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How Many Saviors Are Out There In The Multiverse?


kamenraider

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And I heard a great voice bearing record from heav'n,

He's the Saviour and only begotten of God;

By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made,

Even all that career in the heavens so broad.

Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last,

Are sav'd by the very same Saviour of ours; And, of course, are begotten God's daughters and sons

By the very same truths and the very same powers.

--Joseph Smith, The Vision, Times & Seasons Vol. 4, No. 6, pgs. 82-83, Feb. 1, 1843.

It seems that Jesus' atonement has saved other worlds also.

Are only a certain "batch" of spirit children involved? Will Heavenly Father, continuing to have spirit children perpetually, have another batch and choose the firstborn son of that batch as another Savior? This seems to make more sense to me than Him forever stopping His procreation of spirit children at some point, or than having only one Savior for all of His spirit children for eternity, the actual atonement becoming ever more remote as he continues to have them.

Also, is it possible (in light of D&C 132:26) for a person to reach the point where their sins are no longer covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ and need to be paid for by them?

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I think that Father in Heaven has remained silent on these topics for a very good reason.

Suppose that there were other Saviors? You can bet there would be obnoxious twits here on earth trying to worship them and promoting them over our own Savior, despite the fact that their work is completely irrelevant to us. It would be "you worship a different Jesus" in spades.

As for the doctrine of blood atonement in 132:26, the Church cannot destroy people in the flesh and deliver them to the buffetings of Satan unless there is no separation between Church and state. The Church has never imposed blood atonement on anyone for this reason: it would no have no effect unless it was carried out legally under the auspices of the state. So we do not know how the Lord will work things out in times such as the latter days, where there is a separation between church and state.

Consider, though, that the atonement of Christ does not exempt the criminal from the wrath of the state. There are consequences to sin that we must endure in spite of the atonement. These consequences may persist until the final judgment, so that they continue beyond this life into the spirit world.

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Also, is it possible (in light of D&C 132:26) for a person to reach the point where their sins are no longer covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ and need to be paid for by them?

As for the doctrine of blood atonement in 132:26, the Church cannot destroy people in the flesh and deliver them to the buffetings of Satan unless there is no separation between Church and state. The Church has never imposed blood atonement on anyone for this reason: it would no have no effect unless it was carried out legally under the auspices of the state. So we do not know how the Lord will work things out in times such as the latter days, where there is a separation between church and state.

Consider, though, that the atonement of Christ does not exempt the criminal from the wrath of the state. There are consequences to sin that we must endure in spite of the atonement. These consequences may persist until the final judgment, so that they continue beyond this life into the spirit world.

The Church can still deliver a person to the buffetings of satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor. 5:5).

So, anyway cjcampbell, can a person reach the point where their sins are no longer covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ?

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I think that Father in Heaven has remained silent on these topics for a very good reason.

Suppose that there were other Saviors? You can bet there would be obnoxious twits here on earth trying to worship them and promoting them over our own Savior, despite the fact that their work is completely irrelevant to us. It would be "you worship a different Jesus" in spades.

Help me out here a little, please.

LDS doctrine says that the atonement of Jesus ended physical death as an ultimate end, and

thus allows for the inevitability of a resurrection ---- correct?

If so, then that is a physical change in how the world operates (or is operated). How can such a

change in the laws of nature suddenly "end" at, say, the orbit of Mars, or some such place?

If there were a change that diminished gravity by 50%, or that caused uranium 235 to decay twice

as fast, or reduced the speed of light ----- then such a development could not be limited to just

a certain galaxy or a certain star system.

An astronaut travels to a moon of Jupiter and dies there --- could it be that he cannot be resurrected,

because he has exceeded the boundary of Jesus' atonement?

Surely a Mormon GA has said someinthing about this -- maybe in Pratt's The Seer?

UD

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Help me out here a little, please.

LDS doctrine says that the atonement of Jesus ended physical death as an ultimate end, and

thus allows for the inevitability of a resurrection ---- correct?

There were resurrections that took place before the atonement of Jesus on other worlds -- we know that God the Father had been resurrected and that he had a father who was presumably resurrected. I think that each atonement is as extensive as the Fall(s) that it covers, being infinite in the sense that transgressions have chronologically infinite consequences, and when atoned for, the remedy or atonement will be seen as being just as infinite. It's not clear from Joseph Smith's poem whether he regarded "the heavens" as just our galaxy, or our whole universe, but each Fall (and atonement for it) clearly only affects the world that that Fall took place on.

edit: In other words, the boundaries of the atonement aren't geographical in the sense of lines drawn in space, but the atonement is as limited as the Fall(s) it covers and affects each of the pertinent worlds.

