Hyrum And Joseph's Last Words

[jerryp48]

I read for the first time (no surprise there) that IIRC Hyrum and/or Joseph's last words at Carthage jail was a Freemason's distress call as opposed to a prayer.

This is not a post for sensational effect I'm simply being too lazy to research it and wanting someone in the know to set me straight on the matter.

[Alf O'Mega]

I read for the first time (no surprise there) that IIRC Hyrum and/or Joseph's last words at Carthage jail was a Freemason's distress call as opposed to a prayer.

This is not a post for sensational effect I'm simply being too lazy to research it and wanting someone in the know to set me straight on the matter.

Check out this thread.

[Calm]

No Help for the Widow's Son

I spoke to Br. Reed C. Durham who gave the speech3 in 1974 that got everybody so excited (and invited him here but he was unable to attend).

The Death of Joseph Smith I use this picture not because it's historically accurate, because it is somewhat ridiculous actually; it's a Currier & Ives print. But it's interesting that we have a man in tails and a top hat, symbols usually of a Grand Master, attempting to arrest the ruffian who was about to take a knife to Joseph who was laying on the ground here, this of course is absolute fiction and nothing like this happened but it's an interesting portrayal.

Joseph was killed and as he fell from the window he gave what's called the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress and its name, which is "Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's son?"

Joseph was- of course it didn't work. You're supposed to give to and give aid to a fellow Mason who gives this and they didn't do it. Masonry, like any other human endeavor has its good moments and its bad moments and this is one of our not very good ones. Latter-day Saints are no better, we killed people at Mountain Meadows for not a very good reason other than they just happened to be passing through. But no, we are made up of men, we're not immortals. We don't- it doesn't endow us with some sort of special power to be better than any other man.

The murder was not, as some have suggested, a Masonic plot. It was plotted in public meetings in Warsaw, Illinois. It's interesting, as a Latter-day Saint Freemason I get it from all sides. The Ed Deckers of the world are doubly convinced that I'm going to hell because I'm both a Mormon and a Mason and my fellow Latter-day Saints, some of them are convinced that I've taken up with the Gadianton Robbers, and the Bishop should take my Temple recommend away and I will address that here in a bit. But, it was not a Masonic plot, as have some Latter-day Saints have suggested in the past.

Masons were involved and that's quite true and the Warsaw Lodge invites indicted men to join after the murder; there were men under indictment for murder of Joseph Smith and they invite them to join. Grand Master Jonas doesn't like this and it breaks two principles. First of all, when you join a Lodge you're supposed to be a man of reputation in your community--you're not supposed to be a drunkard, you're not supposed to beat your wife, all those kinds of things--and in fact in kind of a- imagine having a temple recommend interview and instead of the Bishop sitting you down and asking you the ten questions they send a committee of investigation out to all your neighbors to ask you. You know, should we give this guy a temple recommend? That's what Masons do. They set up committees and the committees go and talk to your neighbors and talk to your co-workers and talk to your boss to find out if you're a respectable citizen or not. So the Warsaw Lodge violates that principle by having indicted men.

The other thing that they break is, you will never be invited to join a Masonic Lodge. You ask to join. So inviting men to join is a violation of one of the Landmarks (I can't remember which one) there are some Masons in the crowd who probably can remember. And so after a spell, eventually with all these kind of irregularities going on, Grand Master Jonas pulls the charter of the Warsaw Lodge--it's the only event surrounding the death of Joseph Smith in which any kind of action was taken against those.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...reemasonry.html

[charity]

Hyrum's last words were, "I am a dead man."

Joseph's last words were "Oh Lord, my God."

Why wouldn't a man who had been the Lord's prophet for most of his life call out to Him in his final moments?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I read for the first time (no surprise there) that IIRC Hyrum and/or Joseph's last words at Carthage jail was a Freemason's distress call as opposed to a prayer.

This is not a post for sensational effect I'm simply being too lazy to research it and wanting someone in the know to set me straight on the matter.

Hyrum's "I am a dead man" doesn't really fit the description, now, does it?

It is possible it was the distress call, it certainly was at least the beginning of the call: "Oh Lord, my God" ...(Is there no hope, or help? for the widows son, I believe is the end of it.) Perhaps Joseph knew there were fellow Masons in the mob.

At any rate, I think Joseph was aware all his work was done, and calling on the Lord for protection wouldn't avail him if his purpose was to die a martyr.

By the way, re: "no surprise there." In mortality don't we hear everything for what seems on the surface to be the first time? I was unaware of any other method of acquiring information.

[ERMD]

What difference does it make?

[Nephi]

This gives a really good opinion on the matter. I think its very important to understand here, that we not being part of the situation have no idea what he was saying or quoting. Its all speculation, and really doesn't matter when its all said and done. I mean, so what if he was calling out a masonic distress call? He was a mason (lol). Does this mean that he put freemasonry ahead of his duties as a prophet? Not at all...

[jerryp48]

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...reemasonry.html

Thanks for the reference calmoriah.

By the way, re: "no surprise there." In mortality don't we hear everything for what seems on the surface to be the first time? I was unaware of any other method of acquiring information.

