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What Is The "good" In "doeth Good'?


David Waltz

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While reading Moroni chapter 10 with a couple of missionaries, the following verse jumped out at me in a light I have not experienced during any other reading:

And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10:25)

Any comments on what is meant by â??doeth goodâ??

Grace and peace,

David

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While reading Moroni chapter 10 with a couple of missionaries, the following verse jumped out at me in a light I have not experienced during any other reading:

Any comments on what is meant by â??doeth goodâ??

Grace and peace,

David

I think this is the context of "good works" and it is pretty clear to me that doing and sustaining good works is not possible without the grace of Jesus Christ; for example, McConkie says, in the Bible Dictionary, "It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." The Book of Mormon tells us that we are saved by grace, after all we can do. This scripture in Moroni reminds that "all we can do" is nothing without the grace.

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While reading Moroni chapter 10 with a couple of missionaries, the following verse jumped out at me in a light I have not experienced during any other reading:

Any comments on what is meant by â??doeth goodâ??

Grace and peace,

David

I think the best answer is that all good things come from God and we should remember that. However that does not mean that God makes us do goodworks. Great thought though.

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Hello John,

Thanks for responding; you wrote:

>>I think this is the context of "good works" and it is pretty clear to me that doing and sustaining good works is not possible without the grace of Jesus Christ; for example, McConkie says, in the Bible Dictionary, "It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." The Book of Mormon tells us that we are saved by grace, after all we can do. This scripture in Moroni reminds that "all we can do" is nothing without the grace.>>

Me: Good points; I would add that this â??assistance/graceâ? comes via the Holy Spirit, and that a portion of grace is given to all mankind.

Now with this, and the verse from Moroni, fresh in our minds, how do these concepts fit into first few centuries of the â??old worldâ? Church? In other words, did there cease to be any men of goodwill after the passing of the apostles?

Grace and peace,

David

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Hello Mola,

Donâ??t think I have had the pleasure of dialogue with you in the past; you posted:

>> I think the best answer is that all good things come from God and we should remember that. However that does not mean that God makes us do goodworks.>>

Me: Amen. Now, my question (similar to the ones I asked of John and BC) to you is: did â??good thingsâ? from God cease during the â??apostasyâ??

Grace and peace,

David

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While reading Moroni chapter 10 with a couple of missionaries, the following verse jumped out at me in a light I have not experienced during any other reading:

Any comments on what is meant by â??doeth goodâ??

David

That is an interesting question. I remember a scripture where a man referred to Jesus as "Good Master!" Jesus responded by saying: "Why callest thou me good? There is one good that is God."

I suppose the meaning of the word "good" lies in the context of how it is used.

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In answer to your question:did good things from God cease during the apostasy? I would have to look at the context of the scripture you quoted:

(Moroni 10:24-25) "And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief. And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God."
With this context in mind I would say yes. The Apostacy itself was brought about not so much by persecution and killing off the apostles (although that contributed) but because of unbelief. The Apostle John was not killed, he was taken from the people (like the three Nephites) because of unbelief.
(Mormon 8:10 "And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth."
So the apostacy was total, people did not receive revelations or the gifts of God because of their unbelief and wickedness. It was not until the restoration that those gifts and blessings were restored in their fullness to the earth.
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Me: Good points; I would add that this â??assistance/graceâ? comes via the Holy Spirit, and that a portion of grace is given to all mankind.

Now with this, and the verse from Moroni, fresh in our minds, how do these concepts fit into first few centuries of the â??old worldâ? Church? In other words, did there cease to be any men of goodwill after the passing of the apostles?

Grace and peace,

David

I think there have been men of good will in every time period. If God is no respecter of persons, why would he cease to work his grace through humans at certain times?

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Hello Mola,

Donâ??t think I have had the pleasure of dialogue with you in the past; you posted:

>> I think the best answer is that all good things come from God and we should remember that. However that does not mean that God makes us do goodworks.>>

Me: Amen. Now, my question (similar to the ones I asked of John and BC) to you is: did â??good thingsâ? from God cease during the â??apostasyâ??

