Functional Age Of Accountability

[Noodle]

In the united states, when a child is 18 they can move out and do whatever they want to as long as it's legal. A parent can try to control their children as much as they like until that time and many of the LDS that I know do. I have nieces and nephews that tell their parents that they don't want to go to seminary, or church but the parent forces them to. Those parents that force seminary and all the other religiuos stuff on them have kids that more frequently rebel the most. I also have a Cousin in law that is very wealthy. He gives a lot of money to his adult children. He continues to use his financial influence to control the spirituality of his adult children. Should a child be forced to go to seminary at 14? 17? Since the child will legally be 100% in control if they want to at 18, I believe we should slowly give them more and more control from a young age, until they are nearly 100% in control by 16 and 17. That way they will not go wild the day they turn 18.

So really should a 14 year old be forced to go to seminary? At what age do you say a child can make their own decisions on religion?

[Tsuzuki]

"I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

[seriously honestly]

In the united states, when a child is 18 they can move out and do whatever they want to as long as it's legal. A parent can try to control their children as much as they like until that time and many of the LDS that I know do. I have nieces and nephews that tell their parents that they don't want to go to seminary, or church but the parent forces them to. Those parents that force seminary and all the other religiuos stuff on them have kids that more frequently rebel the most. I also have a Cousin in law that is very wealthy. He gives a lot of money to his adult children. He continues to use his financial influence to control the spirituality of his adult children. Should a child be forced to go to seminary at 14? 17? Since the child will legally be 100% in control if they want to at 18, I believe we should slowly give them more and more control from a young age, until they are nearly 100% in control by 16 and 17. That way they will not go wild the day they turn 18.

So really should a 14 year old be forced to go to seminary? At what age do you say a child can make their own decisions on religion?

Im not mormon and i don't have kids, but I've seen some pretty nasty results come from forcing kids to do what their parents want them to do or think is in their best intrest. I think 14 is about right though (not that i think parents should totally let them make all their own decisions at that age, but I think they can start relaxing and do more guiding, instead of trying to control them).

[Calm]

I believe in helping the kid find out their options rather than insisting they follow my solutions for kids that age and let them work out the details with some guidance and encouragement. Much more likely to arrive at a workable and long lasting solution eventually for both if they see it as their problem they have to solve rather than yours.

Spirituality is less, imo, about what you do and more about how you do it (at least for normal, everyday behavior).

For example, if the kid absolutely hates the idea of seminary (I did because of a sleep disorder I didn't know about then so I went independent study a couple of years), then ask them to come up with something that fulfills at least a similar goal---perhaps independent study or a personal research project on some doctrinal issue or if they are completely off the religious study aspect, taking the same amount of time that would be devoted to seminary and do volunteer work.

If you help them explore enough options and give them a time limit to come up with an acceptable one, you just may find that they end up going to seminary because it's less work than coming up with something original on their own time, lol.

How you go about this 'owning the problem' method depends on the age of the kid, but it can be started at a young age, you just tend to be the one providing options when they are younger and as they grow older, they'll be the ones thinking of alternative ways and negotiating them with you.

[SquarePeg48]

I would say that it depends entirely upon the child and their maturity in other respects. Each of my children has been unique, and I have found that what I can do with one I cannot do with another. For instance, of my 10 children, at least 3 have been, in my view, too immature to trust with a driver's license at age 16, and so I didn't sign for them to have it. So with each of my children, if they make the choice to not go to church, I take into account how much of that decision is a mature, reasoned one, and how much is just a desire to be rebellious and fight with me. I also take into account how responsible they are in school, with friends, and so on...so I am saying there is no one age that can be said they are ready to make a responsible choice about the church.

[jadams_4242]

In the united states, when a child is 18 they can move out and do whatever they want to as long as it's legal. A parent can try to control their children as much as they like until that time and many of the LDS that I know do. I have nieces and nephews that tell their parents that they don't want to go to seminary, or church but the parent forces them to. Those parents that force seminary and all the other religiuos stuff on them have kids that more frequently rebel the most. I also have a Cousin in law that is very wealthy. He gives a lot of money to his adult children. He continues to use his financial influence to control the spirituality of his adult children. Should a child be forced to go to seminary at 14? 17? Since the child will legally be 100% in control if they want to at 18, I believe we should slowly give them more and more control from a young age, until they are nearly 100% in control by 16 and 17. That way they will not go wild the day they turn 18.

So really should a 14 year old be forced to go to seminary? At what age do you say a child can make their own decisions on religion?

Whoever said anything in raising kids is easy? Every case is differant and every parent needs to

be wise in there decision making. And its tuff.

[Noodle]

For some reason this thread doesn't appear to be all that popular. Should I assume that the overwhelming silence means that most LDS do coerce their children to attend and know, that most people need to be coerced into mormonism, because of it's unbelievable nature. Please don't challenge me on the unbelievable nature part, because it is an incredibley improbable spectacular thing to say I saw God, along with all the other miraculous things that are said to have happened the first 15-30 years of Mormonism. The LDS people want to give their children free agency after all that is one of the base principles established in the pre-existence, it just doesn't happen due however they know that free agency would mean inevitable dis-belief for the majority. So I believe they are torn inside, but go along with the forcing of religion anyway, but feel bad about it and therefore are silent on this thread.

