To All Practitioners Of Witchcraft And Sorcery

[consiglieri]

Although this is not to be construed as a personal thread in any way, we are blessed to have as a member of this message board at least one individual who professes to practice withcraft, sorcery, etc. (And I apologize if I have gotten the exact name of the dark art wrong. And now I apologize for calling it "dark.")

My question is this:

Has anybody who has practiced any of these arts produced any kind of observable results?

Such as a demon appearing in a magic circle in response to a summoning?

A love potion/spell that enamored despite no natural attraction?

Getting a passing grade on a test you didn't study for?

Making warts explode from an enemy's face?

Disarming a foe with the word, "Expelliarmus"?

Though couched in typical Consiglieri tongue-in-cheek style, I am serious in asking this question and would be interested in any responses.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tarski]

Although this is not to be construed as a personal thread in any way, we are blessed to have as a member of this message board at least one individual who professes to practice withcraft, sorcery, etc. (And I apologize if I have gotten the exact name of the dark art wrong. And now I apologize for calling it "dark.")

My question is this:

Has anybody who has practiced any of these arts produced any kind of observable results?

Such as a demon appearing in a magic circle in response to a summoning?

A love potion/spell that enamored despite no natural attraction?

Getting a passing grade on a test you didn't study for?

The answer the practitioners will surely is YES!

Of course, the specific answers will be just as (un)verifiable and of the same type as concering the effectiveness of prayer and prieshood blessings.

[captain-jack]

Love potions? Preposterous! *hides phial* I got my wife fair and square!

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

I fooled about with it for about 2 years. I didn't believe it for a moment (which is apparently a problem I have with everything) and had no results other than attracting very kooky gothic men to me.

My roomate believed she cast spells and love potions. I think her "supernatural ability" to attract men to our apartment left when I moved out.

[Severian]

I have frequently wondered about the inherent properties in those CTR rings. Are they truly effective in the use of warding spells? Can they provide the same protection from danger as our unmentionables?

[Mighty Curelom]

January, 2007, Liahona

It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned: â??The knowledge of sin tempteth to its commission.â?2 The only safe course is to keep well distanced from him and any of his wicked activities or nefarious practices. The mischief of devil worship, sorcery, witchcraft, voodooism, casting spells, black magic, and all other forms of demonism should always be avoided.

Chuckle all you want, but your own prophets think witchcraft is real, and produces real results.

[Tsuzuki]

Although this is not to be construed as a personal thread in any way, we are blessed to have as a member of this message board at least one individual who professes to practice withcraft, sorcery, etc. (And I apologize if I have gotten the exact name of the dark art wrong. And now I apologize for calling it "dark.")

My question is this:

Has anybody who has practiced any of these arts produced any kind of observable results?

Such as a demon appearing in a magic circle in response to a summoning?

A love potion/spell that enamored despite no natural attraction?

Getting a passing grade on a test you didn't study for?

Making warts explode from an enemy's face?

Disarming a foe with the word, "Expelliarmus"?

Though couched in typical Consiglieri tongue-in-cheek style, I am serious in asking this question and would be interested in any responses.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Magic works by manipulating probabilities. It can't make anything truly impossible happen, and the more you can help it along through mundane means the better. But yes, I've gotten observable results. And since you mentioned getting a passing grade on a test not studied for, I've gotten straight A's consistently for the past year and a half when I'd been spending most of my time goofing off on this message board. I've also nabbed myself a girlfriend and a free Playstation. Of course, the real test of my prowess will be the transformation of Mormon culture according to my own vision, which will likely take the better part of a lifetime, but they don't call them extended magical workings for nothing.

[karl61]

We are all witches or warlocks at one time or another.

We have the God spell - Gospel or another spell. doing the opposite of the Godspell is doing witchcraft which we all do since we are not perfect. Being impatient, watching movies you shouldn't, talking about others ect, is all witchcraft - a spell that you reap and sow. Now everyone admitt you have too many brooms for your house.

[jadams_4242]

January, 2007, Liahona

Chuckle all you want, but your own prophets think witchcraft is real, and produces real results.

Yes satan is real, and opening the door for him to come walking in, is not very smart!

Keep the door shut.

{ it angers him!}

[Maidservant]

Witchcraft;

and

having an effect on the elements of this earth with the not-often understood, plumbed or practiced capacities of the human soul (i.e. magic) (including the use of 'word' (see Genesis, lol)) without any or with little technological intermediary;

are two completely different things, IMO.

