match up with place-names in Central America.

P.S. Please, let's not lable Holley as dishonest in his maps. It's appartent that his work is honest as he sees it.

[poulsenll]

What was the conclusion?

Russ

UD is in some ways an advocate of the theory that someone else wrote the BofM and sees the Holley theory as evidence of this possibility. Wayne and May, however, have made a more extensive study of the possibility of a New York location for the BofM culture, somewhat more plausible than Holley's. It, however, fails to meet the textual criteria for the relative locations of Cumorah, the narrow strip of wilderness, the seas and the land of Zarahemla as outlined in the OP. The major problem is that the Atlantic and Pacific oceans are too far apart and that the area between the Great lakes, if one assumes these to be the east and west seas, is north of the New York Hill Cumorah. Holley's original map showed this area to be the narrow strip of wilderness.

Unfortunately many of those who propose locations for the BofM culture fail to understand even the basic concepts of geography or they postulate catastrophic modifications unsupported by the geological record..

Larry P