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The revelation on this is pretty clear, so I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. I should note that this is my favorite kind of scripture: contemporary, given in English, unambiguous, and canonized.

Based on this verse, it appears the whole "they'll have to accept it in the afterlife" idea hadn't really dawned on Joseph yet. There were only three options given: either someone turns 8 and accepts the gospel in this life, or, God could give them a pass if they would have accepted it in this life but didn't have the chance (and they died after turning 8 ). Or finally, anyone who dies before turning 8 goes to the CK without needing to make any further choices or taking any tests.

The whole idea of post-mortal spirits making choices and being tested and angels doing missionary work doesn't seem to have come along until later (and, like many of our ideas about the pre and post-mortal worlds, may be non-canonical and possibly incorrect).

Aye, but where in the Celestial Kingdom, and why, and are there different possibilities beyond this one verse...?

:P

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The Catholic has learned from birth that as long as you accept Jesus, you are saved. Works don't matter. So, in his mind, the murdering of these people have nothing to do with his salvation. After all, he has accepted Jesus. Why, he may even do a penance for everyone he murders, thereby absolving him from his sins. He has lived his life in accordance to the teachings he has received, and in his mind, should be saved from hell.
For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; (Moroni 7:16)
Behaviors contrary to what one should know to be true irrespective of mortal falsehoods scarcely qualifies as an excuse.
Now, according to LDS theology, when he dies, he will be given an opportunity to see the error of his ways. He will learn that, in fact, works DO matter. He will be taught the gospel. He will be given the chance to accept and repent. If he chooses to accept and repent, he will be given a kingdom of glory.
Yes, every one will inherit a kingdom of glory, even the basest of sinners. Those who make the most of their life here and their spirit prison probation will be given a kingdom of greater glory (the whole sun, moon, stars thing). And let's not forget, it is not so much one's works as one's character that matters (but I suppose you meant that, of course, by "and repent").

I would also maintain that how "comfortable" one's probationary period prior to the Second Resurrection also largely depends on how they make use of life's opportunities.

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I can agree with this. However, that is "the gospel according to Scottie and Nofear".
What!? Nofear's opinions aren't always quintessential expressions of orthodoxy? :P

Still, I'm glad you came to see life as a fair "test". <_< Now to just get you to believe that is consistent within the realm of orthodox LDS doctrine...

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Behaviors contrary to what one should know to be true irrespective of mortal falsehoods scarcely qualifies as an excuse.
But you forget that in my example, the drug lord repents as best he knows how by confessing to the priest and doing a penance. He knows that murdering people is wrong, but believes himself to still be in Gods good graces.
Yes, every one will inherit a kingdom of glory, even the basest of sinners. Those who make the most of their life here and their spirit prison probation will be given a kingdom of greater glory (the whole sun, moon, stars thing). And let's not forget, it is not so much one's works as one's character that matters (but I suppose you meant that, of course, by "and repent").
This goes against everything LDS. The whole LDS mantra that sets it apart from mainstream Christianity is that they believe that works are required for salvation! That character is not enough! You talk like an EV. Just accept Jesus and live a good life and you'll make it to heaven.
I would also maintain that how "comfortable" one's probationary period prior to the Second Resurrection also largely depends on how they make use of life's opportunities.

Yes, spirit prison vs spirit paradise. I could agree with this, even though we know very little about it.
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Aye, but where in the Celestial Kingdom, and why, and are there different possibilities beyond this one verse...?

:P

As far as I know, at the time this revelation was given there was only one "degree" of the Celestial Kingdom.

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After reading the opening post, I am reminded of a question my father often posed us (after giving himself 3 scoops of ice cream to our one):

Who lied to you and told you life was supposed to be fair?

Moving on.

In terms of punishments, my sisters would have their phone privileges taken away, and I would have my books taken away. Not equal at all, and thus not 'fair'. And yet, it worked. Phone privileges were more important to them than books, and books were more important to me than the phone.

Not everyone is the same, and not everyone must undergo the same test.

Eminently unfair, and yet there it is.

I'll leave it up to God to decide. Because, frankly, you do *not* want to leave it up to me.

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Sorry but the burden of proof lies on you to prove it does exist, not on us to prove it doesn't.

It's a fantastic claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence.

Read heavenly ways of earths graduates.

Or you could live the teachings of Christ and go there yourself, without death.

