Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."What is "the world?"Uncle Dale Link to comment
hagoth7 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."What is "the world?"Uncle DaleBased on the language in the manuscripts, I'm not convinced anything approximating "world" was intended. Link to comment
Severian Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."What is "the world?"Uncle Dale Titus 1:2 My message is based on the confidence of eternal life. God, who never lies, promised this eternal life before the world began. 2Titus 1:9 God saved us and called us to be holy, not because of what we had done, but because of his own plan and kindness. Before the world began, God planned that Christ Jesus would show us God's kindness. Based on these two scriptures, I would say the world being spoken of was not a place, but rather the emergence of human life upon the earth. However, it could equally apply to the entire universe, but the reference does seem to be most applicable to our emergence 15 billion years later. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 Titus 1:2 My message is based on the confidence of eternal life. God, who never lies, promised this eternal life before the world began. 2Titus 1:9 God saved us and called us to be holy, not because of what we had done, but because of his own plan and kindness. Before the world began, God planned that Christ Jesus would show us God's kindness. Based on these two scriptures, I would say the world being spoken of was not a place, but rather the emergence of human life upon the earth. However, it could equally apply to the entire universe, but the reference does seem to be most applicable to our emergence 15 billion years later.Yeah, I know it's a bit obscure.Would "the world" include the bottoms of the seas? -- the tops of all the mountains? -- the moon? -- the firmament? -- the skies? -- the sun? -- the milky way? -- hell?UD Link to comment
Severian Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Would "the world" include the bottoms of the seas? -- the tops of all the mountains? -- the moon? -- the firmament? -- the skies? -- the sun? -- the milky way? -- hell?UD Perhaps, because I know there has been speculation that these created items will be transformed into the Celestial Kingdom. Hell? No. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 Perhaps, because I know there has been speculation that these created items will be transformed into the Celestial Kingdom. Hell? No. I wonder -- in the Hebrew Bible there is no such word as "world," -- rather, there are words like "the heavens and the earth," or "the land," or "the ground," etc.But in Greek we have the word "kosmos," which can mean the entire physical universe -- or just that part of the universe where life can exist -- or the social order of human beings upon our planet.So, when the LXX superimposes "kosmos" back upon the Hebrew "heavens and earth," it is an unknown word for the original Bible -- (actually, I think there are few such examples in the LXX -- in Job, I guess).But I have frequently heard and read Latter Day Saint commentary regarding "the world" in pre-Christian times -- or the "organization of the world" before hunan beings ever inhabited the earth.If "the world" was an unknown concept to the ancient Israelites, are we making a mistake in speaking of such things that far back in time?UD Link to comment
Nephi Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 I think its referring to the universe in general. The "start of time" if you will. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 I think its referring to the universe in general. The "start of time" if you will.Yeah -- probably so -- but I picked a couple of NT examples to begin with. What I'm really interested in, is how Latter Day Saints apply the term to the earlier, pre-Christian era.Kittel's "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" says something interesting:"The adoption of the term kosmos by the LXX is an important event in history, for this makes of it a biblical as well as a philosiphical concept. The LXX uses kosmos for the "host" (of heaven -- Gen. 2:1; Dt. 4:19), thus combining such ideas as order, adornment, world, heaven, and stars (Ex. 33:5; Prov. 20:29; Is 3:24; Nah. 2:10; Is. 49:18; Prov. 28:17, etc. etc."So, I guess what I'm really asking, is what do LDS mean by "the world," when they use that word in speaking about pre-Christian times?How is the word used in the BoM, prior to III Nephi, for example?the redemption of the worldsince the world beganthe creation of the worldthings which are pleasing unto the worldthem which are not of the worlda large and spacious field, as if it had been a worldin other words, a Saviour of the worldthis Redeemer of the worldthe sins of the worldprepared from the foundation of the worldwrite concerning the end of the worldsince the world beganfrom the creation of the worldhe cometh into the worldI will punish the worldmade the world as a wildernessnor fill the face of the worlda light unto the worldetc. etc. etc.Is this really Hebrew phraseology?UD. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 the redemption of the worldsince the world beganthe creation of the worldthings which are pleasing unto the worldthem which are not of the worlda large and spacious field, as if it had been a worldin other words, a Saviour of the worldthis Redeemer of the worldthe sins of the worldprepared from the foundation of the worldwrite concerning the end of the worldsince the world beganfrom the creation of the worldhe cometh into the worldI will punish the worldmade the world as a wildernessnor fill the face of the worlda light unto the worldBook of Mormon "hebraisms" -- proving that 1Nephi and 2Nephi are ancient documents, written by Israelites or early Jews?Uncle Dale Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?Sin.Pain.Temptation.Evil.Etc.We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties? Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?Sin.Pain.Temptation.Evil.Etc.We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties?That's typically how I have interpreted it. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?Sin.Pain.Temptation.Evil.Etc.We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties?And yet Mormons talk of progressing to godhood, in order to create worlds -- are worlds bad things? For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure? ???UD Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Could "The World" be that which is not of G-d?Sin.Pain.Temptation.Evil.Etc.We are told to not be "of the world." Could it be that "before the world began" is before evil found its way into the list of our dismal human frailties?Ill through this thought out. All things are spirtual as well as temporal. Yes?Both Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 speak of "before the world began."Many other biblical passages speak of "the foundation of the world" or use similar language to refer to the beginning of "the world;" or before the beginning of "the world."What is "the world?"Uncle DaleThis seems to indicate the physical creation. Since it only say before the world was created, not of the world. Link to comment
cdowis Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 "Before the world" in these verses is referring to the Council in the pre-existence, where the Plan of Salvation.... Happiness was presented.Assignments were made during this council, of which the creation of this earth was planned and executed. Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 And yet Mormons talk of progressing to godhood, in order to create worlds -- are worlds bad things????UDHence why I said "typically." Context helps.Interestingly, we find the word used most often by my count in Isaiah, which book Nephi favors.Old TestamentPsalms(about 15 times, the most noteworthy as seen below:)89:11- ...The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the aworld and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them90:2- ...Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst aformed the earth and the world, even from beverlasting to everlasting, thou art God.Isaiah...That made the world as a wilderness......that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities....for when thy cjudgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness....we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.(appx. 10 more in addition to those above)Samuel...for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them. ...And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.Jeremiah(Thrice, 2 of 3 dealing with creation:)...He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. We find it also in 1 Chronicles (once), Job (thrice), Ecclesiastes (once), Lamentations (once,) and Nahum (close to Nahom?) (once.)Pearl of Great Price:Moses 1 (four times; additionally we see "worlds.")Moses 4 (one)Moses 5 (three)Moses 6 (nine)Moses 7 (three)Abraham 3 (once) Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 "Before the world" in these verses is referring to the Council in the pre-existence, where the Plan of Salvation.... Happiness was presented.Assignments were made during this council, of which the creation of this earth was planned and executed.So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?UD Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?UDIt might also note that it is very possible and resonable that when in the Bible the "world" pertains only to this world. So the univers could very well have been physically there and even the neighboring solar system could have been there for many years before this earth was created. Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?UDIt has many meanings in LDS theology. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 It might also note that it is very possible and resonable that when in the Bible the "world" pertains only to this world. So the univers could very well have been physically there and even the neighboring solar system could have been there for many years before this earth was created.That is why, earlier in this thread, I brought out the fact that the Greek "cosmos" was not applied to the text of the Hebrew Bible until a very late date -- after most of that canon had already been written.The more typical Hebrew expression, is "the heavens and the earth," in which really, only "the earth" is "the world" of our OT English translations.That is why Life's citation of certain OT passages is problematic -- because the Hebrew language and mindset does not contain the notion of "cosmos" or "cosmic" or "universal."When the Book of Job writer asks, "Canst thou bind the sweet influence of the Pleiades?" the reference there is probably not about something in our "world." The earth, to Israelites, was their universe.UD Link to comment