[Aluwid]

Should I assume that the overwhelming silence means that most LDS do coerce their children to attend and know, that most people need to be coerced into mormonism, because of it's unbelievable nature.

Sometimes people don't respond to threads because they simply aren't that interested in the topic. Or it's been rehashed so many times that it gets old. This whole idea that religion has to be handled differently from the other things that you teach your children has been dealt with a number of times. Long story short, your kids don't get to choose whether or not they'll go to school until they are 18. Some people take the same viewpoint on church, others don't. Check the archives if you want to hear their reasons.

[MJNSW]

I always let my children have their own choices in matters... and we discuss things to see if it is a sound decision or not.

[Calm]

For some reason this thread doesn't appear to be all that popular. Should I assume that the overwhelming silence means that most LDS do coerce their children to attend and know, that most people need to be coerced into mormonism, because of it's unbelievable nature....

Or it could be the dismissive way you've approached our beliefs and opinions and indulge in mindreading our deepest, darkest fears and delusions. Why respond to someone who feels this way and indicates they have no intention of changing their mind no matter what one says (as in "please don't challenge me....")

[BCSpace]

If a child wants to continue living in my house, he or she must be baptised, confirmed, receive the priesthood (if male), go to Church on Sunday (whole block), attend FHE on Monday, go to mutual on Tuesday and attend Cemetary (term of endearment for early morning Seminary) when age appropriate. A mission is totally up to them.

Of course, in order to never have to put it in those terms (and I haven't had to yet), one must also provide the proper example.........

[Legalbryan]

For some reason this thread doesn't appear to be all that popular. Should I assume that the overwhelming silence means that most LDS do coerce their children to attend and know, that most people need to be coerced into mormonism, because of it's unbelievable nature. Please don't challenge me on the unbelievable nature part, because it is an incredibley improbable spectacular thing to say I saw God, along with all the other miraculous things that are said to have happened the first 15-30 years of Mormonism. The LDS people want to give their children free agency after all that is one of the base principles established in the pre-existence, it just doesn't happen due however they know that free agency would mean inevitable dis-belief for the majority. So I believe they are torn inside, but go along with the forcing of religion anyway, but feel bad about it and therefore are silent on this thread.

You loose the thread.

[BCSpace]

I think Noodle's functional misunderstanding is that having agency means one is not subject to consequences or that one should not apply consequences in order to show the way.

[rpn]

Depends on what you mean by force. Living the Gospel is our family expectation. Sure people can "choose" but if they make bad judgment calls, Mom and Dad cannot trust them to make other good judgment calls. Any child would see that as force (can't go to the dance if I didn't making it to FHE, or seminary?), though parents do not.

If you are not living under my roof and depending on me for your sustenance, then you can choose whatever your little heart desires. (And we try to prepare you to be independent as soon as you graduate from HS. Until then, we will do what can to teach you the love of God and his commandments, and we will expect you to adopt the lifestyle, though you may choose whether you do these things grudgingly or with joy.

If you are living at home after you turn eighteen, you still have to attend church each week, but if you want to attend a different church, that is perfectly okay.

[Noodle]

Depends on what you mean by force. Living the Gospel is our family expectation. Sure people can "choose" but if they make bad judgment calls, Mom and Dad cannot trust them to make other good judgment calls. Any child would see that as force (can't go to the dance if I didn't making it to FHE, or seminary?), though parents do not.

If you are not living under my roof and depending on me for your sustenance, then you can choose whatever your little heart desires. (And we try to prepare you to be independent as soon as you graduate from HS. Until then, we will do what can to teach you the love of God and his commandments, and we will expect you to adopt the lifestyle, though you may choose whether you do these things grudgingly or with joy.

If you are living at home after you turn eighteen, you still have to attend church each week, but if you want to attend a different church, that is perfectly okay.

It's interesting that some people don't try to hide the fact that they run an authoritarian home. In my extended family I have really seen this backfire on the parents time and again. The children don't learn to be independent from this kind of iron fisted ruling. It just makes them go under ground so to speak with their testing of the waters. I wonder if the poster above if they have made their kids aware that they can go to another church. What about another seminary?

[rpn]

Absolutely, and one of them decided that the hour long catholic mass at the nearby church was much more to his liking. I don't see this as authoritarian at all (and neither do my kids, who are adopted and much prefer the fruit of the spirit in this home than the many they experienced where the gospel wasn't known and the behavior expectations weren't high).

[katherine the great]

Human brains aren't usually fully developed until they are in their early twenties. This is why it makes me crazy when I see a thirteen or fourteen year old charged as an adult in the criminal justice system (which happens sometimes.) They aren't adults and don't think like adults. I don't know how a parent can force their child to attend Seminary, but I think Cal's idea of giving them other options for their religious education is good. They need to receive a religious education, but should have some freedom in how they receive it.

