Helen Mar Kimball

[why me]

Her voice is strong and she speaks to apostates, ex-mormons and postmormons today:

LIFE INCIDENTS

By Helen Mar Kimball Whitney

The scenes which are familiar to the Latter-day Saints of an earlier day, are but little known to those who have since been gathered from the different nations, nor to those who have grown up in the peaceful valleys of the Rocky Mountains. Until within a few years, the world knew nothing of our true history. Falsehoods were manufactured and sent out to serve the purposes of our enemies, and apostates have been their willing tools. The bitter prejudices felt by the outside world makes it almost an impossibility for them to believe or become acquainted with our faith and principles; but the history of this people is always interesting to the Latter-day Saints, and incidents of our travels and experience are calculated to benefit the young and rising generation. The spirit of unbelief which has crept into our midst is lamentable, and a stupor seems to have come over a portion of this people, who I sometimes fear, will need the judgments of God to awaken them from its influence, and we know that they are sure to come upon the slothful and disobedient, if they do not repent.

Having continued longer than I anticipated I shall now close "Life Incidents," but not before expressing the gratitude I feel for the privilege of belonging to the unpopular sect called "Mormons." I never saw the time that I felt more joyful and more willing to bear the stigmas which are heaped upon us than I am today. Jesus and his apostles and saints were also hated, and they suffered a great deal more than the Latter-day Saints, and were finally destroyed from off the earth, but we have no fears of a similar fate, for we know that God has set his hand for the second time and that He will live to fulfil his purposes, and though hundreds may apostatize and join our enemies, they will accomplish nothing but their own ruin for apostates are looked down upon by the Gentiles and despised as traitors always are. The wicked only use them as tools to overthrow the work of the Almighty. It is only those who are weak in the faith that fear and tremble. "The wicked flee when no man pursueth," and they judge the Latter-day Saints by themselves. The bitterness that is manifested by the world towards this people is the greatest proof to me that this is the true gospel of Jesus Christ. If my homely description of scenes and incidents among the Saints prove beneficial to others, I will feel amply rewarded and can say as the poet, "If I one soul improve I have not lived in vain."

It seems that Helen has some strong words for apostates. I have seen critics bring up her polygamous marriage many times as a mark against JS. However, these same critics and apostates forget the words of sister Helen as the above.

Helen is certainly speaking to us today.

[Scott Lloyd]

It seems that Helen has some strong words for apostates. I have seen critics bring up her polygamous marriage many times as a mark against JS. However, these same critics and apostates forget the words of sister Helen as the above.

Helen is certainly speaking to us today.

It does appear she would have little use for the proverbial "defenders of dead Mormon women" who sometimes hold forth on boards such as this.

[why me]

It does appear she would have little use for the proverbial "defenders of dead Mormon women" who sometimes hold forth on boards such as this.

Correct! And that is why she needs to be heard. In fact, I think that her words should be forever on the MAAD board at the top. She speaks to all members and apostates. She defended the faith and told it like it is. She speaks for all women in the lds church at that time. And most importantly, she shows that nothing has changed. The lds church always had critics and apostates and usually over the same reasons that we have today. But no critic should use her as an example of a 'victim'.

In fact, her words are for all those who would use her name to leave the church.

[Severian]

Helen should be supportive, after all she and her family and all the Kimball descendants were promised carte blanc Celestial admission, were they not?

[Jaybear]

I think this quote sums it up nicely.

Romney: "I have a great-great grandfather. They were trying to build a generation out there in the desert and so he took additional wives as he was told to do, and I must admit I can't imagine anything more awful than polygamy."

[Scott Lloyd]

Correct! And that is why she needs to be heard. In fact, I think that her words should be forever on the MAAD board at the top. She speaks to all members and apostates. She defended the faith and told it like it is. She speaks for all women in the lds church at that time. And most importantly, she shows that nothing has changed. The lds church always had critics and apostates and usually over the same reasons that we have today. But no critic should use her as an example of a 'victim'.

In fact, her words are for all those who would use her name to leave the church.

I like what you have said about the folly of using a single written document or statement to sum up a person's entire life.

Recently a man who is somewhat prominent left the Church. In a written statement, he said he identifies with Thomas B. Marsh, a president of the Quorum of the Twelve who apostatized during the Missouri period of Church history. The writer feels Marsh has been maligned in the Church as accounts have been told of Marsh's apostasy. The man fears the same thing may happen to him.

