Jesus' Suffering In Gethsemane

[Bernard Gui]

A unique LDS doctrine is that the atonement was wrought in the Garden

of Gethsemane.

In my New English Bible, Mark 14:41 says,

"The third time he came and said to them, 'Still sleeping? Still taking your ease?

Enough! The hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed to sinful men."

After 'enough!" there is a footnote that says,

"The Greek is obscure; a possible meaning is 'The money has been paid, the account is settled."

This would seem to support the LDS position that the atonement was worked out

in the garden.

Comments?

Bernard

[Uncle Dale]

A unique LDS doctrine is that the atonement was wrought in the Garden

of Gethsemane.

In my New English Bible, Mark 14:41 says,

"The third time he came and said to them, 'Still sleeping? Still taking your ease?

Enough! The hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed to sinful men."

After 'enough!" there is a footnote that says,

"The Greek is obscure; a possible meaning is 'The money has been paid, the account is settled."

This would seem to support the LDS position that the atonement was worked out

in the garden.

Comments?

Bernard

I sincerely believe that the "atonement" is timeless -- that it was in God's Being from all eternity.

There was a necessary turning point in human history however -- and that turning point is "played out"

all through the passion story. Each element of the narrative reflects or actualizes the atonement ---

but if there is one central moment to all of it, that moment comes in the garden, when Jesus submits

to the will of Heavenly Father.

No need to measure the blood supposedly flowing from his skin, or any other physical aspect. For, as

I just said, God's forgiveness is from all eternity.

There was no one, magical moment when the Mosaic Law was ended and the "New Covenant" began --

rather, one flows into the other, like a tributary into a river.

Before we ever repent, we are forgiven and our sins remitted --- but we do not see it that way from

our limited existence in time and space. For us, events happen sequentially -- and thus, for each of us,

the "first principles of the gospel" happen in a given sequence.

UD

[Bernard Gui]

I sincerely believe that the "atonement" is timeless -- that it was in God's Being from all eternity.

There was a necessary turning point in human history however -- and that turning point is "played out"

all through the passion story. Each element of the narrative reflects or actualizes the atonement ---

but if there is one central moment to all of it, that moment comes in the garden, when Jesus submits

to the will of Heavenly Father.

No need to measure the blood supposedly flowing from his skin, or any other physical aspect. For, as

I just said, God's forgiveness is from all eternity.

There was no one, magical moment when the Mosaic Law was ended and the "New Covenant" began --

rather, one flows into the other, like a tributary into a river.

Before we ever repent, we are forgiven and our sins remitted --- but we do not see it that way from

our limited existence in time and space. For us, events happen sequentially -- and thus, for each of us,

the "first principles of the gospel" happen in a given sequence.

UD

Very beautifully stated, UD. Thanks for writing this.

I point to Mosiah 3:7, which describes the agony that he suffered in the garden: "for behold, blood cometh

from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people"

and D&C 19:18, "Which suffering caused myself, even God...to tremble because of pain, and to bleed

at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit,' which preceded his submitting to the will of the Father.

Bernard

[ghedmondson]

I have always heard of the Atonement as having two parts LDS.org

Christ Suffered and Died to Atone for Our Sins

The Savior atoned for our sins by suffering in Gethsemane and by giving his life on the cross. It is impossible for us to fully understand how he suffered for all of our sins. In the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of our sins caused him to feel such agony and heartbreak that he bled from every pore (see D&C 19:18â??19). Later, as he hung upon the cross, Jesus suffered painful death by one of the most cruel methods known to man.

How Jesus loves us, to suffer such spiritual and physical agony for our sake! How great the love of Heavenly Father that he would send his Only Begotten Son to suffer and die for the rest of his children. â??For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting lifeâ? (John 3:16).

The Atonement and Resurrection Bring Resurrection to All

On the third day after his crucifixion, Christ took up his body again and became the first person to be resurrected. When his friends went to seek him, the angels who guarded his tomb told them, â??He is not here: for he is risen, as he saidâ? (Matthew 28:6). His spirit had reentered his body, never to be separated again.

Christ thus overcame physical death. Because of his atonement, everyone born on this earth will be resurrected (see 1 Corinthians 15:21â??22). Just as Jesus was resurrected, our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, â??that they can die no more â?¦ , never to be dividedâ? (Alma 11:45). This condition is called immortality. All people who have ever lived will be resurrected, â??both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteousâ? (Alma 11:44).

Both Gethsemane and the cross were required for the Atonement to be complete. Or in other words, for us to be able to one day become like our Heavenly Father. One to overcome spiritual death, sin, the other to overcome physical death and so that we could one day be resurrected and have a perfected body like our Father.

Mormons differ from Traditional Christians in that they recognize that the Lordâ??s suffering in the garden constituted a full half of the Atonement.