[koakaipo]

In the united states, when a child is 18 they can move out and do whatever they want to as long as it's legal. A parent can try to control their children as much as they like until that time and many of the LDS that I know do. I have nieces and nephews that tell their parents that they don't want to go to seminary, or church but the parent forces them to. Those parents that force seminary and all the other religiuos stuff on them have kids that more frequently rebel the most. I also have a Cousin in law that is very wealthy. He gives a lot of money to his adult children. He continues to use his financial influence to control the spirituality of his adult children. Should a child be forced to go to seminary at 14? 17? Since the child will legally be 100% in control if they want to at 18, I believe we should slowly give them more and more control from a young age, until they are nearly 100% in control by 16 and 17. That way they will not go wild the day they turn 18.

So really should a 14 year old be forced to go to seminary? At what age do you say a child can make their own decisions on religion?

Is it considered coercion when people force their kids to go to school? Does it have to be so traumatic necessarily either if a kid has to go to seminary or church until they leave their family's house and strike out on their own?

I think it can be traumatic if parents really deal with the issue in a threatening manner. But I don't think anything is wrong with a parent explaining to a kid that it's one of the house rules and they would like them to respect that. I had a sister who stopped believing in church around 16, but didn't give my parents a hassle about it while she was still at home.

I think there should be respect from the parents to respect each child's growing sense of self in various ways. But I think there should be respect on the child's part too to respect the parents beliefs as well. It goes both ways.

[katherine the great]

I think there should be respect from the parents to respect each child's growing sense of self in various ways. But I think there should be respect on the child's part too to respect the parents beliefs as well. It goes both ways.

Indeed.

[captain-jack]

I remember my Mom's attitude when I was in seminary. Being in Utah it was at the high school and it was during the day, I'm lucky for that. I used to skip it, or skirt out early to go to lunch or something. Then one day my Mom found out about it. She looked me in the eye, had that quiet disappointment, and said she really wanted me to go but knows she can't force me. I finished seminary from then on.

[jerryp48]

So long as I'm their parent my kids will be taught my values.

At age eight they are old enough to choose to follow Christ.

Should they choose a different path when they're older so be it but I've done what I can do to instill good values and citizenship into them when they were young.

Bottom line. Be a parent.

[Noodle]

Absolutely, and one of them decided that the hour long catholic mass at the nearby church was much more to his liking. I don't see this as authoritarian at all (and neither do my kids, who are adopted and much prefer the fruit of the spirit in this home than the many they experienced where the gospel wasn't known and the behavior expectations weren't high).

I am 40 and have 5 daughters 11 and under. We do have high expectations for our daughters. We expect them to do well in school. We are teaching them to be independent and think for themselves. We expect good grades. We expect them to be honest, and to be charitable. Our kids enjoy feelings of love peace and happiness (A mormon might call this fruits of the spirit). My kids are learning that all people have. They are not being taught that they are better people because of their skin, or attraction to certain kinds of people. They don't think they are better because they are "peculiar people". They don't think they are Chosen people. They feel bad when they hurt others, and are learning how to say sorry. They don't feel guilty for doing things that are natural, they do feel guilty when they do something that affects others. Call me crazy but they seem to be growing up healthy and happy with much more time to spend with their family on Sunday's enjoying eachother and learning from eachother, all without a magic world view.

Why do religionists believe they need the supernatural to be moral people, or have high standards, or high expectations?

[katherine the great]

Why do religionists believe they need the supernatural to be moral people, or have high standards, or high expectations?

Because they believe that all those good qualities come from God, whether we believe in God or not. Therefore, without the supernatural (God), those things do not exist.

[Noodle]

Because they believe that all those good qualities come from God, whether we believe in God or not. Therefore, without the supernatural (God), those things do not exist.

That sounds a lot like my magic elephant rock. As long as I hold my rock I never see an elephant. Once I left it at home on accident, and on a trip to the zoo I saw one. so I know my elephant rock really works.

Honestly I have seen good and bad in homes with and without faith.

[Thinking]

I am 40 and have 5 daughters 11 and under. We do have high expectations for our daughters. We expect them to do well in school. We are teaching them to be independent and think for themselves. We expect good grades. We expect them to be honest, and to be charitable. Our kids enjoy feelings of love peace and happiness (A mormon might call this fruits of the spirit). My kids are learning that all people have. They are not being taught that they are better people because of their skin, or attraction to certain kinds of people. They don't think they are better because they are "peculiar people". They don't think they are Chosen people. They feel bad when they hurt others, and are learning how to say sorry. They don't feel guilty for doing things that are natural, they do feel guilty when they do something that affects others. Call me crazy but they seem to be growing up healthy and happy with much more time to spend with their family on Sunday's enjoying eachother and learning from eachother, all without a magic world view.

Why do religionists believe they need the supernatural to be moral people, or have high standards, or high expectations?

I grew up in Southern California. My mother would often say things like, "They think they're happy, but they're not "truly happy" because they don't have the gospel." I heard it enough times (from other LDS as well) that I began to believe that the rest of the world was in this state of "fake happiness" because they were not LDS.