MADB As Part Of Deconversion Narrative

[juliann]

After our latest "I just learned all this stuff/I have doubts/questions what do I do" poster who stomped off mad, I began to do a little board research on the phenomena of the doubting poster who not just thinks MADB is a rescue operation but demands it.

This is what I found once these people (assuming they are not trolls) come to the board. They claim to be members who want help or answers but they only respond to the most negative posts. They will ignore two pages of supportive posts to hone in on someone they can battle.

These posters then declare that they were treated rudely, attacked, yada yada by MADB not an individual or two but MADB, which they turned to as a last resort only to be rejected. Thus, the church is not what it says it is. This then becomes part of their story when they tell it. It is usually accompanied by statements about MADB (or FAIR/FARMS, fill in the blank) hurting the church despite the fact that what was formerly known as FARM is actually run by BYU.

Is anyone else seeing this as a trend?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I have seen it on this board. I've also begun to lament posters whose abrasive responses give opportunity for offense, including, at times, myself.

[HiJolly]

After our latest "I just learned all this stuff/I have doubts/questions what do I do" poster who stomped off mad, I began to do a little board research on the phenomena of the doubting poster who not just thinks MADB is a rescue operation but demands it.

This is what I found once these people (assuming they are not trolls) come to the board. They claim to be members who want help or answers but they only respond to the most negative posts. They will ignore two pages of supportive posts to hone in on someone they can battle.

These posters then declare that they were treated rudely, attacked, yada yada by MADB not an individual or two but MADB, which they turned to as a last resort only to be rejected. Thus, the church is not what it says it is. This then becomes part of their story when they tell it. It is usually accompanied by statements about MADB (or FAIR/FARMS, fill in the blank) hurting the church despite the fact that what was formerly known as FARM is actually run by BYU.

Is anyone else seeing this as a trend?

I don't suppose you're referring to that 1st time poster 'rufortunate'? I hope not. <sigh>

HiJolly

[jwhitlock]

I've seen it happen before.

It's either a set up, or it's a case where "I've made my decision, and now I need to find something to justify it."

[Severian]

I have seen it on this board. I've also begun to lament posters whose abrasive responses give opportunity for offense, including, at times, myself.

Maybe there is something about participation on these boards that can set some posters on too precarious of edge, so that they reflexively snap at posters with doubts. This can be unsettling to those who come here with questions and are hoping to get soothing answers. I am uncertain as to what a solution may be, although perhaps a disclaimer somewhere on the opening page may help.

[It occurs to me . . .]

I think there is one category that is taboo on this board. That of "doubting member". As I read "rufortunate's" first post, I thought the same thing. How long will this last? Of course it was closed after ten posts.

You're fine as long as you fit into one of the approved categories:

"Rabid" raving, apologist,

Intellectually smug professor type,

openminded member,

Rabid evangelist,

exmormon, but not too much,

(knows when to pull punches)

Feel free to identify other categories. But for some reason, over the years the worst person to be has been that of "doubting, questioning" member.

[Hammer]

Maybe there is something about participation on these boards that can set some posters on too precarious of edge, so that they reflexively snap at posters with doubts. This can be unsettling to those who come here with questions and are hoping to get soothing answers. I am uncertain as to what a solution may be, although perhaps a disclaimer somewhere on the opening page may help.

I think it is because they smell a rat. Seriously I feel there are more troll 'lamentors' and 'questioners' than lds who are really wanting to know.

It comes from the feel of the posts. They dwell on negative, never mentioning that they had any spiritual confirmations-- same mo of exmos and antis. This why I jump on some.

[charity]

I think there is one category that is taboo on this board. That of "doubting member". As I read "rufortunate's" first post, I thought the same thing. How long will this last? Of course it was closed after ten posts.

It was closed because it was a shotgun rant. And ruforutnate was invited to start a new thread on a single topic.

[It occurs to me . . .]

It was closed because it was a shotgun rant. And ruforutnate was invited to start a new thread on a single topic.

Yes, she was also counseled that perhaps a different board would be more conducive to her situation.

. . . so apparently the MODS also agree that this is not the best place for doubting members.

[juliann]

I don't suppose you're referring to that 1st time poster 'rufortunate'? I hope not. <sigh>

HiJolly

I didnt' see that before I posted this. What I had in mind was a poster earlier this week and an elist discussion about a post where exies were high fiving that FAIR/FARMS etc. drove people from the church. It is obvious they don't even believe that because they would be funding them instead of fighting them.