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Yes, spirit prison vs spirit paradise. I could agree with this, even though we know very little about it.
Wish I knew more too. Alas, such is not yet.
But you forget that in my example, the drug lord repents as best he knows how by confessing to the priest and doing a penance. He knows that murdering people is wrong, but believes himself to still be in Gods good graces.
Exactly. He acts contrary to what he knows. Belief and self-delusion don't excuse.
This goes against everything LDS. The whole LDS mantra that sets it apart from mainstream Christianity is that they believe that works are required for salvation! That character is not enough! You talk like an EV. Just accept Jesus and live a good life and you'll make it to heaven.
Seems you have some misunderstanding of LDS doctrine ("Now to just get you to believe that [such an interpretation] is consistent within the realm of orthodox LDS doctrine..."). Some works matter for some things -- specifically ordinances. But we are reassured those works will available eventually. While works are important, they have always subordinate to character. Character leads to works. In this you may say we share some similar thoughts to evangelicals. But there is more.
For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God. (Moroni 7:8)

And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God. (D&C 82:7)

Here you see two indicators of what I mean. I can be "good" all my life but if I do it for the wrong reasons more will be required of me. It is not enough to resist temptation but we must eventually come to the point where we cease to be tempted. It is an immensely high standard, well beyond that required by evangelicals. It is a standard that has been achieved by one and only one mortal. Through his help (and it is impossible without it) and with time some of us will achieve a similar standard. Life is an opportunity/test to demonstrate (to ourselves - see D&C 88:33) that we are willing to start such a path to that impossible standard.

The rest of us? Based on how we respond to our opportunity/test, we inherit a kingdom with laws and peoples most suited to our character, having demonstrated to ourselves that we have no such high ambition (again consistent with D&C 88:33). Such a demonstration does not require full access to the truths found in the Gospel. It matters what we do with what we are given here in life.

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If there was no premortal life, could this life, with all of its different circumstances, be a fair test?

First of all, who ever told you that life would be â??fairâ?? Werenâ??t most of us disabused of that notion even as children, and as very young children, at that? You didnâ??t get the memo?

Secondly, you havenâ??t even finished the test yet, let alone had it graded. In light of that, isnâ??t it more than just a teensy-weensy, little bit premature to start wondering whether the test is fair?

Thirdly, think of the fairest, least arbitrary professor or teacher youâ??ve ever had. You donâ??t think God can put even him/her to shame?

Second, should a finite test be used to determine eternity?

I donâ??t know. Should a finite test be used to determine whether someone gets into college, law school, med school or grad school? Should a finite test be used to determine whether someone is fit to practice medicine, law, or some other profession? If not, what would you propose as an alternative? Do you think God is capable of being at least as fair as the folks who administer any of those tests? If not, why not?

[We will n]ot [receive a fullness] at the same instant; no; but I do feel a majority of us, though we may be pretty close in some areas, will all be deficient in other areas, and it'll be a while before we are ready for a [fullness] in the full sense of the word.

Eh, what? Itâ??s not like a Polaroid picture where we die and â?¦ Shazam! â?¦ instant Godhood?! I donâ??t know about you but that little detail certainly wasnâ??t in the contract I signed! Thatâ??s it! Iâ??m officially, royally ticked! [Ken picks up yellow pages and starts thumbing through the â??A-sâ? to find an Attorney!] Oh, wait â?¦ ! I knew there was a reason I went to law school and spent all that money â?¦ :unsure::P Now if I could just take/pass that danged Bar Exam! :ph34r:<_<

Statistically, according to the LDS concept of missionaries in the afterlife, very close to 0% of all those that have ever lived on the earth will make it to the CK when they die.

Thatâ??s right. No one makes it to the Celestial Kingdom immediately after they die. And?

However, my point was that so incredibly few souls will learn what they need on this earthly test, I question why God would create a test where the failure rate is so close to 100%??

So â?¦ youâ??ve already been graded, Scottie? If not, how do you know whether youâ??ll pass or â??failâ?? I donâ??t believe God necessarily created any of us to fail, and I believe that Heâ??s fairer than even the least arbitrary, most evenhanded professor Iâ??ve ever had. I believe that life is a lot like school, arbitrary professors notwithstanding: more often than not, whatever obstacles I might face, what I learn in any given class is largely up to me.

â?¦ [Y]ou're not seriously asking me to do the math for you between how many Mormons that have ever existed vs the entire population of everyone that has ever existed, are you???

What difference does that make? God doesnâ??t grade on a pass-fail, saved-damned system anyway. Whoever we are, and whatever knowledge we have, we will be judged according to how well we lived up to what we know. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never espoused the sort of soteriological ethic favored by the Scribes and Pharisees: â??We have Abraham to our father.â?

â?¦[W]hy can't God allow for more of us to know about these unalterable and eternal principles???

He can, and He does. You just donâ??t like His timing.

Mormons believe that they have the whole truth.

So thatâ??s why everybodyâ??s quadruple combination is so much bigger than mine! (Why am I always the last to know? :angry:) Can someone clue me in on whatâ??s in the [Formerly-]Sealed-Two-Thirds? And the Articles of Faith must have been rewritten, too. My Ninth Article of Faith still says, â??We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.â?

