Christ Was A Man And Became A God?

[Zakuska]

Sure thing Johnny... but first this from the article... for rocmonkey as well...

The Septuagint translation is significant in that it gives us a clue to the time period in which the Massorites altered the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. When the Septuagint was first translated, the names of God in Psalm 110 were left untranslated as Yhvh, showing that the Massorites had not yet changed Jehovah to Adonay. This fact indicates that the Massorites did not begin to tamper with the text until some time after 250 B.C. It is highly probable that the Massoritic Levites began tampering with the Old Testament text during the period from 250 to 200 B.C., provoking God’s anger and precipitating the invasion of Antiochus Epiphanes in 167 B.C.

...

In the book of Psalms, the Massorites altered several such passages. These passages reveal the existence of two divine Beings and show that both divine Beings were named Jehovah. In all but one of these passages, the name Adonay was substituted for Jehovah in one or more verses. Originally, all of these verses added to the evidence that there were two Jehovahs and that these Jehovahs would someday establish a Father/Son relationship.

In spite of the alterations in these passages in the Psalms, the truth of Scripture has been preserved. Evidence of the existence of two Jehovahs can be found in Psalms 2, 16, 22, 89, 90, 110 and 118. As Psalm 110 contains the most obvious reference to two Jehovahs, let us first examine this psalm.

The above Pslams reveals two Jehovahs.

“The LORD [Hebrew Jehovah] said unto my Lord [Hebrew Adon, the Messiah], Sit Thou [the Messiah] at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool

. The LORD [Hebrew Jehovah] shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion: rule Thou [the Messiah] in the midst of Thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: Thou [the Messiah] hast the dew of Thy youth. The LORD [Hebrew Jehovah] hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [the Messiah] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek

“ (Psa. 110:1-4).

http://www.cbcg.org/2jehovahs_psa2.htm

[Doctor Steuss]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

John 17 also spells out that the Father dwelt in the Son, how do you interpret this?

John.17

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John.10

[30] I and my Father are one.

[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

I imagine he would interpret it by switching the bolding a bit:

John.17

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

As for John 10... he might include verse 34-37.

But, then again, maybe not.

BTW,

I'll take care of your response so you don't have to bother with my post:

Doctor Steuss,

The Bible does not reveal two Gods like Joseph Smith taught. The Catholic church is consistent with scripture. My interpretation is consistent with scripture. The Mormon church is not consistent with scripture.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

John 17 also spells out that the Father dwelt in the Son, how do you interpret this?

John.17

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John.10

[30] I and my Father are one.

[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Ok so do the Father and the Son dwell in us? BTW thanks Dr. Steuss nothing wrong with the boldning.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

The above Pslams reveals two Jehovahs.

Two Jehovah's is NOT the same as the Mormon teaching that Elohim and Jehovha are two seperate and distinct Gods.

[johnny]

Doctor Steuss,

I imagine he would interpret it by switching the bolding a bit:

I would agree "that they also may be one in us", the fact remains that "Father, art in me, and I in thee".

As for John 10... he might include verse 34-37.

Even if you include verses 34-37, the fact remains that "the Father is in me, and I in him."

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Ok so do the Father and the Son dwell in us? BTW thanks Dr. Steuss nothing wrong with the boldning.

The Father and the Son can dwell in us (John 14:23).

John.14

[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

[Zakuska]

You missed the part about... US in THEM.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Zakuska,

Two Jehovah's is NOT the same as the Mormon teaching that Elohim and Jehovha are two seperate and distinct Gods.

Time for some silly one-line responses!

Uh.... Ever heard of the concept of a name\title?

Oops! Guess there are more than one God afterall.

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Two Jehovah's is NOT the same as the Mormon teaching that Elohim and Jehovha are two seperate and distinct Gods.

Sure it is... If you seen one Jehovah you've seen them all.

It also buries the notion that... "the Bible cannot be shown to have ever changed, by anyone."

[Doctor Steuss]

Doctor Steuss,

I would agree "that they also may be one in us", the fact remains that "Father, art in me, and I in thee".

Even if you include verses 34-37, the fact remains that "the Father is in me, and I in him."

And we are to be in Them. We are to be one "even as they are one."

The fact remains...

[LifeOnaPlate]

Man, we already went through all that John 17 stuff, earlier on page 4, where Joseph Smith was quoted:

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost

are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow--three in one, and

one in three! It is a curious organization. "Father, I pray not for the

world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me " "Holy Father, keep

through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one

as we are." All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism.

It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully

big God--he would be a giant or a monster. (TPJS, p. 372; cf. John 17:9-11, 20-21; also cf. WJS, p. 380)

Greetings, Hick Lurker.

[Hick Preacher]

In some sence there are three that are Jehovah. If one stated the situation in earthly terms- NOT considering the person's ultimate source, there are three Jehovahs, because three persons are precieived.. The Father is the being Jehovah, the Son is the being Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost is the being Jehovah.