Cute but I think you know what I meant.

What difference does it make?

Just trying to understand who Joseph was addressing in his last moment. Only makes a difference if I'm teaching the GD class.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Cute but I think you know what I meant.

itchy trigger finger this morning.

[jerryp48]

Hyrum's last words were, "I am a dead man."

Joseph's last words were "Oh Lord, my God."

Why wouldn't a man who had been the Lord's prophet for most of his life call out to Him in his final moments?

Well said charity. That's what I was taught and thats what I believe. Calmoriah's reference suggests otherwise.

[jerryp48]

Check out this thread.

Thanks for this. Sorry I missed it at first.

Since he didn't get time to complete the call it's not 100% clear that it was a masonic distress call but someone must have seen him raise his hands in the correct way.

The footnote to "O Lord My God" in D&C 135: 1 is a follows:

Ps. 38: 21 (21-22).

21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me.

Ps. 71: 12.

12 O God, be not far from me: O my God, make haste for my help.

Maybe he was doing both prayer and call in the interest of time.

I have no problem with it. I'm just enjoying learning more details.

[ERMD]

[ErikJohnson]

Its all speculation, and really doesn't matter when its all said and done. I mean, so what if he was calling out a masonic distress call? He was a mason (lol).

Presumably it would matter quite a lot. If a man reveals, in his final moments, that his faith is in an idol (e.g., the Masonic "great architect of the universe")...

--Erik

[ERMD]

Presumably it would matter quite a lot. If a man reveals, in his final moments, that his faith is in an idol (e.g., the Masonic "great architect of the universe")...

--Erik

[LifeOnaPlate]

Presumably it would matter quite a lot. If a man reveals, in his final moments, that his faith is in an idol (e.g., the Masonic "great architect of the universe")...

--Erik

I don't see how the statement of Joseph Smith, Jr. as he fell out of the window at Carthage Jail amounts to "putting his faith in an idol," as you seem to imply he didn't believe in God, or that he was somehow admitting some secret as he died. Can you further substantiate your comment?

Thanks.

Let it be stated it has already been mentioned on this thread that Joseph knew his time was up, and he was, essentially, living on "borrowed time."

[Mormon Vader]

You know how some kids say, "If my parents find out about this, I am a dead man."

Think about that when reading Hyrum's last words...he was freaking out before meeting

God, because he was realizing it's time to pony up.

[selek]

You know how some kids say, "If my parents find out about this, I am a dead man."

Think about that when reading Hyrum's last words...he was freaking out before meeting

God, because he was realizing it's time to pony up.

As will nearly everyone of us.

[LifeOnaPlate]

You know how some kids say, "If my parents find out about this, I am a dead man."

Think about that when reading Hyrum's last words...he was freaking out before meeting

God, because he was realizing it's time to pony up.

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen on this board.

[Calm]

You know how some kids say, "If my parents find out about this, I am a dead man."

Think about that when reading Hyrum's last words...he was freaking out before meeting

God, because he was realizing it's time to pony up.

Or he just might have been in shock.

[Deborah]

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen on this board.

And there have been some pretty dumb things on this board.

I have heard that there were masons among the mob and Joseph may indeed have uttered a masonic cry for help, but to assume he or Hyrum were somehow denying their faith or fearful to meet their Maker is just plain ludicrous. I love how people like to attribute motives to dead men who aren't here to explain themselves. It tells more about the person uttering such motives than the men they are describing.

[grego]

Presumably it would matter quite a lot. If a man reveals, in his final moments, that his faith is in an idol (e.g., the Masonic "great architect of the universe")...

Erik,

Have you ever thought/said, in time of emergency or great stress, "Come on car, don't die on me!", "Come on, answer the phone!", "Come on, rope, don't break!", or anything like that? Never?? Well, good job, can't call you a hypocrite, then.

[LifeOnaPlate]

And there have been some pretty dumb things on this board.

I have heard that there were masons among the mob and Joseph may indeed have uttered a masonic cry for help, but to assume he or Hyrum were somehow denying their faith or fearful to meet their Maker is just plain ludicrous. I love how people like to attribute motives to dead men who aren't here to explain themselves. It tells more about the person uttering such motives than the men they are describing.

Agreed. Honestly, I can't even believe Morgbot would advance such a ridiculous statement. Unbelievable.

Erik,

Have you ever thought/said, in time of emergency or great stress, "Come on car, don't die on me!", "Come on, answer the phone!", "Come on, rope, don't break!", or anything like that? Never?? Well, good job, can't call you a hypocrite, then.

I wonder if he's ever said "Oh, CRAP!"

A prayer?

[grego]

I wonder if he's ever said "Oh, CRAP!"

A prayer?

Either he's got one interesting god, or one interesting idol...

[Cold Steel]

Why wouldn't a man who had been the Lord's prophet for most of his life call out to Him in his final moments?

TO seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o'clock p.m., by an armed mob--painted blackâ??of from 150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.