I'm a pretty good and moral person, but I do drink coffee....so, I'm definitely not closer to the path than you!!

Dang, LifeOnaPlate, you rascal you! Will ya quit beinâ?? so judgmental of poor Scottie, here?!!

LifeOnaPlate: Bâ?? Buâ?? But I didnâ??t even open my mouth! Iâ??ve never even met Scottie except in cyberspace!

Ken: I know â?¦ And yet youâ??re so proficient at judging him! Boy, Iâ??d like to have your gift for instantly evaluating, sight unseen, the character of folks!

there are a LOT of things we don't know, yet. An awful lot.
Then what exactly is the test?

Living the best we can according to what we knowâ??until we receive more, then living the best we can according to that (until we receive more), and so on.

If even those that are supposed to have the entire textbook don't have everything they need to pass the test, why are we calling it a test??

Who said we have â??the entire textbookâ?? Has the Ninth Article of Faith been rescinded? And we do have â??everything [we] need to pass the test,â? as long as we live the best we can according to what we knowâ??until we receive moreâ??then living the best we can according to that, and so on.

All I'm saying is that it seems silly to label this life as a test when, in fact, very few of us will actually be judged on what we do here since so very few of us have the complete rule book to even know what we're supposed to be doing here.

We will all be judged on how well we lived according to what we know. All of us. Those who know more will be challenged to do more, and those who know comparatively less will not be challenged to do moreâ??until they know more: then, once they know more, they will be challenged to do more.

The Catholic has learned from birth that as long as you accept Jesus, you are saved. Works don't matter. So, in his mind, the murdering of these people have nothing to do with his salvation.

Thatâ??s a gross oversimplification. Even most people who come down on the â??Grace sideâ? of the â??Grace-Works Debateâ? wouldnâ??t argue that works donâ??t matter. Rather, the question is, what do works matter for? Do they matter as efforts to obtain salvation, or as manifestations of salvation? And youâ??re positing that your hypothetical murderer can ignore his conscience (aka the Light of Christ) because of what his church teaches him? I donâ??t think so, and I donâ??t know any Mormons who think so, either; I donâ??t think he could fairly be said to be attempting to live the best he could according to what he knows. Even manmade law, malleable though it may be in many respects, recognizes the difference between something that is malum in se (inherently wrong) and something that is malum prohibitum (wrong because the law says it is). If even man is smart enough to know that difference, surely an Omniscient God knows, too.

â?¦ (I)n my example, the drug lord repents as best he knows how by confessing to the priest and doing a penance.

True repentance, by very definition involves at least enough of a change of heart that one knows enough to stop committing the sin, especially if weâ??re talking about something as serious as murder. And I donâ??t believe the drug lord can justify himself if he ignores his conscience.

The whole LDS mantra that sets it apart from mainstream Christianity is that they believe that works are required for salvation!

Maybe, but nothing I do would matter one whit without Christâ??s Atonement.

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First of all, who ever told you [...] Maybe, but nothing I do would matter one whit without Christâ??s Atonement.

Nicely done.

I did notice you edited me for spelling, but I have to point out that in my spelling of "fulness" I am following the standard LDS scriptural spelling of the word, which is spelled "fulness." I am not exactly clear on the significance of that spelling, but I do know it always drives my spell checker crazy.

Example:

Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulnessâ? (D&C 88:28â??29).
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Actually, although I see your point (Scottie), I disagree that it is almost 100% failure rate -- I would say it is almost 100% success. Here is the lense I have on that:

We are all descending below all things (as is described of the Savior's atonement). Our descent is not the degree the Savior's was, but I can promise you it is a success -- not a failure -- if a person becomes intimately acquainted with, say, drug addiction; or what it is like to have your house burn down; or what it is like for Mormons to misunderstand you; or what it is like to be in a government work camp -- it almost doesn't matter if one passed through these things weakly or strongly. This is exactly the kind of knowledge that our Father is interested in investing in us. The knowledge about glory (although the foil of suffering is also necesary to understand that completely also) -- but we knew glory and knowledge (of what we presently term mysterys) before, and we will easily know glory and all the information about God's life in future glory. But the only place we could possibly become acquainted with suffering and death and what it is like to save someone (ourselves and others) is by coming to this place -- a veiled, finite, temporary condition. Suffering is not allowed and cannot happen in God's celestial life (and where we were premortally) if for no other reason that no Being there would participate in it. But here we came to get knowledge we all wanted about what the Adversary can do and the effects of the Adversary's plan -- because that information cannot arise in any real sense in a kingdom of glory (pre or post mortal).

When we get to "the other side" we''ll be sharing our stories (we already do here) and get the GOOD from the EVIL -- 100% success.

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