Traditional Christians have a wide variety of explanations for the Lordâ??s suffering in the garden. The one that I was taught in the South Baptist private school, that I attended during my high school years, was that the suffering was a result of his anticipation of what was going to happen on the cross.

Grace and Peace

Bro. Edmondson

ps a shameless plug for the best book writen about the passions week by LDS, From theLast Supper through the Resurrrection

[Jigglysaint]

"The money has been paid, the account is settled."

All that's left to do is spend, spend spend! No worries about the future, if we go broke again Jesus will just get us our of the hole a second, or a third, or fourth time.

[Uncle Dale]

Bernard

Your icon needs to go on a diet.

Uncle "or else re-calculate the number of x-axis pixels" Dale

[Uncle Dale]

"The money has been paid, the account is settled."

All that's left to do is spend, spend spend! No worries about the future, if we go broke again Jesus will just get us our of the hole a second, or a third, or fourth time.

Well -- Martin Lither did indeed say "Sin boldly!"

But I do not think he had in mind our each acting out the Texas Chain-Saw Murders.....

Uncle "There's just a teensy bit more to the Gospel than that" Dale

[Severian]

Mosiah 3:7, which describes the agony that he suffered in the garden: "for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people"

I have always wondered about the massive cellular disruption that would have to occur in order to bleed from every pore. Cynics would say that this is impossible, and that not even the final stages of Hemorrhagic Fever from the Ebola virus or being hit by a truck could cause such a complete cellular disruption. Ha, what do they know? Given the aversion the Jews had for blood, you would think however that they would have noticed Jesus being drenched in blood from head to toe.

[BCSpace]

A unique LDS doctrine is that the atonement was wrought in the Garden

of Gethsemane.

In my New English Bible, Mark 14:41 says,

"The third time he came and said to them, 'Still sleeping? Still taking your ease?

Enough! The hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed to sinful men."

After 'enough!" there is a footnote that says,

"The Greek is obscure; a possible meaning is 'The money has been paid, the account is settled."

This would seem to support the LDS position that the atonement was worked out

in the garden.

Comments?

Perhaps he is simply referring to the fact that he was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver?

Of course I agree that he took upon him our sins in the garden. Afterall, it is by the shed blood of Christ that we are saved and that seems to be the most bloody part of the Atonement.

[Uncle Dale]

I have always wondered about the massive cellular disruption that would have to occur in order to bleed from every pore. Cynics would say that this is impossible, and that not even the final stages of Hemorrhagic Fever from the Ebola virus or being hit by a truck could cause such a complete cellular disruption. Ha, what do they know? Given the aversion the Jews had for blood, you would think however that they would have noticed Jesus being drenched in blood from head to toe.

I suppose that the account in Mosiah might be relegated to hyperbolic symbolism (as the CoC leaders do),

or discarded altogether (as non-Saints do).

My understandings of Jesus are in no way impacted by the Mosiah account, and more than they are by my

reading of the Talmud or the Mishna.

But, for my Utah cousins, I guess the material remains part of the "fulness of the gospel," which was either

left out of the biblical narrative or deleted by the Great and Abominable Church.

Perhaps some Mormons can even bypass the BoM, as not being essential to their faith. If so, I suppose

they keep quiet about that realization. In the meanwhile, fully observant Mormons have much to ponder.

UD

[BCSpace]

I suppose that the account in Mosiah might be relegated to hyperbolic symbolism (as the CoC leaders do),

or discarded altogether (as non-Saints do).

.......

But, for my Utah cousins, I guess the material remains part of the "fulness of the gospel," which was either

left out of the biblical narrative or deleted by the Great and Abominable Church.

I don't see how Mosiah 3:7 is much different than the combined accounts of Mark 14:33-35 and Luke 22:44.

[Uncle Dale]

I don't see how Mosiah 3:7 is much different than the combined accounts of Mark 14:33-35 and Luke 22:44.

Well, it would not take much work to cut-and-paste the relevent quotes here, adding in some underlines to

illustrate which words and phrases are shared by the respective texts.

If you or somebody else cares to do that, we would at least have an example to examine and discuss.

UD

.

[BCSpace]

Well, it would not take much work to cut-and-paste the relevent quotes here

My usual assumption is that one reading the board has the same access to scripture as I have, but I'll be happy to oblige.

Mark 14

33And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

Luke 22

42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

I think the fact that even Jesus, who is a God, would be amazed and would need an angel to strengthen him is a key indication that something as serious as taking on the sins of the world is taking place here. The only difference is (not much difference as I said) the the BoM (and modern revelation) tells us what it is he is suffering.

Some people take exception to the 'as it were' statement about sweating great drops of blood. Lexiconally (Strong's and Thayer's) it really looks like he is sweating blood and again modern revelation confirms.

