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Nightline, Mormons And Dna


juliann

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http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3951935&page=1

"I think the hypothesis was that if he could get any two people in a room, and through this database show them how they were related and where they came from and how they belonged â?¦ that this would change the way they would feel about each other. That instead of animosity perhaps they would feel a connection and that would lead to a more peaceful environment,"

Even though they couldn't wait five minutes to get out "MORMON!" I found this a good presentation. I find it ironic that as DNA continues to be seen as a weapon to ridicule Mormonism's claims, it is those Mormons behind monumental DNA projects like this.

I do think this could have a positive effect on humanity. I also think it makes the countermoDNApologists look quite small minded in their one note song DNA application as this project looms behind them.

Would you like to trace your geneaology in this manner? Would it assist you in feeling more of a brother or sister to the world?

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... I find it ironic that as DNA continues to be seen as a weapon to ridicule Mormonism's claims,

....

To the extent that educated Mormons respond with the view of Lehi's group and Mulek's group

containing the DNA of many diverse bloodlines, not all of which were "Israelite," and most of

which long ago died out, I think that the perceived problem is effectively bypassed.

True, that is not what our ancestors might have preached, but they lived in another era and

were not much concerned with the idea that some/many preColumbian Americans derived their

ancestry from Siberia.

What's your lineage, as given in your pat. blessing? Mine is "a child of God," and that differs from my

ancestors' designations of "Ephraim" and "Manasseh." I'm happy to see things that way.

Uncle Dale

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In a Book of Mormon sense, I only see the DNA issue having a lasting effect on those people who were taught to think of themselves as something "special" because of their Lehite ancestors. Once the Church stops teaching such things in Central and South America, it will eventually go away.

I think the greatest potential impact will be in regards to the ban on the priesthood; once people start delving into their lily-white ancestry past a few generations, we may find the curse to have been more widespread than originally assumed, with many white-skinned people of African Ancestry ordained and serving long before OD2.

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I think the greatest potential impact will be in regards to the ban on the priesthood; once people start delving into their lily-white ancestry past a few generations, we may find the curse to have been more widespread than originally assumed, with many white-skinned people of African Ancestry ordained and serving long before OD2.

Yet skin color was not the reason for the ban.

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In a Book of Mormon sense, I only see the DNA issue having a lasting effect on those people who were taught to think of themselves as something "special" because of their Lehite ancestors. Once the Church stops teaching such things in Central and South America, it will eventually go away.

And I'm sure you will be telling your ward this. You aren't just hiding behind a secret name and saying these things behind their backs, right? I realize the "oh, they won't be special anymore" is the default position of those who tried to ride the DNAster's bandwagon. Unfortunately, it throws them into the territory of theology and Lamanite is not a matter of DNA. Hang onto this as long as you can, though. In secret, of course.

I think the greatest potential impact will be in regards to the ban on the priesthood; once people start delving into their lily-white ancestry past a few generations, we may find the curse to have been more widespread than originally assumed, with many white-skinned people of African Ancestry ordained and serving long before OD2.

Who is the "we"? Do you hang with people who have a need to claim "lily-white ancestry"? And depend on a "curse" to make it through Sundays with you?

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What's your lineage, as given in your pat. blessing? Mine is "a child of God," and that differs from my

ancestors' designations of "Ephraim" and "Manasseh." I'm happy to see things that way.

Uncle Dale

Ephraim. I have a good friend who was one of the other tribes, don't remember which one now. I think the direct lineage thing has run its course....especially when it is clear we all end up in the same DNA stream anyway. LDS have always had the concept of "adoption" anyway...which is rigidly ignored by the DNAsters....as were the early mentions of other people populating the area before the Nephites.

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Ephraim. I have a good friend who was one of the other tribes, don't remember which one now. I think the direct lineage thing has run its course....especially when it is clear we all end up in the same DNA stream anyway. LDS have always had the concept of "adoption" anyway...which is rigidly ignored by the DNAsters....as were the early mentions of other people populating the area before the Nephites.

Well stated, juliann --- your even-mindedness is one of the aspects of this board that keeps me

coming back, time after time.

Take that as a quoteable testimonial -- should you ever need one, on the spur of the moment.