Grace and peace,

David

Hi David. Never talked, but I did read many post aver at zlmb. I believe that man can do good by his own agency. I believe that good works still abound during the apostacy. Now, did they have the fulness of the law to make all of the required "good works". Perhaps that is the question?

As always I think Lightbearer did a great job in expounding upon my ideas a little.

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And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10:25)

This is a pretty strong statement and I had to read it over a couple of times to make sure I understood the absolute sense in which Moroni is speaking.

On the surface, this passage seems to be indefensible. Certainly there are people who do good things who make no pretense about doing them by the power and gifts of God.

When I am confronted by something that is so contradictory on the surface, there are only two choices to be made concerning its meaning. First, Joseph Smith wrote it and messed up big time. Second, it came from God, so the meaning may be something deeper than is immediately apparent.

In this case, it may be instructive to look at the following additional passages in the Book of Mormon, which may shed some light on the context Moroni meant this in (and, by the way, I don't believe the first option concerning JS is valid).

Alma 5:40-42

40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

42 And whosoever doeth this must receive his wages of him; therefore, for his wages he receiveth death, as to things pertaining unto righteousness, being dead unto all good works.

http://""' target="_blank"> The qualifiers or context of "good" in this passage include the following:

- Comes from God.

- Hearkens to the good shepherd and follows him.

- There is no lasting effect from good works that may be done (death follows).

II Nephi 26:33

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

This passage indicates:

- The Lord does good among the children of men.

- Good is plain to the children of men.

- When we come until the Lord we truly partake of goodness.

- None are denied of coming to Him.

Moroni probably understands that if the power and gifts of God are not evident or available, none doeth good because:

- All lasting good eminates from God and is only done through His power.

- When we come to the Lord because of good, and follow the shepherd, we can only do so through the power and gift and authority of God. Without those, we cannot be truly following the shepherd, which is part of doing good.

- Only in following the shepherd through the salvation offered through the power of God is lasting (eternal) good accomplished.

To summarize, it appears that the "good" being talked about is the lasting good of works pertaining to salvation and truly following Christ that can only come when the gifts and power and authority of God are available among the children of men.

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In answer to your question:did good things from God cease during the apostasy? I would have to look at the context of the scripture you quoted:With this context in mind I would say yes. The Apostacy itself was brought about not so much by persecution and killing off the apostles (although that contributed) but because of unbelief. The Apostle John was not killed, he was taken from the people (like the three Nephites) because of unbelief.So the apostacy was total, people did not receive revelations or the gifts of God because of their unbelief and wickedness. It was not until the restoration that those gifts and blessings were restored in their fullness to the earth.

I would have to disagree. I'm not aware of the doctrine of total apostasy requiring that the power and gift of God be totally absent from the earth at all times during said apostasy. Do we (LDS) consider that there are no people on the earth today other than ourselves that are capable of experiencing the power and gift of God? I think not. The BoM also specifically points out that Christopher Columbus was inspired by the Spirit in his discovery of the Americas. It is also commonly taught that the protestant reformers and the framers of the US constitution were all inspired... all during the apostasy.

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Hello John,

Thanks for responding; you wrote:

>>I think this is the context of "good works" and it is pretty clear to me that doing and sustaining good works is not possible without the grace of Jesus Christ; for example, McConkie says, in the Bible Dictionary, "It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." The Book of Mormon tells us that we are saved by grace, after all we can do. This scripture in Moroni reminds that "all we can do" is nothing without the grace.>>

Me: Good points; I would add that this â??assistance/graceâ? comes via the Holy Spirit...

I agree with John here and also with you.

I have been listening to some interesting sermons on works. One in particular focuses on John 15 and the fruit of the vine.

Jhn 15:1

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Me: Good points; I would add that this â??assistance/graceâ? comes via the Holy Spirit, and that a portion of grace is given to all mankind.

Now with this, and the verse from Moroni, fresh in our minds, how do these concepts fit into first few centuries of the â??old worldâ? Church? In other words, did there cease to be any men of goodwill after the passing of the apostles?

No. The light of Christ lights every man that comes into the world.

Do you think this verse alludes to the so-called Great Apostacy?

Strictly speaking, this epistle was addressed to the Lamanites and

to the House of Israel...

Bernard

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