LifeOnaPlate Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 That is why, earlier in this thread, I brought out the fact that the Greek "cosmos" was not applied to the text of the Hebrew Bible until a very late date -- after most of that canon had already been written.The more typical Hebrew expression, is "the heavens and the earth," in which really, only "the earth" is "the world" of our OT English translations.That is why Life's citation of certain OT passages is problematic -- because the Hebrew language and mindset does not contain the notion of "cosmos" or "cosmic" or "universal."When the Book of Job writer asks, "Canst thou bind the sweet influence of the Pleiades?" the reference there is probably not about something in our "world." The earth, to Israelites, was their universe.UDKeeping in mind that what we read isn't always what they believed or understood, can you comfortably assert you completely understand Old Testament period cosmology?Also, it becomes less problematic when we check out the Book of Moses, as I referenced before. And the word itself has many different meanings in LDS theology. Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 That is why, earlier in this thread, I brought out the fact that the Greek "cosmos" was not applied to the text of the Hebrew Bible until a very late date -- after most of that canon had already been written.The more typical Hebrew expression, is "the heavens and the earth," in which really, only "the earth" is "the world" of our OT English translations.That is why Life's citation of certain OT passages is problematic -- because the Hebrew language and mindset does not contain the notion of "cosmos" or "cosmic" or "universal."When the Book of Job writer asks, "Canst thou bind the sweet influence of the Pleiades?" the reference there is probably not about something in our "world." The earth, to Israelites, was their universe.UDI suppose in some instances truth is truth no matter what planet you live on huh?I geuss the real question is: does what happen on this planet happen in every instance on another planet? Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 And yet Mormons talk of progressing to godhood, in order to create worlds -- are worlds bad things????UDThey are a means to an end... A stepping stone to greater things. The temporal must be known for some of us to be refined into something that will make our Father proud.What did that pesky Nephite opine? Something about opposition in all something-or-other... my reformed Egyptian is rusty. Link to comment
Uncle Dale Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 They are a means to an end... A stepping stone to greater things. The temporal must be known for some of us to be refined into something that will make our Father proud.hmmmmmm....I was never taught this stuff. If there is a "plurality of worlds," then I suppose there must be some sort of boundary markers between them?But if worlds are merely a means to an end, then why, in Genesis, does God say that the heavens and the earth are "good?"And if Mormons anticipate "organizing worlds" and populating them with their own spirit children, thenwould not those worlds also be "good," and not just a necessary task, required for greater exaltation?But, all of that latter day stuff to one side, why does the term "world" pop up so much in the first part of the BoM, where we would expect that the Israelite writers would not yet have encountered any reference to the Greek "kosmos?"UD Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 hmmmmmm....I was never taught this stuff. If there is a "plurality of worlds," then I suppose there must be some sort of boundary markers between them?Dunno. You were probably never taught this stuff though because this is the heretical gospel of Stuart. I tends to be very esoteric as it is most likely a one-way ticket to Outer Darkness.But if worlds are merely a means to an end, then why, in Genesis, does God say that the heavens and the earth are "good?"Did He say they were "good" during the spiritual creation, or the physical creation? Was it before "the world" (i.e. sin) was on the scene?And if Mormons anticipate "organizing worlds" and populating them with their own spirit children, thenwould not those worlds also be "good," and not just a necessary task, required for greater exaltation?Behold this is my work and glory... Sometimes "work and glory" require the potter to get a little clay on His hands. Then again, I suppose He could always pawn such things off on Sarakiel.But, all of that latter day stuff to one side, why does the term "world" pop up so much in the first part of the BoM, where we would expect that the Israelite writers would not yet have encountered any reference to the Greek "kosmos?"UDJoseph's 19th Century Protestantism leaking through...?Edited to add:Please stop making me think Rabbi Broadhurst. It hurts my head. Link to comment
cdowis Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 So then, in "referring to the Council" -- is the reference to a situation in which there was not yet any physical universe? Or just no organized worlds in our physical universe?Does "the world" have certain physical bounds, or does it extend beyong the farthest celestial object ever photographed by the most powerful telescope?When LDS GAs speak of "the world," what precisely do they mean by the term?UDWithin the context of these scriptures, "world" does not refer to the overall universe, but to our earth, including most likely the solar system. "World" can also be a generic term meaning the secular society in which mortals inhabit, good and evil intermixed.We are in the world, but not of the world. Link to comment
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