Yer Unk

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http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3951935&page=1

Would you like to trace your geneaology in this manner? Would it assist you in feeling more of a brother or sister to the world?

I already had this done. (It's cheaper to do it through National Geographic.) I'm from haplogroup U4. People need to keep in mind though that this only traces one itsy bitsy line of our dna. My mom's mom's mom's mom's etc. back 20,000 years. Having my dad's mtdna tested did answer a lingering question for me though. I could only trace his maternal line back to the mid 1700's Quebec and no one knows who that ancestress is. We wondered if she could have been a Native Canadian, but the dna type (t) ruled that out. She was most likely Scottish like her husband.

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Yet skin color was not the reason for the ban.

I didn't say it was the reason. It was an indicator of the determinant (African ancestry). DNA testing may indicate that some people who were ordained to the priesthood before OD2 actually had African ancestry, although it wasn't visibly evident.

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I didn't say it was the reason. It was an indicator of the determinant (African ancestry)

...

But was "African ancestry" even the theoretical "determinant" in this case?

Were north Africans of non-Hamitic ancestry excluded? As I understand things, a person could come

from thirty generations of "Africans" and still theoretically become the head of the Mormon Church.

All of which causes me to wonder even more, how the old-time Mormon discriminators were able to

tell a Berber from a Vandal; a Taureg from a Cathaginian; an Arab from a Copt.

Or, did they even care to try?

UD

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Who is the "we"? Do you hang with people who have a need to claim "lily-white ancestry"? And depend on a "curse" to make it through Sundays with you?

The "we" is Church members. On Sundays, I do hang with people who, until 1978, had a need to claim "lily-white ancestry". Or at least 15/16 lily-white, with priesthood approval.

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But was "African ancestry" even the theoretical "determinant" in this case?

Were north Africans of non-Hamitic ancestry excluded? As I understand things, a person could come

from thirty generations of "Africans" and still theoretically become the head of the Mormon Church.

All of which causes me to wonder even more, how the old-time Mormon discriminators were able to

tell a Berber from a Vandal; a Taureg from a Cathaginian; an Arab from a Copt.

Or, did they even care to try?

UD

Lester Bush discusses the issue in his recounting of the history:

The decision to deny the priesthood to anyone with Negro ancestry ("no matter how remote"), had resolved the theoretical problem of priesthood eligibility, but did not help with the practical problem of identifying the "blood of Cain" in those not already known to have Negro ancestry. The need for a solution to this problem was emphasized by the periodic discovery that a priesthood holder had a black ancestor. One such case came to the attention of the Quorum in 1936. Two Hawaiian members of the priesthood who had performed "some baptisms and other ordinances," were discovered to be "one-eighth negro" and the question arose, what should be done? A remarkably pragmatic decision was reached. The case was entrusted to senior apostle George Albert Smith who was shortly to visit the area, with instructions that if he found that their ordinances involved "a considerable number of people . . . that ratification of their acts be authorized . . .; [but] should [he] discover that there are only one or two affected, and that the matter can be readily taken care of, it may be advisable to have re-baptism performed." A decade later similar cases were reported from New Zealand, and it was "the sentiment of the Brethren" on this occasion that "if it is admitted or otherwise established" that the individuals in question had "Negro blood in his veins," "he should be instructed not to attempt to use the Priesthood in any other ordinations."

The growth of the international Church was clearly bringing new problems. Brazil was particularly difficult. Later that year J. Reuben Clark, First Counselor to George Albert Smith, reported that the Church was entering "into a situation in doing missionary work . . . where it is very difficult if not impossible to tell who has negro blood and who has not. He said that if we are baptizing Brazilians, we are almost certainly baptizing people of negro blood, and that if the Priesthood is conferred upon them, which no doubt it is, we are facing a very serious problem.â? No solution was proposed, though the Quorum once again decided on a thorough review. Elsewhere the problem was not so complicated. South African "whites" had simply been required to "establish the purity of their lineage by tracing their family lines out of Africa through genealogical research" before being ordained to the priesthood. Polynesians, though frequently darker than Negroes, were not generally considered to be of the lineage of Cain.189 Within the United States cases in which there was no acknowledged Negro ancestry were ultimately determined on the basis of appearance. Responding to an inquiry about a physical test for "colored blood," the First Presidency wrote that they assumed "there has been none yet discovered. People in the South have this problem to meet all the time in a practical way, and we assume that as a practical matter the people there would be able to determine whether or not the sister in question has colored blood. Normally the dark skin and kinky hair would indicate but one thing.â?190