For example--

Matt 1:20-23

With

Psalm 2:7

Then Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost thus the Holy Ghost is Jehovah and Jesus' Father.

And Jesus who is Jehovah is also the Holy Ghost too

John 14:16-18 16

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[Zakuska]

Lets read some more Pslams...

The following verses continue the prophetic description of this Adon Who would become the Messiah. Notice especially Verse 5. In this verse, the Hebrew name Yhvh, or Jehovah, in the original Hebrew text was changed by the Massorites to read Adonay.

“The Lord [Hebrew Adonay, originally Jehovah, referring to the Messiah] at Thy [the first Jehovah’s] right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath. He [Jehovah, the Messiah] shall judge among the heathen, He shall fill the places with the dead bodies; He shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall He lift up the head” (Psa. 110:5-7).

Verse 5 in the original Hebrew text clearly shows two Jehovahs! This key verse in Psalm 110 identifies the Adon in Verse 1 as a second Jehovah. The context reveals that this Jehovah/Adon sitting at the right hand of the first Jehovah is the Messiah. The recorded words of Jesus Christ Himself attest to this very fact.

How Christ Interpreted Psalm 110

No interpretation of Psalm 110 is more authoritative than the Scriptural record of the words spoken by Jesus Christ. He was the promised Messiah about Whom the psalm was written. What did Psalm 110 mean to Christ? How did He interpret the words, “The Lord said unto my Lord”?

Let us examine the exact words of Jesus Christ as Matthew was inspired to record them, and then look at the accounts in the Gospels of Mark and Luke.

Matthew’s Gospel, written in Greek for Greek-speaking Christians at Jerusalem ca. 50 A.D., quotes Christ as stating that the psalmist David wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. Thus Psalm 110 carries the full authority of inspired Scripture! This psalm is not the mere musing of an uneducated shepherd boy who had become king of Israel. Psalm 110 expresses the very thoughts and words of God Himself.

In Christ’s quotation of Psalm 110 in the Gospel of Matthew, we find the Greek word Kurios, or Lord, used in place of the Old Testament name Jehovah. The Greek word Kurios, the equivalent of Jehovah, is also used in place of the name Adon. Here is New Testament confirmation that the name Jehovah applies equally to the Adon in Verse 1 of Psalm 110!

This use of Kurios in the Gospel of Matthew verifies the accuracy of Psalm 110 as written by David in the original Hebrew text. It was no slip of the pen when David described the divine Being in Verse 5 of Psalm 110 as “The Jehovah at Thy right hand.” Matthew’s record of Christ’s words shows that David correctly named the divine Being sitting to the right of Jehovah as another Jehovah. Jesus’ own words reveal that this Jehovah Who sits at the right hand of the first Jehovah is the Son of Jehovah. Here are the words of Christ Himself as recorded by Matthew:

“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose Son is He? They say unto Him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in Spirit call Him Lord [Greek Kurios, equivalent to Hebrew Jehovah], saying, The Lord [Greek Kurios, or Jehovah the Father] said unto my Lord [Greek Kurios, or Jehovah the Son], Sit Thou [the Son] on My right hand, till I [the Father] make Thine enemies Thy footstool? If David then call Him Lord [Greek Kurios, or Jehovah], how is He [the Messiah] his Son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions” (Mat. 22:41-46).

The Jews of Jesus’ day could not answer Jesus’ question because they were blinded to the truth that is revealed in Psalm 110. They had been misled by their religious leaders into believing that Jehovah was the name of a single divine Being. They were convinced that there was only one Jehovah in the entire Old Testament. After all, that was the teaching of the scribes and Pharisees. These religious leaders claimed that there could never be more than one divine Being. They viewed the prophesied Messiah strictly as a national deliverer and a physical descendant of King David.

When we read Jesus’ statements concerning Psalm 110 in the Gospel of Mark, we find an accompanying warning from Jesus to be on guard against the doctrine of the scribes. Why? Because they denied the revealed truth of Scripture! They had blinded their eyes to the two Jehovahs of Psalm 110 and other Old Testament passages. While they professed to worship the God of Scripture, the scribes had long ago turned to a religion of “strict monotheism.” It was the rigid monotheistic tradition of Judaism that led them to reject the truth that the prophesied Messiah (the very Jesus standing before them) was known as Jehovah in the Old Testament. They could not answer Jesus’ question concerning the second Kurios in Psalm 110 because they did not want to admit that the Scriptures revealed two Jehovahs. Notice Jesus’ words and warning:

“And Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD [Greek Kurios, Jehovah the Father] said to my Lord [Greek Kurios, Jehovah the Son] Sit Thou [the Son] on My right hand, till I [the Father] make Thine enemies Thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth Him Lord [Greek Kurios, or Jehovah]; and whence is He then his Son? And the common people heard him gladly. And He said unto them in His doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: which devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation [heavier judgment]” (Mark 12:35-40).

http://www.cbcg.org/2jehovahs_psa2.htm

The more I learn... the more the modern day evangelical/catholic christians sound like the Scribes and the Pharisees?!!!!