The latter is neutral -- the only caveat might be in 121:36. Which, combined with the observations and anecdotes I am possessed of, makes me think that evil might seem to have to ropes of the powers of heaven for a time, but since it leads to destruction, it becomes null. Godly handling is always necessary for the universe in its entirety to be able to be maintained.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

**Edited**

Just something in that experience fundamentally changed the way I perceived everything supernatural. My skeptic emerged from that experience.

[katherine the great]

My question is this:

Has anybody who has practiced any of these arts produced any kind of observable results?

No, but I did stay in a haunted hotel last week. (does that count?)

[jadams_4242]

No, but I did stay in a haunted hotel last week. (does that count?)

Was that a Haunted Inn or a Holiday inn?

{sorry its gettin late!}

[Tsuzuki]

Witchcraft;

and

having an effect on the elements of this earth with the not-often understood, plumbed or practiced capacities of the human soul (i.e. magic) (including the use of 'word' (see Genesis, lol)) without any or with little technological intermediary;

are two completely different things, IMO.

The latter is neutral -- the only caveat might be in 121:36. Which, combined with the observations and anecdotes I am possessed of, makes me think that evil might seem to have to ropes of the powers of heaven for a time, but since it leads to destruction, it becomes null. Godly handling is always necessary for the universe in its entirety to be able to be maintained.

"To magnetize without danger, it is essential to have within oneself the light of life, that is to say it is necessary to be wise and righteous."

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret

"To act on others without binding oneself, one needs that perfect independence belonging to God alone. Can man become godlike? - Yes, by participation!

To exercise great power without being perfectly free is to consign oneself to a great fatality. This is why it is scarcely possible for a sorcerer to repent and why his damnation is so sure.

The power of the mage and the sorcerer is one and the same; with this difference, the mage clings to the tree when he cuts off the branch while the sorcerer hangs from the very branch he is trying to cut off."

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret

"A man may do anything he wants to do when all he wants to do is justice. He may even, if he so wishes, rush into wrongdoing but he will be dashed to pieces if he does."

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret

[Maidservant]

Sweet.

[sunstoned]

Magic works by manipulating probabilities. It can't make anything truly impossible happen, and the more you can help it along through mundane means the better. But yes, I've gotten observable results. And since you mentioned getting a passing grade on a test not studied for, I've gotten straight A's consistently for the past year and a half when I'd been spending most of my time goofing off on this message board. I've also nabbed myself a girlfriend and a free Playstation. Of course, the real test of my prowess will be the transformation of Mormon culture according to my own vision, which will likely take the better part of a lifetime, but they don't call them extended magical workings for nothing.

Free Playstation! Luckieee...

[Calm]

Chuckle all you want, but your own prophets think witchcraft is real, and produces real results.

The belief and practice of witchcraft certainly is real. Acknowledging that doesn't mean an acceptance of its alleged effectiveness.

I would not say that saying that the practice of witchcraft can lead to evil means that they think it is effective in the way that it purposes to be. It's possible that some may, but I suspect from the context that they mean something else. The soul can be corrupted by a practice even if the practice is ultimately worthless for the intended purpose. Gambling to acquire wealth more often than not results in less wealth, but can still lead to a sinful life.

Elijah made a pretty clear statement, imo, that he didn't see the efforts of priests/prophets of Baal as effective, but he still condemned those efforts as sinful and they were still punished for them. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_kgs/18)

I would suggest in this case, it is not so much the attempted cause and effect that is being condemned as evil, but the motivation behind it and the results of nurturing that motivation--arrogance, an attempt to vacate God's Will, relying on the 'arm of flesh', whatever.

I too think an honest belief in and attempt to practice witchcraft can produce real, very real results--the result not being successful spells, but rather a misstep in seeking God and the full and true Gospel.

[Tsuzuki]

Peter Carroll's Equations of Magic

From Liber Kaos, by Peter Carroll

All variables are between 0 and 1.

