Can A Mainstream Christian Make It To The Celestial Kingdom

[rhinomelon]

Okay, take two. I already deleted my earlier attempt at a poll (one of the fringe benefits of the spambuster job).

I hope this question is self-explanatory. It's kind of using Drew's idea, just for the other side of the equation. LDS only, please (sorry, flameburns). Can I, as a Protestant, or SteubieU as a Catholic, make it to the Celestial Kingdom without rejecting those beliefs that the LDS church believes are corrupt and/or apostate? In other words, do I have to become LDS (in this life or the next) in order to live in the only heaven worth having?

Take care, everyone

[urroner]

Can a mainstreamer, like Melonboy, make it to the CK, hell yes!!! I'll just have to convince St. Peter that Rhinomeister is there to shine my shoes and just generally be a toad licker and my lackey.

Rhino, I am your master

Oh, does this rejection come in this life or does it occur after death?

[Drewm777]

I voted no, rhino. I believe you can make it, but you will have to accept LDS teachings and change some of your views and practices. No offense You'll also have to be baptized.

[groove]

This is a recurring theme, but it comes down to this orthodoxy versus orthopraxy thing again. In the LDS paradigm, it is less about precision of belief than it is about rightness of practice. A better question would be whether LDS believe other Christians can make it to the Celestial Kingdom without entering into the covenants specified by the LDS Church -- and the degree to which mainstream Christians feel they could remain "mainstream" and still enter into those covenants. I can certainly imagine plenty of scenarios where people with heterodox LDS beliefs make it to the Celestial Kingdom. "That one guy" we all know who gets up in testimony meeting and starts talking about "Kolob" or radical food storage survivalism, or whatever else, comes to mind. But without those covenants, either in this life or the next, they have not passed through the gates the Lord has specified.

[thesometimesaint]

rhinomelon:

I had to vote other. As the core concept of the Church is that Jesus is the Christ. That He was crucified on the cross, and was buried, and rose from that graves in three days. That He Lives.

Would a Christian deny the core principles and still make it into the Celestial Kingdom?

[T-Shirt]

I don't really like the way the poll is worded, but I voted no. All members of the Church of Jesus Christ, who remain faithful, will be in the Celestial Kingdom, not just the Latter-day Saint variety. Becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ requires baptism by the proper authority (entering the gate) and then remaining true to his baptismal covenants (staying on the path).

T-Shirt

[captain-jack]

I believe they can. So long as all truth is excepted when offered in the Spirit Paradise or Prison.

[BCSpace]

LDS doctrine and scripture is that they cannot make it to the Celestial ot the Terrestial Kingdom without becomming LDS in this life or the next. Since becomming LDS means embracing LDS doctrine, those heretical doctrines (trinity, creation ex nihilo, the solas, OSAS, etc.etc.) are rejected by definition.

[Paul Ray]

I voted No, but now that I've thought about it some more I'm thinking: Maybe

Please adjust the results accordingly.

And btw, it is true that a person can't be saved in the Celestial kingdom while rejecting what God says, about anything, but to reject some teachings from a person who claims those teachings came from God isn't necessarily the same thing as rejecting some teachings from God.

A person first needs to know teachings are true teachings from God before they can reject them as God's teachings.

... and until then they're just teachings from someone who is claiming that they did come from God, either personally or through one of God's prophets.

Edit: Oh, and one more point. It is the responsibility of each person to ask God about all things, so if someone teaches a true teaching from God and a person rejects it outright, that person is responsible for rejecting that teaching without asking God about it.

[jwhitlock]

Can I, as a Protestant, or SteubieU as a Catholic, make it to the Celestial Kingdom without rejecting those beliefs that the LDS church believes are corrupt and/or apostate? In other words, do I have to become LDS (in this life or the next) in order to live in the only heaven worth having?

I don't think the highlighted wording is an accurate qualifier.

[Joseph Antley]

You can't get into the Celestial Kingdom of God without entering into the covenants with God. Simple as that.

[Sargon]

I haven't read the appropriate section is a while, but my understanding is they CAN enter the celestial kingdom, but CANNOT enter the highest degree of said kingdom.

However, I am willing to be corrected.

Sargon

[Paul Ray]

You can't get into the Celestial Kingdom of God without entering into the covenants with God. Simple as that.

Yes, and you can't enter into any covenant with God without knowing about the covenant(s).