So there is nothing at all contradictory, out of line, or a stretch involved in this unique LDS doctrine.

[Uncle Dale]

So there is nothing at all contradictory, out of line, or a stretch involved in this unique LDS doctrine.

So Mark has Jesus falling down to the ground -- and the later Lukan text includes that falling to the ground,

but replaces what fell, with perspiration, rather than the body itself?

But no -- that can't be right, for the real Lukan parallel is in 22:41, where, rather than "falling" down,

Jesus kneels down to pray.

So -- where in any of the other gospel texts do we find a parallel to the falling perspiration?

The answer is -- that we don't. Throckmorton's "Gospel Parallels" excludes the Lukan passage altogether,

and supplies a note saying that it is a textual variant, peculiar to certain manuscripts (but held valid by

Marcion, Clement, Origen, etc.)

The Jesus Seminar's "Five Gospels" also excludes the passage, supplying no known parallels in any

other texts. The controversy over the Lukan passage was known in the 19th century and was mentioned

in biblical commentaries of that period.

Moving over to Mosiah, we see there that the writer excerpts the jist of this single controversial Lukan

passage, divorcing it from its larger textual context and embellishing the wording to refer to real blood.

What are the possibilities here? One possibility is that the original Jesus tradition spoke of real blood,

and that reference was "watered down" by Luke and eliminated by the other evangelists and apostolic

writers. Another possibility is that it is a gloss, inserted into Luke's text at an early date and preserved

in certain manuscripts.

There may be other, sub-possibilities, but the scholarship I can easily access on the matter appears to

accept the second explanation --- that it is an insertion, and unknown to the other biblical writers.

If that is indeed the proper explanation, then the Mosiah passage should be seen as an overt attempt

to resolve a small controversy in 19th century commentaries ---- but resolve it in such a way that some

major soteriological implications become evident.

I'm inclined to go along with the consensus textual scholarship on this one.

Uncle Dale

[paulhadik]

the problem here is that the wages of sin from the Garden of Eden on is death, not just anxious suffering.

If a potential sacrifice in the temple sweat blood that didn't suffice, Christ's great show of humanity was on display in the Garden.

His vicarious death for our sins took place completely on the cross.

[Uncle Dale]

the problem here is that the wages of sin from the Garden of Eden on is death, not just anxious suffering.

If a potential sacrifice in the temple sweat blood that didn't suffice, Christ's great show of humanity was on display in the Garden.

His vicarious death for our sins took place completely on the cross.

This is one interpretation of the atonement -- but there are other interpretations as well.

The question is -- if I am sitting in some little, non-denominational chapel somewhere, and the congregation

is singing "Power in the Blood," must I join in with their singing (and their theology) to be acceptable unto

our Heavenly Father?

I am not a big fan of Christian creeds -- nor of the mandatory exclusion/excommunication of members who

hold different view on soteriology and the precise definition of atonement.

Some others ARE great supporters of creeds, and would boot me out of the chapel the moment I refused

to sing that hymn.

Such is religion.

UD

[cksalmon]

A unique LDS doctrine is that the atonement was wrought in the Garden

of Gethsemane.

In my New English Bible, Mark 14:41 says,

"The third time he came and said to them, 'Still sleeping? Still taking your ease?

Enough! The hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed to sinful men."

After 'enough!" there is a footnote that says,

"The Greek is obscure; a possible meaning is 'The money has been paid, the account is settled."

This would seem to support the LDS position that the atonement was worked out

in the garden.

Comments?

Bernard

Hi Bernard--

The footnote apparently follows the suggestion of Johannes de Zwaan (in Expositor VI.xii, 452ff.), who sees to loipon in a commercial sense (but one relating to Judas's receipt of the 30 pieces of silver ["the money has been paid"] rather than the Atonement). De Zwaan's reading is obscure enough. But the linkage you've suggested between the relevant phrase (καταθευδετε το λοιπον και αναπαυεσθε / κatheudete to lipon kai anapauesthe) and the completion of the Atonement has no support in any readings I've seen of the passage.

Vincent Taylor (The Gospel According to St. Mark [London: Macmillan & Co., Ltd, 1953], 555-557)--following others--suggests the plausible (but non-traditional) reading: "Still asleep? Still resting? The End is far away? The hour is struck. Behold the Son of Man is being delivered into the hands of sinners. Arise, let us be going. Behold, he who delivers me up is near."

The third ironical question ("the end is far away?") makes more sense contextually than the obscure and only faintly-attested commercial sense adopted by de Zwaan.

It is an interesting passage, but I see nothing here about Jesus commenting on the completion of the Atonement. Were one to read the passage in this way, I'm afraid the presupposition would be predetermining one's conclusion.

Best.