First equation of magic: (determining the M factor)

M - magic factor

G - gnosis/altered state

L - magical link

A - conscious awareness

R - subconscious resistance

Second equation of magic: (increasing the probability of an event)

P - initial probability

M - magic factor

Pm - new probability

Third equation of magic: (decreasing the probability of an event)

P - initial probability

M - magic factor

Pm - new probability

How to Use

"Thus it can be seen that all four factors must be attended to in the planning of a magical act or it will come to very little. The overall magic factor M can never exceed the value of the gnosis employed or the quality of the magical link. Neither can it be greater than (1-A) or (1-R). If all factors are at half, 0.5, then the overall magic factor M, is a very poor 0.0625; unlikely to create any discernable effect whatsoever.

In practice, both gnosis and the magical link need to be in range 0.8 to 0.9. For gnosis this corresponds to an extremely hysterical focusing of the mind by ecstatic or meditative techniques, if only momentary or intermittently. A good orgasm or that split second of quiescence at the end of half an hour's raja yoga may just suffice. The equivalent for the magical link would correspond, in enchantment, to an elaborate image in the memory of the target phenomenon undergoing the required change. I have very little faith in hair and nail clippings alone. For a link in divination, the best results are given by an extensive mental image of that target phenomenon. Prior personal contact is infinitely preferable to a mere photograph.

Spell or ensigilization techniques should be used to depress conscious awareness A, to the 0.1 to 0.2 range. A spell or sigil is some abstract representation of desire. It is constructed so as to be as meaningless to the conscious mind as possible. It acts to channel the power of gnosis to the subconscious mind, which causes the actual desire to be realized by the emission or absorption of etheric patterns.

Subconscious resistance R must similarly be depressed to the minimum value, as anything above 0.2 is a serious liability. Much of the paraphernalia and theory of magic, including this theory, exist partly to convince the magician that he or she is a magician, and magic is possible in a cultural climate that is heavily antagonistic to such notions.

If values of G and L can be kept in 0.8 to 0.9 range, and values of A and R can be kept in the 0.1 to 0.2 range, then an M factor of around 0.5, which is about the minimum required to have any useful effect in magic, will result.

...

These are not particularly good news for the would-be magician. They indicate that enchantment and divination are very difficult. The first equation shows that considerable effort and skill must be used even to bring an M factor of 0.5 to bear on a situation. The second and third equations indicate that even this makes only a snall difference when it comes to forcing the hand of chance. Improving the conditions of one's existence by the kind of pure parapsychology that these equations describe requires the skillful application of quite extreme acts of magic. However once the maneuvers necessary to achieve high gnosis and low conscious awareness and subconscious resistance have been mastered they are always available, and only the problem of the magical link has to be solved for each situation to permit effective magic."

- Peter J. Carroll,

Liber Kaos

[19nazzy]

Disarming a foe with the word, "Expelliarmus"?

I tried, but now all I've got is a scar on my forehead.

[Severian]

Second equation of magic: (increasing the probability of an event)

P - initial probability

M - magic factor

Pm - new probability

Hey, could the Mopologists use this one in defense of the BOA? If so, the crew at the Maxwell Institute might well have a new paper within their grasp.

[e=mc2]

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble,

All I wanna do is look through Hubble,

I wanna see my future home,

though on land or rough seas where I roam.......

I wanna use math for my magic galore,

I want get to the future before........

I end up someplace I won't like,

Like Urroner's house, having to ride his trike......

Shirtspeare............

[Tsuzuki]

Hey, could the Mopologists use this one in defense of the BOA? If so, the crew at the Maxwell Institute might well have a new paper within their grasp.

You'd better counter their work with the third equation.

Third equation of magic: (decreasing the probability of an event)

P - initial probability

M - magic factor

Pm - new probability

"When conflicting acts of magic are performed to both increase and decrease the probability of an event occurring by chance, the respective M must be subtracted from each other and the remaining part of the largest factor substituted in the appropriate equation. For example M = 0.6 for and M = 0.4 against is assessed by entering M = 0.2 in equation two. M = 0.55 for and M = 0.89 against is evaluated by entering M = 0.34 in equation three."

- Peter J. Carroll,

Liber Kaos

[Baurak Ale]

Consiglieri, you have your foot in the door it seems. T. S. Elliot asked the same question and experimented upon that, he said afterwards.

"I have seen the eternal Footman (Devils going to and fro in the earth) hold my coat, and snicker,

And in short, I was afraid."

Mighty Curelom is that Golem in your avatar?

[Mighty Curelom]

Mighty Curelom is that Golem in your avatar?

It's the face of one of the sphinxes in front of the Salt Lake Masonic Temple.

[PhilipTraum]

Would using the I Ching count as witchcraft?