... hence the need for teaching, and teachers.

[Dan]

How about we rephrase this question to:

Can a person who does not live according to the laws of the Celestial Kingdom, enter the Celestial Kingdom?

[Lightbearer]

Sorry rhino, the question as stated forced me to vote no. Nobody (including some Mormons) will go to the Celestial Kingdom unless we abandon our false principles. In addition we must receive the ordinances of salvation (baptism) and live up to that covenant. The very definition of the Celestial glory is such that it must be the case. We must be valiant in our testimonies and must keep our covenant which we make at baptism:

(D&C 76:50-70) "And again we bear recordâ??for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the justâ??They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has givenâ?? That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all thingsâ??They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of Godâ??Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christâ??s, and Christ is Godâ??s. And they shall overcome all things. Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people. These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection. These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just. These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all. These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn. These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all. These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical."

Of course we do not condem you to hell-fire either, that is why Jesus said that in His Father's house was many mansions. This is a great distinction I believe, for all are not willing to live up to the covenants that the Lord has ordained for us to walk in. We must abide the law of whatever kingdom we are to be in:

(D&C 88:21-24,29-41) "And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory...Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same. That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

[Zoroaster]

LDS doctrine and scripture is that they cannot make it to the Celestial ot the Terrestial Kingdom without becomming LDS in this life or the next.

I don't think that's LDS doctrine at all. Especially the idea that they can't get into the Terrestrial kingdom, where'd you get that? Even so, where in LDS doctrine does it say that someone has to be LDS to make it even into the celestial kingdom? Only that they beleive in God, have faith in Christ's atonement, receive the ordinances etc. They have to be baptized by one with authority yes, but baptism is for the remission of sins and to serve as a key to salvation, the fact that, in this life, it also makes you a member of the LDS church is more practice than doctrine. In the spirit world the COJCOLDS does not exist. Its just the Church of Jesus Christ.

I put Yes, even though its kind of silly to say "without rejecting those beliefs that the LDS church believes are corrupt and/or apostate". Since we're all going to know the truth in the next life, for us to say that someone won't change their beliefs in the next life is to imply that those beliefs are correct, and obviously I don't believe traditional Christian doctrines are correct.

But I still put Yes because while Mainstream Christians may have to change their beliefs, I'll have to change mine as well. Rhino's already heard this a bunch from me but I'm pretty sure that all of us have misconceptions about God that will be resolved in the next life. There's just not enough time in this world to understand everything about the gospel, and that combined with the willful ignorance that all of us (or at least I) often demonstrate means that we're all going to have a lot to learn in the next life. I don't think it will be any worse for traditional Christians that Mormons.

[Tsuzuki]

This is a recurring theme, but it comes down to this orthodoxy versus orthopraxy thing again. In the LDS paradigm, it is less about precision of belief than it is about rightness of practice. A better question would be whether LDS believe other Christians can make it to the Celestial Kingdom without entering into the covenants specified by the LDS Church -- and the degree to which mainstream Christians feel they could remain "mainstream" and still enter into those covenants. I can certainly imagine plenty of scenarios where people with heterodox LDS beliefs make it to the Celestial Kingdom. "That one guy" we all know who gets up in testimony meeting and starts talking about "Kolob" or radical food storage survivalism, or whatever else, comes to mind. But without those covenants, either in this life or the next, they have not passed through the gates the Lord has specified.

I don't think that's LDS doctrine at all. Especially the idea that they can't get into the Terrestrial kingdom, where'd you get that? Even so, where in LDS doctrine does it say that someone has to be LDS to make it even into the celestial kingdom? Only that they beleive in God, have faith in Christ's atonement, receive the ordinances etc. They have to be baptized by one with authority yes, but baptism is for the remission of sins and to serve as a key to salvation, the fact that, in this life, it also makes you a member of the LDS church is more practice than doctrine. In the spirit world the COJCOLDS does not exist. Its just the Church of Jesus Christ.

I put Yes, even though its kind of silly to say "without rejecting those beliefs that the LDS church believes are corrupt and/or apostate". Since we're all going to know the truth in the next life, for us to say that someone won't change their beliefs in the next life is to imply that those beliefs are correct, and obviously I don't believe traditional Christian doctrines are correct.