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There were resurrections that took place before the atonement of Jesus on other worlds -- we know that God the Father had been resurrected and that he had a father who was presumably resurrected. I think that each atonement is as extensive as the Fall(s) that it covers, being infinite in the sense that transgressions have chronologically infinite consequences, and when atoned for, the remedy or atonement will be seen as being just as infinite. It's not clear from Joseph Smith's poem whether he regarded "the heavens" as just our galaxy, or our whole universe, but each Fall (and atonement for it) clearly only affects the world that that Fall took place on.

edit: In other words, the boundaries of the atonement aren't geographical in the sense of lines drawn in space, but the atonement is as limited as the Fall(s) it covers and affects each of the pertinent worlds.

hmmmmm....

I think I'll just fall back on rabbinic Judaism, and say none of this stuff has any meaning.

I never was a big advocate of resurrection(s) anyway.

UD

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There are no other worlds and no other saviours. The scriptures are very clear on this. Johm 3:16---------God so loved the world.

It does not say worlds

So roman, are you saying that in all of God's creations, in the eternities that He has existed and will exist, that this is the only world that God has created and populated?

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So, anyway cjcampbell, can a person reach the point where their sins are no longer covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ?

All a person has to do for this to happen is to reject Christ as his Saviour.

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So roman, are you saying that in all of God's creations, in the eternities that He has existed and will exist, that this is the only world that God has created and populated?

It is my belief that YES we are the only ones to this date. But in the future say 100000000000000 billion trillion years from now[give or take afew billion trillion years] we will be populating the universe.

Christ is the only saviour that is or was or will be. He alone paid the dead--ONCE and FOR ALL

Just to add Acts 4:12 says that there is no other name under Heaven given by which we may be saved-----I think that would include all of Gods creation

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It is my belief that YES we are the only ones to this date. But in the future say 100000000000000 billion trillion years from now[give or take afew billion trillion years] we will be populating the universe.

Christ is the only saviour that is or was or will be. He alone paid the dead--ONCE and FOR ALL

Is the Bible an account of God's dealing with only this planet or is it an account of His dealings with all of His creations?

But your response brings up this question, after having existed for an infinite amount of time, why did God all of a sudden decide to create the world? To me, that is a drastic change of what He had been doing, whatever that was.

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Is the Bible an account of God's dealing with only this planet or is it an account of His dealings with all of His creations?

But your response brings up this question, after having existed for an infinite amount of time, why did God all of a sudden decide to create the world? To me, that is a drastic change of what He had been doing, whatever that was.

The Bible is an account of his dealing with ALL of ceation.

Your question on what God was doing prior to his creation is an excellent one, even if it is based on an assumtion that God changed what he was doing. He was not revealed what he was doing before ceation--only in limited fashion. He was and always was God being worshipped in Heaven--until the betrayal of satan and his rebellion.

Now I believe that God wanted to prove to all ceation that he was right and satan was wrong. So he laid out the plan before the foundations of the world to make that point. God cast satan from Heaven to earth and allowed him to be the god of that world. God then created man and placed him in satans world of influnce to prove to all of creation that man would still choose God and his love over the plan of satan---------of which God is winning big time

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If so, then that is a physical change in how the world operates (or is operated). How can such a

change in the laws of nature suddenly "end" at, say, the orbit of Mars, or some such place?

If there were a change that diminished gravity by 50%, or that caused uranium 235 to decay twice

as fast, or reduced the speed of light ----- then such a development could not be limited to just

a certain galaxy or a certain star system.

Multi universes can be taken (scientifically) two different ways. One scenario is there are physically more than one universe, like two ponds which never have and never will contact one another. Therefore, if laws are changed in one pond, it would not effect the second.

The second idea is that its one big huge pond, but that there are parts of the big pond which are cut off from other parts of the pond (see The Observable Universe. Since the universe is accelerating in its expansion, there are things which are past our observable envelope, and therefore have no effect upon us. There are even theoretical parts of the universe which were (at one time) observable by us which are now no longer observable. The physical ability to pass information to/from that distant place is no longer possible. Thereby there are multiple universes within the individual ONE BIG UNIVERSE.