[T-Shirt]

In his essence as God, that is true. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.

So, in some ways, Jesus has changed. Thanks for that admission.

So, God is a liar now, eh?

Hear ye, hear ye, the Almighty Zak has just called God a liar, thereby making himself the Almighty.

Paul, when one has no response, it does little for his credibility to resort to mocking the one who asked the question.

T-Shirt

[T-Shirt]

In some sence there are three that are Jehovah. If one stated the situation in earthly terms- NOT considering the person's ultimate source, there are three Jehovahs, because three persons are precieived.

Would you, then, also agree with this statement?:

In some sence there are three that are God. If one stated the situation in earthly terms- NOT considering the person's ultimate source, there are three God's, because three persons are precieived.

T-Shirt

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

The Father and the Son can dwell in us (John 14:23).

John.14

[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I agree. But what I dont get is were you all of the sudden get the idea that the Father and Sons relationship means that they arent distinct and separate. The scriptures seem to indicate that we will be one with them as the Father is one with the Son. Im not seeing were in teh Scriptures it says the Father and the Son are not distinct. Im confused once again. I guess its easy to confuse me. Forgive my weakness.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In some sence there are three that are Jehovah. If one stated the situation in earthly terms- NOT considering the person's ultimate source, there are three Jehovahs, because three persons are precieived.. The Father is the being Jehovah, the Son is the being Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost is the being Jehovah.

For example--

Matt 1:20-23

With

Psalm 2:7

Then Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost thus the Holy Ghost is Jehovah and Jesus' Father.

And Jesus who is Jehovah is also the Holy Ghost too

John 14:16-18 16

Were does it say. " Jesus was begotten by the HG"?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Man, we already went through all that John 17 stuff, earlier on page 4, where Joseph Smith was quoted:

Greetings, Hick Lurker.

Yeah I noticed that it was cover already. I thought 2nd time was a charm. Actually I thought Hick was being nce to dialoug in this thread. You should be a little more nice to him.

[johnny]

LifeOnaPlate,

Uh.... Ever heard of the concept of a name\title?

Oops! Guess there are more than one God afterall.

Please explain how can "there are more than one God afterall" ... is Elohim a different God than Jehovah?

[Zakuska]

According to Pslams 110 and Christs interpretation of it he is.

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

I agree. But what I dont get is were you all of the sudden get the idea that the Father and Sons relationship means that they arent distinct and separate.

All along I have said that the Father and the Son are distinct "persons", "persons" in that both have their own distint will. The Son tells the Father "thy will be done".

Im not seeing were in teh Scriptures it says the Father and the Son are not distinct. Im confused once again. I guess its easy to confuse me. Forgive my weakness.

The Father and the Son are NOT distinct God's, in other words there are NOT two Gods. The Apostle Paul DOES NOT says "two Gods, Paul tells us "there is none other God but one ... one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ".

[johnny]

Zakuska,

According to Pslams 110 and Christs interpretation of it he is.

According to Psalm 110 and Christ's interpretation their are two Lord's.

Neither Psalm 110 or Christ's interpretation support the Mormon teaching that Elohim and Jehovha are seperate Gods.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

All along I have said that the Father and the Son are distinct "persons", "persons" in that both have their own distint will. The Son tells the Father "thy will be done".

The Father and the Son are NOT distinct God's, in other words there are NOT two Gods. The Apostle Paul DOES NOT says "two Gods, Paul tells us "there is none other God but one ... one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ".

How in the ruddy world did Stephen the martyr see Jesus standing on the right hand of God I ask ya!

[johnny]

LifeOnaPlate,

How in the ruddy world did Stephen the martyr see Jesus standing on the right hand of God I ask ya!

Stephen saw the Glory of God and the Son. Paul tells us "there is none other God but one ... one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ".

When Stephen called upon God, he said Lord Jesus.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

All along I have said that the Father and the Son are distinct "persons", "persons" in that both have their own distint will. The Son tells the Father "thy will be done".

The Father and the Son are NOT distinct God's, in other words there are NOT two Gods. The Apostle Paul DOES NOT says "two Gods, Paul tells us "there is none other God but one ... one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ".

I guess we are at an impass. Fine the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. I agree with that. What does that mean? This passage does nothing to strengthen your postion. In fact it seems to make them very much separate. One is God the other is Lord.

Can I pray to the HG. If so were in the scriptures does it say that I can?

LifeOnaPlate,

Stephen saw the Glory of God and the Son. Paul tells us "there is none other God but one ... one God, the Father ... and one Lord Jesus Christ".

When Stephen called upon God, he said Lord Jesus.

What about at Jesus baptism. There was Jesus and a voice that said," Behold my Son in whom I am well pleased". And the HG was shown in the form of a dove. Was Jesus a vantrilliquist?