Yes, according to the earliest sources, Thomas, one of the first apostles, the one mistakenly called "The Doubter" also was a Master Mason. When he beheld the resurrected Christ, he, too, declared, "O Lord, my God!" (John 20:28) But wait, others say the expression was a cry of disbelief, or even a cry of surprise, as Daniel Peterson pointed out in his review of Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Mormonism:

Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Mormonism had claimed that Joseph Smith's final cry of "Oh Lord, my God," uttered while jumping from the window of the Carthage Jail and just before his murder by a mob of anti-Mormons, was an "expression of unbelief." I found this assertion incomprehensible, and thought it probably more indicative of Dr. Ankerberg and Dr. Dr. Weldon's deep disdain for everything connected with Mormonism than of Joseph Smith's views. Behind the Mask of Mormonism now says that the exclamation was an "expression of surprise," which seems equally untenable but at least has the minor merit that it does not directly contradict the obvious content of the cry itself. ( John Ankerberg and John Weldon. Behind the Mask of Mormonism. (daniel C. Peterson), FARMS Review of Books, vol. 8, no. 2 (1996))

Every single account of the marytrdom says that Joseph said his last words as he fell through the window. Since everyone wants to play the game of knowing what Joseph was thinking at the time, I believe he had little to expect from the Masons, who already had denounced him because of their view that he had broken his Masonic oaths. When Joseph had just seen his brother shot in the head and killed, I seriously doubt that getting a Masonic distress signal out of his mouth was his first priority. There also is considerable evidence to support that he knew he was going to die. Thus, I find it incredulous that he would have uttered the distress signal as he fell from the window to the mob below. I personally believe it was an address to God.

[wjclerk]

Since we don't have any way of knowing the dying thoughts of a man who died well over 160 years ago, I don't expect we will have any satisfaction on the issue. However, since we are entitled to our own opinions or speculation based on the paradigm we each view issues through, this opinion should be as relevant as any other that has or may be expressed (however, your mileage may vary. See owner's manual for details.)

I believe that from his earliest years onward, Joseph Smith acknowledged that God was in charge when it came to his life. He had trusted to have his life preserved when it was threatened many time before with poison, beatings, exposure, plots against his life, etc. as long as God still had use for him. When God had done as much work through him that Joseph could still do in spite of the opposition Satan would attempt, God would at some point declare the work was enough and call his servant home. The length of time for this ministry was always up to those who would express their agency with a thirst for blood rather than God deciding that Joseph had no further work to do. It has happened the same with the lives of prophets for millennium.

Jesus and other historical prophets have had their ministries ended by men who placed their own judgement and a desire to control the lives or deaths of others in the stead of God, the great judge of all mankind and the only one who can judge based on the thoughts of our hearts. Joseph knew at some point the satanic opposition to the message he brought would overcome his life and he would seal his testimony with his blood. They could kill the messenger, but as so many times had failed before, it would not stop the message.

When Joseph rode with his party out of Nauvoo and towards Carthage, he knew he was going to die. Rather than as a "dead man walking" as we read of capital punishment criminals going to their deaths, he was "calm as a summer's morning." I believe this demonstration of a calm demeanor, reassuring words to those who would be with him during his imprisonment, care for the welfare of the jailer and his family, prophesying of a mission to Wales for Dan Jones that would change his life (if he was so fearful of meeting God or focused on his own death, why do these things?), etc., are evidence to me that Joseph was not fearful for himself, but only concerned for the lives of those with him and saving as many of them as possible.

In a hail of bullets and when the lives of those you care about are in mortal danger, knowing that men are both coming up the stairs behind you and shooting from below you, I doubt that the man Joseph, who had counted on God all his life, would start pondering "how to get the masons in the crowd to stop and help" in the midst of their murderous rage and suddenly rush to his aid just because he said the right words. Rather, I would like to think that his last thoughts were of two things - saving my friends by leading the danger away from them, knowing my enemies will follow me; and committing my soul to God, for my life and my brother's are over.

Surely, such a student of the bible as Joseph could not forget Christ's final words on the cross, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit. It is finished." As the bullets struck him (let's not forget that he was in the ACT of being MURDERED), I would not imagine he would have time to make such a statement as Christ did while suffering from a drawn-out and tortuous death. "Oh Lord, My God," would fit within my reading of the man who had lived his life depending on him for everything, commending his soul to him, and for whom meeting God would only be a reaquaintance - for he had already had a previous meeting 24 years before.

I think the masonic connection is interesting, and I know the connection between the masons and early church leaders. But I don't for a moment believe that a man being killed by a crowd that he knew would not stop until he was dead would seek for help in the form of fellow masons under bloodlust in that very same crowd. I don't think a murderer would stop his actions just because you went to boy scouts together and you start to quote the scout law to him (you're not being friendly, kind, obedient, trustwor. . .)!

Again, the only possible outcome of this discussion will be speculation. Only when we pass into the hereafter will we be able to ask "were you calling out to the masons or thinking something else when you uttered your last words?" When one of us gets there, try to send word back to provide the "final answer" on the subject; assuming one is able to find a working Internet connection in heaven or hell, depending on your personal accommodations! If I "shuffle off," make sure this thread isn't closed!

wjclerk