"love The Sinner, Hate The Sin"

[cartoon bluejay]

Believe me CB, if I wanted to attack you, you'd know you'd been attacked. I do that well too, as both Hick Preacher and Rocmonkey have recently learned the hard way.

Congratulations; mine are both 11.

And I'm glad to know that your practice exceeds your preaching instead of the other way around.

Two last points that parents of twins should always know:

1) They can smell fear and communicate non-verbally to co-ordinate their strategy.

2) Even so, they usually won't attack as long as you maintain eye contact.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran -

I like you!

[Pahoran]

Back to the topic: I think "hate the sin and love the sinner" can work and should work. When it doesn't, I believe there are two contributing factors:

1) As I mentioned earlier, "unconditional acceptance" has become something of a catch-cry, and is used as a slogan to mean something like "accept me as I am," which equals, "don't object when I bring my cherished misbehaviours into your living room." People nowadays are too proud to allow anyone to accept them in spite of their faults; rather, they want everyone to "affirm" that their faults aren't faults at all, but are positive aspects of their lives. The one thing the unrepentant can't stand is magnanimity on anyone else's part.

2) Less commonly, but getting more attention, it is possible for those trying to apply this approach to be sanctimonious about it. I don't believe this is anywhere near as prevalent as some have tried to make out, though. It takes a heroic--and rather intentional--effort at misunderstanding to pretend that "I hate what you do but I love you" is equivalent to "I hate people like you but I love you."

Regards,

Pahoran

[cartoon bluejay]

1) As I mentioned earlier, "unconditional acceptance" has become something of a catch-cry, and is used as a slogan to mean something like "accept me as I am," which equals, "don't object when I bring my cherished misbehaviours into your living room." People nowadays are too proud to allow anyone to accept them in spite of their faults; rather, they want everyone to "affirm" that their faults aren't faults at all, but are positive aspects of their lives. The one thing the unrepentant can't stand is magnanimity on anyone else's part.

2) Less commonly, but getting more attention, it is possible for those trying to apply this approach to be sanctimonious about it. I don't believe this is anywhere near as prevalent as some have tried to make out, though. It takes a heroic--and rather intentional--effort at misunderstanding to pretend that "I hate what you do but I love you" is equivalent to "I hate people like you but I love you."

Well then â?? we are back to the question â??What is sin?â? You make it sound like anyone who has a problem with the phrase â??hate the sin and love the sinnerâ? is willing to let any activity that anyone deems appropriate into their living room. Iâ??m not talking about â??unconditional acceptanceâ? either. If my husband or son or any member of the family turned out to a child molester â?? theyâ??re out. Do I hate the sin? You bet I do â?? do I love the sinner? Well â?? thereâ??s a definite part of that person that I hate. Where do you separate the sin from the sinner? To me â?? thatâ??s the extreme of it that can always come into play to make others see how someone can and should hate the sin. Without going down the road of the extremes of the illegal behaviours like drug abuse and child molestation, etc., (I think society has determined theyâ??re sins). Admittedly both extremes can be used to find a supposed winner for this argument. Iâ??m more interested in finding understanding in the middle ground. So again, the other question â??who determines what sin is?â?

In my opinion, every parent has the responsibility to teach their children a moral code. The way I see it too many parents do not, and too many children are left to try and figure it out all on their own. This, in my eyes, is unfortunate, especially combined with the generation of entitled children. So â?? I see where youâ??re coming from when it comes to saying â??NOâ?. However my view of the problem with the statement â??Hate the sin and love the sinnerâ? is not about an inability to say â??NOâ? nor is it about not having backbone (as you put it).

Itâ??s about laying it all on the line with your children â?? honestly and without manipulation- teaching them about the principles of God and standing by your principles and your moral code and then having the ability to let them be adults. My guess, if youâ??ve done that well â?? there will be no need to worry about what your children will want to bring into your home. They will respect who you are and not want to bring you any discomfort, because they love you and what you stand for even if they themselves do not stand for the same thing (exactly). But in the occasion that you have a son or daughter who is an adult and has determined that your moral code is not their moral code. The code is similar to yours where they believe in responsible, committed sex but they also believe in pre-marital sex. They donâ??t do drugs, they have a career, they are added positively to the world and they donâ??t believe pre-marital sex is a sin. Can they come home with their responsible, committed relationship? Or are they going to be faced with parents who are consumed with the hate of the sin, who also insist on treating their adult offspring like a child?