CKS

[paulhadik]

Geez Uncle Dale:

what kind of churches have you visited? I think most churches don't usually have hymn police patrolling to see who does or does not sing; most of us would just assume you sing like a toad and appreciate your silence for what it is, sparing the rest of us...

Is there a hymn "Power in the Sweat"?

I will confess I have never understood the point of this teaching, that the atonement and the Garden are linked but you have difficulty proving it with Scripture. Again from Eden onwards death is always the penalty and the price

[Uncle Dale]

Geez Uncle Dale:

what kind of churches have you visited?

You name it -- I've probably been there. I served my student pastorate in a large Baptist congregation

in Columbus, Ohio. Although they never quite set the "hymn police" upon me, my non-participation in

certain things there was a source of consternation to them. Had I been a member of the congregation,

and not just a temporary student intern, I know it would have gotten me into trouble. The last act of

"questionable piety" I was engaged in, was taking communion in a Missouri Synod Lutheran service,

where the pastor made it crystal clear that non-members could not participate. After refusing to stand

and repeat the Apostles' Creed, I hobbled up to the communion rail, knelt in considerable pain, and

remained until the minister gave the wafter and wine. I think he did not know what else to do with me.

I think most churches don't usually have hymn police patrolling to see who does or does not sing;

most of us would just assume you sing like a toad and appreciate your silence for what it is, sparing

the rest of us...

Is there a hymn "Power in the Sweat"?

Maybe -- when Gold's Gym has closed down for the evening and the local Pentecostals are using the

place as a chapel.

I recall attending two different AG worship services in one week. At the first, I was told not to yell out

"Hosanna!" --- that the proper word was "Hallelujah!" --- and at the other one, I was told to only raise

my arms during praise, (and not when the offering was being taken up).

Seems I never get that stuff right, eh?

I will confess I have never understood the point of this teaching, that the atonement and the Garden

are linked but you have difficulty proving it with Scripture. Again from Eden onwards death is always

the penalty and the price

So why did Enoch and Ezekiel not die?

I have the feeling that death has been around in this universe, so long as there has been life.

But I am interested in Jesus' use of the parable in which the master's son is killed by stoning ---

I wonder if he did not at one point, guess that would be his fate, rather than Roman crucifixion?

UD

.

[Aquilifer]

Not to derail the thread, but can anyone explain to me why it really matters at what point the Atonement occurred? I've heard critics pound on us at times for focusing more on Gethsemane than Golgotha, but I honestly don't understand what difference it makes: the point is that the Atonement happened. Understanding the technical ins and outs of the process seems as impossible to grasp as the idea of a vicarious atonement for every darn little sin I have committed and will continue to commit.*

*But I'll throw my $.02 in and opine that the Atonement was a process that began in Gethsemane (or mayber even earlier in the evening); continued during the trial, taunting, scourging; continued on the trek to the execution site while carrying the cross; and finally culminated on the cross when Christ called out, "It is finished."

[Uncle Dale]

Not to derail the thread, but can anyone explain to me why it really matters at what point the Atonement occurred? I've heard critics pound on us at times for focusing more on Gethsemane than Golgotha, but I honestly don't understand what difference it makes: the point is that the Atonement happened. Understanding the technical ins and outs of the process seems as impossible to grasp as the idea of a vicarious atonement for every darn little sin I have committed and will continue to commit.*

*But I'll throw my $.02 in and opine that the Atonement was a process that began in Gethsemane (or mayber even earlier in the evening); continued during the trial, taunting, scourging; continued on the trek to the execution site while carrying the cross; and finally culminated on the cross when Christ called out, "It is finished."

You've convinved me -- though, as I said earlier, I place the beginning of it all back about a zillion years ago.

UD

[Aquilifer]

You've convinved me -- though, as I said earlier, I place the beginning of it all back about a zillion years ago.

UD

Very true, unless you distinguish the ACT of Atonement from the actual EFFECT of Atonement. Or can you really even do that?

Ah, the deeper mysteries! They make life infinitely more fun, if somewhat more frustrating!

[katherine the great]

Not to derail the thread, but can anyone explain to me why it really matters at what point the Atonement occurred?

I've wondered that too.

[Bernard Gui]

I've wondered that too.

1. It was prophesied by a Book of Mormon prophet

2. The prophecy was fulfilled in the New Testament

3. Jesus verified the specific event himself in one of the

most significant sections of the D&C

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

the problem here is that the wages of sin from the Garden of Eden on is death, not just anxious suffering.

If a potential sacrifice in the temple sweat blood that didn't suffice, Christ's great show of humanity was on display in the Garden.

His vicarious death for our sins took place completely on the cross.

Suffering in the Garden was one portion of His suffering...the other took place on

the cross. Both are significant, and together they completed the atonement as

it had been ordained from the beginning.

Bernard