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There are no other worlds and no other saviours. The scriptures are very clear on this. Johm 3:16---------God so loved the world.

It does not say worlds

This reminds me of how some Latter-day Saints say that D&C 132 does not require polygamy because it mentions "a man" marrying "a wife" for eternity, as if a man's relationship with each wife in a polygamous marriage (or each sealing ceremony itself) can't be a separate one from any of the others.

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The Church can still deliver a person to the buffetings of satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor. 5:5).

So, anyway cjcampbell, can a person reach the point where their sins are no longer covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ?

I think it is clear that the atonement of Jesus Christ does not take away all the effects of most sins. Those who sin still suffer from the buffetings of Satan to one degree or another, at least in this life.

Those who refuse to repent and accept the atonement of Jesus Christ still have the effects of Adam's transgression removed. They will suffer for their own sins and cannot enter the celestial kingdom.

8 And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered.

â?¢ â?¢ â?¢

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

From this we see that all the worlds created by God were created through the Son; therefore his atonement must also cover these worlds, even the forces of entropy. Because of the atonement, the universe will not collapse into a singularity.

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"...Are sav'd by the very same Saviour of ours..."

It seems that Jesus' atonement has saved other worlds also.

...

Hi Raider,

Just like there is one ONE God, yet God is not one personage, can it not be also true that there is ONE Savior, but that Savior is not one personage? Jesus is ONE with all other Saviors of previous earths.

President Young, the ordained revelator for the church, repeatedly said he obtained all his doctrine from the Prophet Joseph Smith. So, can we not at least consider that the following might be correct?

Every world has had an Adam, and an Eve: named so, simply because the first man is always called Adam, and the first woman Eve; and the oldest son has always had the privilege of being ordained, appointed, and called to be the heir of the family, if he does not rebel against the Father; and he is the savior of that family. Every world that has been created, has been created upon the same principle. They may vary in their varieties, yet the eternity is one; it is one eternal round.

--October 8, 1854 church archives

There never was a time when Worlds were not created-- The work of creation was always in Progress-- An Adam & Eve is necesary for every world. The oldest Son, if faithful, is the Saviour of the family-- There are Lords many & Gods many, but the God that we have to account to, is the father of our Spirits--Adam. All the inhabitance of the Earth are made of one flesh- whether they are black-white-blue or streaked.

--8 October 1854. 17. John Pulsipher version

Also, does not this scripture imply that the Father of Jesus (whom He was ONE with) was also a Savior?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise" (John 5:19).

Richard

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I consider this to be pointless speculation -- especially in light of what the Lord said unto Moses:

Moses 1

30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?

31 ... And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my work and my gloryâ??to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Seems pretty clear to me.

I might also add that I personally consider these verses as constituting self-evident proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I do not believe that a fraud -- pious or otherwise -- could simply "make up" such transcendent concepts as expressed in these few verses.

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Hi Raider,

Just like there is one ONE God, yet God is not one personage, can it not be also true that there is ONE Savior, but that Savior is not one personage? Jesus is ONE with all other Saviors of previous earths.

President Young, the ordained revelator for the church, repeatedly said he obtained all his doctrine from the Prophet Joseph Smith. So, can we not at least consider that the following might be correct?

It sounds like you believe that each earth has a separate Savior. Which reminds me of this Brigham Young quote:

Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so,

I would like some philosophers to let me know how people can be

exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fullness of glory

with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and

every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and people thereof, in their

turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals

that we are passing through.

--Brigham Young, July 10, 1870, JD 14:71-72.

I don't understand these comments to mean, though, that each earth necessarily has a separate Savior. Here are a couple more quotes that help explain why:

D&C 88:45-61

45 The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God.

46 Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?

47 Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power.

48 I say unto you, he hath seen him; nevertheless, he who came unto his own was not comprehended.

49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.

50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

51 Behold, I will liken these kingdoms unto a man having a field, and he sent forth his servants into the field to dig in the field.

52 And he said unto the first: Go ye and labor in the field, and in the first hour I will come unto you, and ye shall behold the joy of my countenance.

53 And he said unto the second: Go ye also into the field, and in the second hour I will visit you with the joy of my countenance.