What he ignores, or perhaps does not know, is that Marsh returned to the Church and was baptized after abjectly acknowledging before the body of the Church his folly and and wrongdoing in speaking against the leadership of the Church. Marsh said in fact that if any feel to apostatize, they should "prepare their backs for a good whipping," because that is what happened to him in the misery and adversity he experienced in the days following his apostasy.

I would hope, in summing up Marsh's life, one would not focus on his actions and statements at the time of his apostasy, leaving out the rest of the story, that being Marsh's confession of error and return to the fold.

I think this quote sums it up nicely.

Was Mitt Romney renouncing the practice and saying it was wrong for his ancestor to engage in it, or is this merely your antagonistic spin?

[why me]

I think this quote sums it up nicely.

Is Helen speaking to you in her above comments in my original post? How Romney feels about polygamy from the 21st century has no bearing on it. Polygamy was not easy. It was a sacrifice for many. But many of these women were like Helen, strong in the faith....and not very supportive of 19th century apostates.

[why me]

I like what you have said about the folly of using a single written document or statement to sum up a person's entire life.

Recently a man who is somewhat prominent left the Church. In a written statement, he said he identifies with Thomas B. Marsh, a president of the Quorum of the Twelve who apostatized during the Missouri period of Church history. The writer feels Marsh has been maligned in the Church as accounts have been told of Marsh's apostasy. The man fears the same thing may happen to him.

What he ignores, or perhaps does not know, is that Marsh returned to the Church and was baptized after abjectly acknowledging before the body of the Church his folly and and wrongdoing in speaking against the leadership of the Church. Marsh said in fact that if any feel to apostatize, they should "prepare their backs for a good whipping," because that is what happened to him in the misery and adversity he experienced in the days following his apostasy.

I would hope, in summing up Marsh's life, one would not focus on his actions and statements at the time of his apostasy, leaving out the rest of the story, that being Marsh's confession of error and return to the fold.

I have found that when members contemplate leaving the lds church they seem to pick and choose episodes in history. Usually, they post a quote or quotation from someone in the past. And like this individual overlook the bigger picture. A person's life is not a quotation. Rather it is a story made up of actions and words that are often lost in the wind.

[Scott Lloyd]

Is Helen speaking to you in her above comments in my original post? How Romney feels about polygamy from the 21st century has no bearing on it. Polygamy was not easy. It was a sacrifice for many. But many of these women were like Helen, strong in the faith....and not very supportive of 19th century apostates.

The thing to remember about Romney is that he is trying to woo the conservative Evangelical wing of the Republican Party and, hence, is apt to say anything he reasonably can short of wholesale denial of Mormonism to bring them along. One should thus avoid reading too much into sound bites.

[charity]

What is so different about what Romney said and Brigham Young wishing he was the corpse in the casket that was passing by as he was being told about plural marraige?

[why me]

My Helen Mar Kimball quotations can be found on this website:

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/HWhitney.html

I dedicate her words to Juliann for bringing out the voice of dead mormon women who can certainly defend themselves.

[Scott Lloyd]

What is so different about what Romney said and Brigham Young wishing he was the corpse in the casket that was passing by as he was being told about plural marraige?

Not a whole lot -- except that President Young was unambiguous in his conviction that the practice of plural marriage in this dispensation was God-decreed. Romney is, perhaps, less so.

[Jaybear]

Is Helen speaking to you in her above comments in my original post? How Romney feels about polygamy from the 21st century has no bearing on it. Polygamy was not easy. It was a sacrifice for many. But many of these women were like Helen, strong in the faith....and not very supportive of 19th century apostates.

The point is, no matter whether you get quotes from Helen, or from any of the thousands of women still living the practice, you are not to convince anybody that polygamy is not inherently repugnant.

This is why only apologists defend the practice. The powers that be in the LDS Church like Romney know that there is no good way to spin polygamy to the general public.

[Scott Lloyd]

The point is, no matter whether you get quotes from Helen, or from any of the thousands of women still living the practice, you are not to convince anybody that polygamy is not inherently repugnant.

This is why only apologists defend the practice. The powers that be in the LDS Church like Romney know that there is no good way to spin polygamy to the general public.

Marital infidelity is inherently repugnant. Yet much of the "general public" -- including some of those who condemn polygamy -- indulges in it.

It was so in Helen's day; it is so today.

[The Nehor]

The Antis would probably sound like the demons in "The Great Divorce" to her.

Throw off your shackles of happiness! Taste realism not joy! You're persecuted and repressed in that paradise! Give it up!

