Jump to content

Philosophical Question


Thinking

Recommended Posts

Bluebell,

Yes, you are correct that the final judgement will determine who gets into the CK or not.

However, my point was that so incredibly few souls will learn what they need on this earthly test, I question why God would create a test where the failure rate is so close to 100%??

Since the vast, Vast, VAST majority of spirits will have to learn it all in the afterlife anyways, why isn't THAT considered the test?

Perhaps because much of what we are tested on can be tested whether we have the gospel in our lives or not.

A person can certainly be tested on how kind they are-even if they don't know about Christ-the same thing for how selfless a person is-how humble-how generous-how faithful to good virtues in the face of persecution etc.

Not having the gospel in this life is no reflection on a persons 'failure' in gaining the greatest blessing.

A buddist who never heard the name of Christ spoken but gave up his life saving another-or shared what little he had with the poor-or was kind to his family and put them before himself-already passed most of the test and if he accepts Christ after death than nothing will be withheld from him.

This life is about being presented with opposite choices (opposition between good and evil) and learning to choose the good and that test can pretty much be administered whether a person has the Gospel in their life or not.

They may not know all the right answers, but thankfully God does not test us on knowledge we haven't received yet but only on what we have.

:P

Link to comment

If by fair you mean a degree of or perfect justice, then yes all is fair.

Seeing as Heaven means expansion, we will either be expanding or contracting. If we expand continually then we abide in Heaven, according to our devine attributes will we abide in that phase or level.

If we contract then we will eventually be absorbed back into the God substance to be recycled, but never again a spirit as we were. The second death so to speak. No knowledge of existing or being. Nothingness, this is mercy on the lowest scale.

Those that learned well, chose their lot, or test.

Those that learned little, were given their lot, or tests.

Those that rebelled and chose no direction, are placed in the best place to learn obedience and suffering, for not choosing.

All is perfect , all is on time, all is mercifull.

The great school of the gods.

Link to comment

The more I think about how long eternity is, the more I question the belief that each person gets just this one finite lifetime as a test to determine "placement" in the eternities.

First, not everybody takes the same test. We are all born into different circumstances and with different mental capabilities. Some might argue that our "premortal life" determined our circumstances here. If that's true, would a valiant premortal life put you into favorable circumstances or challenging circumstances? For example, the student who scores high on a math placement test will be placed in a higher (more difficult) course than the student who scores low. If there was no premortal life, could this life, with all of its different circumstances, be a fair test?

Second, should a finite test be used to determine eternity?

No, a finite test cannot be used to determine eternity. Finite actions cannot have infinite consequences. That is humanhood 101. :P

Link to comment

However, my point was that so incredibly few souls will learn what they need on this earthly test, I question why God would create a test where the failure rate is so close to 100%??

First, CFR on "incredibly few souls" learning what they need in this life.

Second, has it occurred to you that the principles of the plan are unalterable and eternal?

Link to comment

First, CFR on "incredibly few souls" learning what they need in this life.

Second, has it occurred to you that the principles of the plan are unalterable and eternal?

First, you're not seriously asking me to do the math for you between how many Mormons that have ever existed vs the entire population of everyone that has ever existed, are you???

Second, why can't God allow for more of us to know about these unalterable and eternal principles??? Seems like a pretty weak plan to me.

Link to comment

First, you're not seriously asking me to do the math for you between how many Mormons that have ever existed vs the entire population of everyone that has ever existed, are you???

Second, why can't God allow for more of us to know about these unalterable and eternal principles??? Seems like a pretty weak plan to me.

Hence the need for ongoing temple work for the dead. The eternal principles you speak of have been known; they are known. The first and great commandment to love God with all your might, the second to love your neighbor as yourself are the principles upon which all the rest of the principles hang. Virtually every human society has access to these principles and a set of values that almost universally reflect the notion of caring for one another as a human race.

This thread also makes me think of Stephen Robison's "Parable of the Dive"; he points out the "difficulty of the dive" factor in determining the outcome. God alone knows the full difficulty of the life we have each been given, and the infinite mercy and the infinite Atonement make up for a great deal. LDS theology, in fact, teaches (Moroni 8:22) that all who do not know of Christ and die without that knowledge are "alive in Christ" and that he that does not understand cannot repent, therefore, Christ's atonement suffices.

Link to comment

Statistically, according to the LDS concept of missionaries in the afterlife, very close to 0% of all those that have ever lived on the earth will make it to the CK when they die. So, what is the point of having a test on earth when the failure rate is statistically fractions below 100%? This is really the best plan an omniscient God could come up with??

You're forgetting one very important doctrine, Scotty. Everyone who dies before they are 8 will go to the Celestial Kingdom.

If you look at historical and current infant mortality rates, there will be billions and billions of souls in the Celestial Kingdom if only because they died before reaching accountability. There may be some Mormons and others who do the "obedience and ordinances" thing, but it couldn't be a significant number (especially if post-mortal conversion rates are anything like mortal ones).

As for the plan itself, my biggest disappointment is that this is the best God (or the men who made it up) could come up with. It would work fine if everything was predetermined, but once you factor in the unknown factor of agency, it becomes one big mess verging on becoming pointless. A plan like "The Plan of Salvation" would be impossible to swallow without being able to make up whatever you want about the pre and post-existence.