Another issue that keeps being brought up is homosexuality because itâ??s debatable. No one really knows where this sexual identity comes from. It completely goes against the plan of our Heavenly Father but yet here it is â?? now hereâ??s my opinion about why this is such an important issueâ?¦ from what I can tell â?? this isnâ??t like drinking alcohol or choosing to engage in pre-marital sex. This is a personâ??s sexual identity. To say â??I hate homosexualityâ? to someone struggling with this issue is saying â??I hate youâ?. It doesnâ??t appear to be something that can be chosen or prayed away. Yes â?? they can choose whether to act on their desires. This is also a very personal issue for me because my very best friend is struggling with this issue. They are a member of the church in good standing, they are married, they have children â?? and nothing seems to satisfy the real struggle with this issue. So â?? I donâ??t know. Part of me wants to give this friend the advice to follow their true identity and find a satisfying relationship â?? but I know the hell that would follow, yet â?? this friend is already in hell. Itâ??s not like alcohol where you can choose to never drink to avoid alcoholism â?? Iâ??m 99% sure my friend will never test the water but they still have to deal with the desire. They still have to deal with not fully loving their spouse and the guilt that comes with that. Iâ??m sure you can imagine all the difficulties of this situation. There are those who can not bear what they are dealing with and choose to act on their desires. There are those who do so in an irresponsible way and those who are responsible in their actions.

People donâ??t usually have success at separating the sin from the sinner. There are sins that seem to speak to the very character of a person â?? how can one separate the sin from the sinner?

(on a personal note --- I have reason to believe that youâ??re Canadian â?? can you confirm or deny?)

[DH]

It seems to me that God doesn't hate sins for some abstract, philosophical reason--He hates sins because they hurt the people He loves so very much, US, His children. Likewise, if someone I love gets involved in, say, drugs or extramarital sex, I hate the sin because it hurts the person I love.

We aren't supposed to hate the sin BUT love the sinner, but rather, we're supposed to hate the sin BECAUSE we love the sinner.

Daniel

[Hammer]

It seems to me that God doesn't hate sins for some abstract, philosophical reason--He hates sins because they hurt the people He loves so very much, US, His children. Likewise, if someone I love gets involved in, say, drugs or extramarital sex, I hate the sin because it hurts the person I love.

We aren't supposed to hate the sin BUT love the sinner, but rather, we're supposed to hate the sin BECAUSE we love the sinner.

Daniel

So we love the sinner and in that love we persist in demeaning the sin, denouncing the sin, disposing of the sin, decminating the sin etc. (yes--this was a very harsh aliteration against sin.)

Can we truly love the sinner and stand idly by okaying it in a mock love called tolerance?

[Zoidberg]

Well then â?? we are back to the question â??What is sin?â? You make it sound like anyone who has a problem with the phrase â??hate the sin and love the sinnerâ? is willing to let any activity that anyone deems appropriate into their living room. Iâ??m not talking about â??unconditional acceptanceâ? either. If my husband or son or any member of the family turned out to a child molester â?? theyâ??re out. Do I hate the sin? You bet I do â?? do I love the sinner? Well â?? thereâ??s a definite part of that person that I hate. Where do you separate the sin from the sinner? To me â?? thatâ??s the extreme of it that can always come into play to make others see how someone can and should hate the sin. Without going down the road of the extremes of the illegal behaviours like drug abuse and child molestation, etc., (I think society has determined theyâ??re sins). Admittedly both extremes can be used to find a supposed winner for this argument. Iâ??m more interested in finding understanding in the middle ground. So again, the other question â??who determines what sin is?â?

I think if someone molested my nonexisting children or killed my whole family I would want to hunt them down and subject them to an extremely slow and painful death. However, I do not think I would be justified in doing that. That's why I'm against capital punishment even for people who commit really heinous crimes. There is this ideal of love for everybody that we will never reach in mortal life, but why not try, at least?

I think people are getting too hung up on tolerance. Tolerance is not always the answer. I think people who are denouncing tolerance should look into value pluralism. It's a much better way to understanding, IMHO.