It strikes me as odd how many confessed miserable atheists will try to convert me. If you're the shining example, I'll pass.

[Scott Lloyd]

The point is, no matter whether you get quotes from Helen, or from any of the thousands of women still living the practice, you are not to convince anybody that polygamy is not inherently repugnant.

This is why only apologists defend the practice. The powers that be in the LDS Church like Romney know that there is no good way to spin polygamy to the general public.

I see plural marriage as a temporary but necessary hardship to establish a membership core that would ensure the survival of the Church in the 19th century and set the stage for its prosperity in the 20th and 21st centuries.

There is not anything I find particularly appealing about a handcart trek, for example. But in retrospect, I am grateful that our forebears engaged in handcart treks.

It is thus with plural marriage.

To me, handcart immigration and divinely instuted plural marriage are equally noble pursuits as instruments in bringing about God's purposes.

[grego]

inherently repugnant.

Wow. That's brilliant there.

[juliann]

The point is, no matter whether you get quotes from Helen, or from any of the thousands of women still living the practice, you are not to convince anybody that polygamy is not inherently repugnant.

Ohhhh, nice spin. Throw Helen in with the women currently living "the practice". Don't acknowledge her words or her existence. She is just another dead and dumb Mormon woman not worthy of your notice when you can throw in a few fundamentalists instead to poison the well.

This is why only apologists defend the practice. The powers that be in the LDS Church like Romney know that there is no good way to spin polygamy to the general public.

You don't seem to be able to discriminate between defending and explaining any better than you can discriminate between 19th century marriage and the funadmentalists today. But hey...we all know women are all alike anyway.

[juliann]

Helen should be supportive, after all she and her family and all the Kimball descendants were promised carte blanc Celestial admission, were they not?

So you think Helen is not dumb just manipulative and dishonest? Ah, the smell of mysogyny in the morning air. And here I thought I was promised the CK, too. But I'm just a woman...what do I know.

[Jaybear]

Don't acknowledge her words or her existence. She is just another dead and dumb Mormon woman not worthy of your notice .....

Well then, if this make me a bad person, tell me when was the last time one of your GA's spoke or wrote something about Helen.

You don't seem to be able to discriminate between defending and explaining any better than you can discriminate between 19th century marriage and the funadmentalists today. But hey...we all know women are all alike anyway.

Enlighten me. BY had oodles and oodles of wives. How were his marriage with his wives materially different that Warren Jeffs marriages. Heck, the women even dress the same.

[katherine the great]

I think this quote sums it up nicely. QUOTE

Romney: "I have a great-great grandfather. They were trying to build a generation out there in the desert and so he took additional wives as he was told to do, and I must admit I can't imagine anything more awful than polygamy."

He can't imagine ANYTHING more awful than polygamy? This guy has no imagination whatsoever. I'm no fan of "the principal", but I can think of lots and lots of things more awful.

[juliann]

Enlighten me. BY had oodles and oodles of wives. How were his marriage with his wives materially different that Warren Jeffs marriages. Heck, the women even dress the same.

Yes, a woman is what she wears. Deep thoughts. Why am I not surprised.

Meanwhile, tell us about the divorce laws BY instituted...before the Federal government stepped in to make Utah women equal to the rest of the oppressed women of the time.

[juliann]

He can't imagine ANYTHING more awful than polygamy? This guy has no imagination whatsoever.

Perhaps losing the presidency will change his mind?

[juliann]

At that time spiritual wife was the title by which every

woman who entered into this order was called, for it was taught and

practiced as a spiritual order and not a temporal one, though it was

always spoken of sneeringly by those who did not believe in it; but the

day will surely come when those who have mocked and derided this principle

and the servants and handmaidens of God who were brave enough to take upon

them the cross and bear the stigmas which have been heaped upon them

without measure will be among those whom the Savior meant when saying,

"Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like unto

whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within

full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly

appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and

iniquity."

SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH

September 20, 1882.

PLURAL MARRIAGE-TAUGHT BY THE PROPHET JOSEPH.

BY HELEN MAR WHITNEY.

[Confidential Informant]

Juliann,

How dare you allow those women to speak for themselves? Don't you know that the Defenders of Dead Mormon Women only like to defend them because Dead Mormon Women are their ideal type of woman: completely silent.

the DDMW can thus fill their mouths with anything words they wish they'd spoken, and when confronted with evidence to the contray thay can condescendingly pat them on the head and shush them because obivioulsy the DDMW know how things really were.

C.I.