But I still put Yes because while Mainstream Christians may have to change their beliefs, I'll have to change mine as well. Rhino's already heard this a bunch from me but I'm pretty sure that all of us have misconceptions about God that will be resolved in the next life. There's just not enough time in this world to understand everything about the gospel, and that combined with the willful ignorance that all of us (or at least I) often demonstrate means that we're all going to have a lot to learn in the next life. I don't think it will be any worse for traditional Christians that Mormons.

These two posts hit the nail ion the head. As for the poll question, we share the central doctrines. Why would we ask anyone to stop loving God or their neighbor?

[Cold Steel]

First, ladies and gentlemen, it's not a matter of people becoming "LDS" in the next world. LDS is only a distinction which pertains to this dispensation. We are no different from the early Christians; we have the same keys of authority, the same priesthoods and, of course, the same God. EVs today are not that different from those who were of Paul, or of Apollos, or of Cephas, and so forth. They are sectarians, which do not have the fulness of the gospel. As I understand it, those who would not accept the gospel now would not have accepted it in the meridian of time. Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit, these are required to enter in to that small gate and narrow road.

[Rob Osborn]

As an LDS member, I get somewhat put off by always using the ter "Celestial kingdom" when referring to "heaven". I say this because even though that is the name of the Kingdom, it hasd a whole plethora of mormon baggage that doesn't make very much sense. The end goal for everyone is to be saved intot he kingdom of heaven. This is done through baptism by propoer authority. If one does not enter into this baptism by proper authority by the end of the millennium they will not be able to have claim on salvation through Christ's atonement and will be found instead on the left hand of God to be cast out with the devil and his angels.

The reality of it is that allmost all people will at some point become baptized and become members of the "church of the firstborn" and get to go to heaven. Most of these people however will accept the gospel of Christ in the spirit world. After they have been washed clean through baptism and have taken upon Christ's name, they have full access to salvation which will allow them to reap eternal life in the kingdom of God in heaven. So in all reality there is really just two separations of people- Those who are properly baptized and saved into God's kingdom, and second- those who are not believers and are not baptized into the kingdom of God. The second group is cast out into outer darkness according to Christ's teachings.

[Bsix]

Can a mainstream Christian (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) make it to the Celestial Kingdom without rejecting those central doctrines that the LDS church has deemed corrupt or apostate?

Six: I hope my comments will be viewed as dialog and not as criticism.

Personally, I found the wording of the survey question to be flawed. As such, I think the results will be suspect. With reservations I answered "no."

My oberservations of the question:

-- As is typical of what seems to be the traditional mindset, the question is posits that attaining the Celestial Kingdom is the result of what you REJECT...not what you accept. Accepting by affirmation of any church's doctrine requires that you reject the doctrines of alternate or competing theology. Thus the question focuses on the negative and what is being rejected.

-- I also wish the question were more objectively neutral in how it is worded. The use of polemic or hyperbole in poll questions always skew the results.

Also interesting is the implied tone of the poll that this survey is the mirror opposite of the polls asking if "Mormons will be saved as Mormons."

As such, there is something of an apples-to-oranges comparison being made.

I believe that LDS doctrine is quite clear. In order to attain the Celestial Kingdom one must accept the true Gospel and live the Gospel with love and faith in Jesus Christ to the best of your ability.

Traditional Protestantism is far less clear. There appears (at least to me) to be hidden messaging. To themselves and to the world at large, their message seems to be highly simplistic -- "accept Jesus and be saved." Yet, behind the simple facade, there is actually a great deal of complexity and orthodoxy that is required for salvation. It is almost as if traditional Christian evangelizing sends different messages to different audiences. I think this is the source of Latter Day Saints asking such questions as 'will a Mormon go to heaven?"

In fact, given that traditional Christian doctrine generally requires the rejection of false doctrine...Rhino's poll question could also apply to traditional Christians.

For example:

"Can a Latter Day Saint make it to the Heaven without rejecting those central doctrines that traditional Christianity has deemed corrupt or apostate?"

Now the shoe is on the other foot. I'd bet that most traditional Christians would answer "no, Mormons can't be saved" to this question. Thus, Salvation in traditional Christianity could fairly be positioned as being about what you reject...not what you accept. The usually hidden doctrinal orthodoxy requirement is shown to be equal the LDS belief in orthodoxy.