54 And also unto the third, saying: I will visit you;

55 And unto the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

56 And the lord of the field went unto the first in the first hour, and tarried with him all that hour, and he was made glad with the light of the countenance of his lord.

57 And then he withdrew from the first that he might visit the second also, and the third, and the fourth, and so on unto the twelfth.

58 And thus they all received the light of the countenance of their lord, every man in his hour, and in his time, and in his seasonâ??

59 Beginning at the first, and so on unto the last, and from the last unto the first, and from the first unto the last;

60 Every man in his own order, until his hour was finished, even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified.

61 Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereofâ??every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.

"And he [i.e. Joseph Smith] gave us to understand that there were twelve kingdoms, or planets, revolving around our solar system, to which the Lord gave an equal division of His time or ministry and that now was His time to again visit the earth."

--Benjamin F. Johnson, 'An Interesting Letter from Patriarch Benjamin F. Johnson to Elder George S. Gibbs,' Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah.

It sounds like Jesus is over at least 12 other worlds.

Also, does not this scripture imply that the Father of Jesus (whom He was ONE with) was also a Savior?

Richard

I think it does.

Also, cjcampbell and calmoriah,

Do you think that if we achieve "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph. 4:13) that we will have to pay for our own sins?

D&C 132:60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

Also, William Schryver,

The Lord aparently (considering such things as the D&C 88 passage above) gave us more info in the revelations in the D&C than he gave Moses. To me that is a good thing. I don't think we learn more by ignoring what we don't fully understand.

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Help me out here a little, please.

LDS doctrine says that the atonement of Jesus ended physical death as an ultimate end, and

thus allows for the inevitability of a resurrection ---- correct?

If so, then that is a physical change in how the world operates (or is operated). How can such a

change in the laws of nature suddenly "end" at, say, the orbit of Mars, or some such place?

Not necessarily.

1. Jesus could in effect be working within the laws of physics to counter act death for those he chooses.

Death ends because there is an omnipotent doctor in the house so to speak.

How big is the house remains open logically speaking.

2. Also, time in other disconnected "universes" is not commensurable with our time. Events in our universe are niether before nor after the events in the other universes.

The ressurection was niether before nor after the events in another universe so there was no time in the other universe at which the resurrection took place and hence no time at which death should have ended.

3. Different universes may have different physical laws anyway.

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Not necessarily.

1. Jesus could in effect be working within the laws of physics to counter act death for those he chooses.

Death ends because there is an omnipotent doctor in the house so to speak.

How big is the house remains open logically speaking.

2. Also, time in other disconnected "universes" is not commensurable with our time. Events in our universe are niether before nor after the events in the other universes.

The ressurection was niether before nor after the events in another universe so there was no time in the other universe at which the resurrection took place and hence no time at which death should have ended.

3. Different universes may have different physical laws anyway.

Well, since I reject the conceit that the experiences of Jesus had anything whatsoever to do with

how death works in the universe, I suppose I should opt out of the discussion altogether.

There are already enough billions upon billions of galaxies in our own universe to occupy my thoughts.

UD

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Just like there is one ONE God, yet God is not one personage, can it not be also true that there is ONE Savior, but that Savior is not one personage? Jesus is ONE with all other Saviors of previous earths.

I have heard and understand this argument before, but I am always hung up on the point: what does only begotten son in the flesh mean? If God the Father is begetting other Sons on other planets, and if in modern revelation he reveals that on each world the first man is always called Adam (as a title - "first man" - rather than just a name), wouldn't the Father's numerous witnesses that "This is my ONLY begotten Son" be a little questionable as to "is He only giving us a half-truth" with other only begotten Sons out there somewhere? It doesn't seem reasonable to me.

D&C 93:9-11

9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

This same Savior that we have not only created this world, but the worlds were also created by him. All things were made by him - our Jesus Christ. So, are we splitting hairs on the principle of divine investiture of authority of the Father to say that this doesn't really mean that this same Jesus described in D&C 93 is not an individual but a class of saviors who must be sent to the other worlds that our Jesus created in order to save them too? Since we don't have a definative answer, I think this will remain a matter of personal interpretation and faith until we receive further light and knowledge, but I for one believe in the universal atonement of Jesus Christ and it is just as incomprehensible to me that he could pay for the sins of the billions who have ever lived on earth as the unnumbered (to us) masses that exist throughout God's creation, past, present, and future, yet thought I don't understand it, I believe it and feel its affect in my life.