[juliann]

Feel free to identify other categories. But for some reason, over the years the worst person to be has been that of "doubting, questioning" member.

Funny...I doubt anyone could even name them after a week, they don't stick around. The worst ones are the angry exmos that won't go away. But nice try.

Yes, she was also counseled that perhaps a different board would be more conducive to her situation.

. . . so apparently the MODS also agree that this is not the best place for doubting members.

Hello? Anybody home? Since when has this ever been billed as the place to build a testimony or even give testimonies?

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Well, I have always long held that this board is designed to be more of a scholarly board, not a place for soul-searching so much. In the beginning, we were the FAIR Board, or in its fullest, the Foundation for Apologetic and Investigative Research. Nothing in there indicates anything other than a purely academic community. While we are human and love to interact and banter back and forth, the thrust of the matter by name is Apologetic and Investigative Research. Now we are the MADB, or the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board. A bit softer tone with discussion in there now, but still, by name it is inclined towards Academics, not holding one's hand or being a source where Bishops can send all their doubting members. Truthfully, if you are doubting, this is not the best place to be because the topics encompass so much more than what they may be prepared to handle. I say that of doubting LDS, doubting EV's, and Investigators. This is just not the place. I would encourage these people to visit teh actual FAIR and FARMS websites to actually learn. Then, when prepared, come and participate in discussions on these things. It's all backward when someone comes and essentially demands (or in this case, makes) fire before gathering the wood.

Just my two cents.

Matt

[charity]

Yes, she was also counseled that perhaps a different board would be more conducive to her situation.

. . . so apparently the MODS also agree that this is not the best place for doubting members.

I think you have doubting members confused with no-longer doubting exiting mo's.

[Maidservant]

You're fine as long as you fit into one of the approved categories:

"Rabid" raving, apologist,

Intellectually smug professor type,

openminded member,

Rabid evangelist,

exmormon, but not too much,

(knows when to pull punches)

Feel free to identify other categories.

Me.

[jadams_4242]

After our latest "I just learned all this stuff/I have doubts/questions what do I do" poster who stomped off mad, I began to do a little board research on the phenomena of the doubting poster who not just thinks MADB is a rescue operation but demands it.

This is what I found once these people (assuming they are not trolls) come to the board. They claim to be members who want help or answers but they only respond to the most negative posts. They will ignore two pages of supportive posts to hone in on someone they can battle.

These posters then declare that they were treated rudely, attacked, yada yada by MADB not an individual or two but MADB, which they turned to as a last resort only to be rejected. Thus, the church is not what it says it is. This then becomes part of their story when they tell it. It is usually accompanied by statements about MADB (or FAIR/FARMS, fill in the blank) hurting the church despite the fact that what was formerly known as FARM is actually run by BYU.

Is anyone else seeing this as a trend?

So where have you been?

[Deborah]

I think there is one category that is taboo on this board. That of "doubting member".

A doubting member should find better sources of information than discussion boards. Furthermore most of these "doubting members" leave little clues of ignorance which cause some of us to question that they were ever members to begin with. And lastly doubting members don't start posts with seemingly innocent questions and then when someone tries to sincerely answer they throw back at them how wrong and deceived they are and start to preach to them the truth according to the cut and paste tactics of true antis.

[Severian]

A doubting member should find better sources of information than discussion boards.

Well you really can't talk to a group of people about these questions at Church unless you quickly want to be shown the door, so what better place is there? If you expressed these same doubts to a Bishop, you may get answers or you may get the initiation of a Court of Love - depending upon the Bishop in question. This seems too extreme a chance to take for those seeking support on difficult questions. That is why I think such discussion boards hold great potential in assisting members during a crisis of faith.

While this particular board has more than its share of bright and knowledgeable participants, it also has some whose defending skills place them on the high side of irascible. My worry is that those who are fragile in their faith can and possibly would be further injured by lose who may launch an attack. The board also has those critics who would be happy to lead wavering members out of the fold.

[Calm]

I think there is one category that is taboo on this board. That of "doubting member". As I read "rufortunate's" first post, I thought the same thing. How long will this last? Of course it was closed after ten posts.