Regards,

Six

[Doctor Steuss]

Okay, take two. I already deleted my earlier attempt at a poll (one of the fringe benefits of the spambuster job).

I hope this question is self-explanatory. It's kind of using Drew's idea, just for the other side of the equation. LDS only, please (sorry, flameburns). Can I, as a Protestant, or SteubieU as a Catholic, make it to the Celestial Kingdom without rejecting those beliefs that the LDS church believes are corrupt and/or apostate? In other words, do I have to become LDS (in this life or the next) in order to live in the only heaven worth having?

Take care, everyone

I'm not sure why you would still hold to the Nicene Trinity formula while standing before two corporeal beings.

[jwhitlock]

-- As is typical of what seems to be the traditional mindset, the question is posits that attaining the Celestial Kingdom is the result of what you REJECT...not what you accept. Accepting by affirmation of any church's doctrine requires that you reject the doctrines of alternate or competing theology. Thus the question focuses on the negative and what is being rejected.

This is an excellent point. Entrance into the CK is based on "what you are willing to receive". Indeed, the whole of LDS theology is really based on a God who blesses us to the maximum possible - based on our willingness to receive it.

I don't think that's well understood.

Traditional Christian doctrine of salvation appears to be based more on hell-avoidance strategies.

[Paul Ray]

If one does not enter into this baptism by proper authority by the end of the millennium they will not be able to have claim on salvation through Christ's atonement and will be found instead on the left hand of God to be cast out with the devil and his angels.

That isn't our (LDS) doctrine, Rob.

Everyone will have "claim on salvation through Christ's atonement"... absolutely everyone.

There will simply be some people who stubbornly refuse to accept the plan of salvation while knowing what the plan of salvation is all about... in essence, refusing to accept their claim to it.

To be sent into "Outer Darkness" a person has to pretty much be like Satan, in possession of all of that knowledge while still choosing to openly fight against all of it... because they "love" what is evil and do not love what is good.

Satan will never worship God because Satan "loves" himself more than and not God.

[bluebell]

This is a hard question to compare answers to in regards to mainstream Christians.

The reason is that LDS believe that a person can die an evangelical Christian, for example, and eventually gain the Celestial kingdom.

We believe that a person's relationship with Christ is what matters most-not their church membership, and that if their relationship with Christ is 'on track' (for lack of a better description) then they WILL accept the further light and truth they will learn in the spirit world and have access to all the greatest gifts of God.

The state of the Heart is what matters most-not whether or not someone honestly believed in the Trinity or 'once saved always saved'.

Many mainstream Christians however do not believe that a mormon can die an active, believing, mormon and still be 'saved'.

With their belief-it's not the state of the heart that matters so much as whether or not a person got all the right answers on the test before they died.

[groove]

Again, I think this comes down to a misunderstanding of philosophy vs. belief in as much as it is required for proper practices. I also think you have to differentiate an ultimate state of things versus where we are right now. If we are talking about the ultimate state of someone who is in the Celestial Kingdom, then I think it is pretty clear that certain doctrines are incompatible with this state. But this is only because of the transformative process required to get there and be "one" with God, have "the mind of Christ" and all that.

If we are talking about mainstream Christian people here and now, I think there is a fairly wide latitude of belief within the LDS church. Maybe even moreso than mainstream Christianity. I'd bet if we polled LDS Church members around the world at a level of philosphical parsing required to establish classic Trinitarian doctrine, we would find a fair amount of "heresy" within the LDS faith. And this isn't even talking about the spectrum of unique LDS doctrine. If someone can make the essential doctrinal commitments required for undergoing Baptism which is the covenant required for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, then who is going to stop them? Are you going to tell me that everyone who gets baptized conforms perfectly to LDS orthodoxy on all matters? We had one lady on my mission come out of the baptismal waters and publically proclaim her gratitude to the Virgin Mary -- and then went on to thak Joseph Smith. Nobody revoked her baptism for that. She remained active in the Church, and does to this day as far as I know. I think her understanding of things changed over time, but that's how it works. Some get baptized and then gradually change their understanding, and a few become the "Kolob guy." But ultimately, salvation is based on a simple, active faith and a desire to put oneself right before the Lord, no matter what he requires.

In our cases, the Lord requires a covenant relationship, and to a certain extent he will tutor us out of our errors as we go along. So for me, the issue is whether we are willing to enter that covenant relationship and abide within it and all that entails.