How could his atonement apply to those who lived on other worlds well before Jesus came to this world or will be born long after he died? The same question was answered in the Book of Mormon where generations of prophets were assured thousands of years before his birth of the forgiveness of their sins based on the certainty of the Messiah coming in the meridian of time and performing the exact thing that he had always promised he would do.

In other words, they banked on the fact that the atonement would happen and applied for the credit before the deposit was actually made. Without understanding that there is no time for God and all things are continually before him, this would really be a brain fryer. Just a side note: I think we can now see why Lucifer and his group had such a persuasive argument: until Jesus actually completed a sinless life and submitted to the atonement, there was always a chance that he wouldn't pull it off, leaving all the rest of us, pardon my french, screwed. Their way - taking no chances that their salvation wouldn't get derailed by placing the hope and dreams of all creation on one man being 100.0000000% perfect, though he be the very Son of God - would probably have looked much more reasonable to a lot of the spirits there.

To answer Roman in another post above, we are also taught that the works of Satan have been done on other worlds. That doesn't make a lot of sense if those worlds were barren and lifeless and the children of God hadn't been created anywhere else but here yet to be tempted.

I think there is a very good reason why in Moses, as quoted above, God in his wisdom only tells us regarding this world - the speculation can easily lead us to "look beyond the mark" and drive us a little :P . But we still do it anyway!

wjclerk

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Help me out here a little, please.

LDS doctrine says that the atonement of Jesus ended physical death as an ultimate end, and

thus allows for the inevitability of a resurrection ---- correct?

If so, then that is a physical change in how the world operates (or is operated). How can such a

change in the laws of nature suddenly "end" at, say, the orbit of Mars, or some such place?

If there were a change that diminished gravity by 50%, or that caused uranium 235 to decay twice

as fast, or reduced the speed of light ----- then such a development could not be limited to just

a certain galaxy or a certain star system.

An astronaut travels to a moon of Jupiter and dies there --- could it be that he cannot be resurrected,

because he has exceeded the boundary of Jesus' atonement?

Surely a Mormon GA has said someinthing about this -- maybe in Pratt's The Seer?

UD

Do you not beleive that god is omnipotent, omniprecent, ?

:P

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Do you not beleive that god is omnipotent, omniprecent, ?

:P

It has been my experience, that professing such attributes merely leads to absurdities. In other words,

the human mind is not capable of formulating and comprehending such descriptions of God.

To a human being, "omnipotent" might mean a god that can make anything happen -- for example,

create three duplicates of himself; set those new gods to war with each other; and then commit divine

suicide himself. The possible absurd examples are countless.

As for God being "omnipresent," I truly believe that is the way we human beings experience God --

but to say anything more than just that also leads to more absurdities --- as for example: If the Devil's

left toe is larger than his right toe, does that mean there is "more" of God present in that left toe?

Who cares? It's all mental masturb@tion.

UD

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Last Sunday I forgot to bring my scriptures to church, so I borrowed a set from the meetinghouse library. It was a nice leather quad that must've been a lost & found item because it had a paper glued in it at 2 Nephi 9:7 with a couple of quotes, including one from Bruce R. McConkie, explaining the meaning of "infinite atonement". In the Bruce R. McConkie quote, IIRC he mentioned Moses 1:33 about how the Lord created "worlds without number" by the Son. He also mentioned D&C 76:24 about how the inhabitants of those worlds are, by the Son, "begotten sons and daughters unto God". I wanted to comment on this and say that the number of worlds created between the time the Son became a member of the godhead and began to create worlds, and the time the statement was made in February of 1832, would have to be a finite number. It was probably considered "without number" to Moses because he lacked a numbering system to deal with numbers that huge. Probably only a very small number of these worlds are inhabited with people, as was discussed in another recent thread. I thought I'd mention this (but didn't get around to it last week) because the way Elder McConkie's statement was worded, it could leave one with the impression that there are already in existence a literally infinite number of worlds that were redeemed by the atonement of Christ. That would make no sense to me. What would make more sense to me is that there are a very great number of worlds (although a finite number) that have been created, only some of which were inhabited, and they were redeemed through the atonement of Christ. I see the atonement as being infinite and neverending in its ultimate effects on the infinite, eternal and ever-expanding family of God.

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