A truly doubting member may not have all that hard of a time from what I've seen. Depends a great deal from what I've seen on their overall tone and attitude. Generally it seems to me that those who stick to the topic and don't add a lot of personal negative commentary do rather well.

Also those who seem to have a lot of fear about consequences tend to have more emotional posts and they often don't handle the board experience too well.

And posters of any type who bring personal baggage to the board and try to deal with it in the debate/discussion forum (as opposed to Social Hall)....well, taking online discussions personally is not a wise idea no matter the venue. In most cases you are dealing with total strangers who have no real concept about the 'overall' you and thus are likely to make major mistakes in understanding.

OTOH....I'll add another category of "whining doubter'--the one who has doubts but spends more of his or her time ranting about them then exploring them. Generally this type of behaviour isn't going to accomplish much whether it's on a message board or offline. I consider these types pretty much wasting their own and others' time.

[selek]

If you expressed these same doubts to a Bishop, you may get answers or you may get the initiation of a Court of Love - depending upon the Bishop in question. This seems too extreme a chance to take for those seeking support on difficult questions.

Severian, as usual, you're keeping the waste-water treatment plants of your home city brimming to capacity with this kind of nonsense.

We could export your crap and fertilize entire deserts (if we could find container ships to haul it).

I challenge you to show me a single member of the Church who was given a "court of love" for asking earnest, sincere questions- as opposed to copping a rotten attitude or attempting to sow doubts among other members. There is a difference- even if you are too jaundiced to see it.

[grego]

I think there is one category that is taboo on this board. That of "doubting member".

That's right--no doubting members allowed!! We've never had them, we never will, we don't allow them.

[why me]

Doubting members should go over to the ldsforums discussion or go to the fellowship section of the board. Doubting members should not post their doubts on the LDS Dialogue and Discussion threads. That would be suicidal.

Perhaps doubting members can immediately take their issues to the above areas after being instructed by the moderators. A doubting member does not need an active debate but more caring posts.

edited for grammar mistake.

[Momus]

Doubting members should go over to the ldsforums discussion or go to the fellowship section of the board. Doubting members should not post their doubts on the LDS Dialogue and Discussion threads. That would be suicidal.

Perhaps doubting members can immediately take their issues to the above areas after being instructed by the moderators. A doubting members does not need an active debate but more caring posts.

I like this and will add that not just the mods instruct them but every member of the board instruct them that they can get more help at http://www.ldsforums.com if they are sincere in working things out and getting a more complete picture of things.

Momus

[why me]

I like this and will add that not just the mods instruct them but every member of the board instruct them that they can get more help at http://www.ldsforums.com if they are sincere in working things out and getting a more complete picture of things.

Momus

In other words when a doubting poster comes on, his or her post should be moved to the ldsforums or fellowship thread. And the faithful members of the board can go there and address the doubts without debate but with good reasoning. However, the faithful must go there and discuss. If that poster's thread is moved to 'no man's land', ie, left unanswered...well..that would not be good. Also, if that poster does not respond when responded to when his or her thread is transfered, we can assume that it was a troll.

[Deborah]

Well you really can't talk to a group of people about these questions at Church unless you quickly want to be shown the door, so what better place is there?

I don't know what church you've been to but it isn't the one I've gone to in over 40 years all across the country. Seminary and Institute teachers have been answering questions for many years. I certainly would encourage them to go to the scholarly sources which aren't necessarily members of the ward but some of the excellent books or CD's by LDS scholars who have studied in depth and still retain their faith. (Imagine that!).

[juliann]

In other words when a doubting poster comes on, his or her post should be moved to the ldsforums or fellowship thread. And the faithful members of the board can go there and address the doubts without debate but with good reasoning. However, the faithful must go there and discuss. If that poster's thread is moved to 'no man's land', ie, left unanswered...well..that would not be good. Also, if that poster does not respond when responded to when his or her thread is transfered, we can assume that it was a troll.

Moving it wholesale would be an even better idea...and it is an excellent way of weeding out trolls...although that will ruin a lot of fun for the countermos who like to shoot bullets at our feet and demand we dance whenever one of their buddies runs out from under a bridge.

JAdams: So where have you been?

I left home without a computer for most of August and just lost interest. I don't want to lose my position of honor in the deep thoughts of the antis, however. I get a kick out of some of them...my name was always their comforting little blankie that they dragged along with them.