Dialogue, Vol.8, No.1, p.41

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Responding to an inquiry about a physical test for "colored blood," the First Presidency wrote

that they assumed "there has been none yet discovered. People in the South have this problem

to meet all the time in a practical way, and we assume that as a practical matter the people there

would be able to determine whether or not the sister in question has colored blood. Normally the

dark skin and kinky hair would indicate but one thing.

....

Remarkable!

They did not even counsel prayer, in making the determination -- nor even that they (The Brethren)

be called upon to exercise apostolic discernment.

"Dark skin and kinky hair would indicate" a curse from the Lord God Almighty!

How could such leaders preach such trash? How could people follow such unwise counsel?

Reorganized LDS never faced such problems -- no matter how much bigotry there might have

been present among the leaders and members. We never made such heaven-daring discriminations,

based upon "dark skin and kinky hair," nor even upon lineages given in patriarchal blessings.

Remarkable!

And sad.

UD

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Remarkable!

They did not even counsel prayer, in making the determination -- nor even that they (The Brethren)

be called upon to exercise apostolic discernment.

"Dark skin and kinky hair would indicate" a curse from the Lord God Almighty!

How could such leaders preach such trash? How could people follow such unwise counsel?

Ummm...it was the culture of the time? And we shouldn't judge them with our modern attitudes and perspective? Yeah...that's it. :P Until Bush's article was published (and even after), I don't think the vast majority of LDS were aware of such statements.

To say it again, I can only imagine what DNA testing could have revealed had it been available before 1978. It would have been a colossal genetic mess.

I already had this done. (It's cheaper to do it through National Geographic.) I'm from haplogroup U4. People need to keep in mind though that this only traces one itsy bitsy line of our dna. My mom's mom's mom's mom's etc. back 20,000 years.

Holy crap. You have pre-Adamite DNA! That is amazing.

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Holy crap. You have pre-Adamite DNA! That is amazing.

....

She is amazing herself.

I'm a fan.

UD

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In a Book of Mormon sense, I only see the DNA issue having a lasting effect on those people who were taught to think of themselves as something "special" because of their Lehite ancestors. Once the Church stops teaching such things in Central and South America, it will eventually go away.

What is "this" and why would the Church stop teaching it?

Exactly what part of the Local Colonisation Hypothesis denies the maxim that Lehi is the common ancestor of all living NA's?

Exactly what result of current or recent DNA research precludes the possibility of Lehi being the common ancestor of all living NA's?

When are you going to stop spouting such obviously counterfactual twaddle?

I think the greatest potential impact will be in regards to the ban on the priesthood; once people start delving into their lily-white ancestry past a few generations, we may find the curse to have been more widespread than originally assumed, with many white-skinned people of African Ancestry ordained and serving long before OD2.

Big whoopee. I know you resent it, Cynic-pro, but the historical Priesthood ban is a dead letter. It is of no practical use to anyone with a vendetta against the Church any more. Get over it and move on.

Regards,

Pahoran

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What is "this" and why would the Church stop teaching it?

Exactly what part of the Local Colonisation Hypothesis denies the maxim that Lehi is the common ancestor of all living NA's?

Exactly what result of current or recent DNA research precludes the possibility of Lehi being the common ancestor of all living NA's?

Then Church leaders should continue to teach it. It's obviously up to them.

When are you going to stop spouting such obviously counterfactual twaddle?

Big whoopee. I know you resent it, Cynic-pro, but the historical Priesthood ban is a dead letter. It is of no practical use to anyone with a vendetta against the Church any more. Get over it and move on.

If I meet anyone with a "vendetta" against the Church, I'll be sure to get the word out. For those of us with an interest in the history of the Church, it still counts as history, and as new facets such as DNA testing present themselves, they certainly can bear discussion. Not sure what you are categorizing as "counterfactual twaddle" though.

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