But many of the points in the first post can be answered with "progression between the kingdoms." Surely God will allow those who wish to make covenants and be obedient to do so and receive their reward, whether they make this decision when they are 8 earth-years old, or 500 billion Kolob years old. For an eternal being who wants only for his children to attain immortality and eternal life, the idea of a deadline is silly. A deadline is only useful if you really want someone to give you 10% of their money right now.

Link to comment

Here is the problem.

In this life, we have no evidence to suggest that the CK even exists. As a matter of fact, there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest otherwise. If I believed according to what I have learned, I would have to choose the notion that we are, in essence, worm food.

Now, if I die, and now *know* there is an afterlife, the test is much easier for me, since it is no longer a matter of faith. Some test. Why should the people who never even heard of the BoM get the easy way out?

But this brings me to another problem. Einstein said it best.

"Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.â?
Link to comment

In this life, we have no evidence to suggest that the CK even exists. As a matter of fact, there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest otherwise.

What evidence is there that suggests the Celestial Kingdom doesn't exist?

Edit: that's probably a thread derailment.

Still editing: And, if you believe it doesn't exist, does that mean you also believe it will never exist?

Link to comment

Now, if I die, and now *know* there is an afterlife, the test is much easier for me, since it is no longer a matter of faith. Some test. Why should the people who never even heard of the BoM get the easy way out?

Exactly. That doesn't seem fair at all, does it? Especially considering this comment:

Paul Ray:

And btw, those who know about it sooner, here, and reject it, here, won't get the grand prize.

Of course that's only those of us who are unfortunate enough to have lived past the age of eight. (Can you imagine how bummed you would be if you died the day after your eighth birthday and then found out you just missed getting a free ticket to the highest kingdom?)

However, I will concede that the LDS doctrine regarding a "second chance" in the afterlife is much more equitable than the traditional Christian concept that we must accept Jesus in this life to be saved. I have to give Prophet Smith credit for realizing that was a problem and coming up with an innovative solution.

Link to comment

What evidence is there that suggests the Celestial Kingdom doesn't exist?

Edit: that's probably a thread derailment.

Still editing: And, if you believe it doesn't exist, does that mean you also believe it will never exist?

Sorry but the burden of proof lies on you to prove it does exist, not on us to prove it doesn't.

It's a fantastic claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence.

Link to comment

Sorry but the burden of proof lies on you to prove it does exist, not on us to prove it doesn't.

It's a fantastic claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence.

I was not making any claims as to whether it exists, and I'm not insisting you believe in it. I was asking Caudicus to clarify what evidence he was referring to when he said, "there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest otherwise." It seems he has assumed the burden of proof himself.

Link to comment

First, you're not seriously asking me to do the math for you between how many Mormons that have ever existed vs the entire population of everyone that has ever existed, are you???

Second, why can't God allow for more of us to know about these unalterable and eternal principles??? Seems like a pretty weak plan to me.

You still didn't answer my CFR. I'm not asking for a number, I'm asking for a reference for the context of your claim; namely, that "incredibly few souls" will learn what they need in life in order to progress. You seem to think one must be Mormon in order to do that fully. I am asking for a reference on that claim; not for a number of people. The CFR stands.

Meanwhile, I'll leave you with a thought from John Taylor:

"There are Catholicism, Presbyterianism, and all other isms, the advocates of which worship the same God, though their doctrine, precepts, and belief are not the same; they think differently, and worship differently, and each party sends to hell, in a wholesale manner, all who differ from them! And if God was no more merciful than they are, we should find ourselves all there together...

"I can see something more than that mean jargon, those childish quibbles, this heaven beyond the bounds of time and space, where they have nothing to do but sit and sing themselves away to everlasting bliss, or go and roast on gridirons...

"â?¦the religious world generallyâ?¦packs off his neighbor to hell; and after such narrow minds have made their selections of the worthy ones, and put them right, as they think, few besides will get to heaven. Others will take every body to heaven, no matter who or what they are. I think the latter idea is as ridiculous as the former, although there is something more pleasing in the last idea, I must confess, than in the other. The only thing I would hate in it, is being associated with a multitude of cut-throats and blacklegs there...

"â?¦am I to think it is right, because I am right, to send every body else to hell? No, I will leave them in the hands of God. He has told me to preach the Gospel to every creature, saying, "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall be damned." He has told me to do this. And how many millions of mankind are there who have never heard the Gospel? And are they going to be damned for not believing in a thing they have not heard, and that never came within their range, and that they have not the slightest knowledge of? No. What is it we have to do? We must spread forth the light of the Gospel. Why? Because God has communicated a system of religion which is calculated to ennoble and exalt the human family...

"...It is difficult for them to comprehend correct principles when they hear them, or to know the light when they see it shine. The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not. They understand many things, perhaps better than you do, but they do not understand the principles of the Gospel as you do, for want of the light of the Spirit of God. No man can understand that without the Spirit."

(Journal of Discourses 1:147-160)

Link to comment
The term, "calling and election made sure" from the Bible would seem to indicate the testing is over -- if a person truly has their "calling and election made sure", then they will not be proved again to see if they are worthy of the Celestial Kingdom.
I suspect very few people, in this life, will probably have their calling and election made sure. But for those that do, I have no quibble with saying their "testing" is over.

The suggestion that "life as a test" is unfair because so few will achieve the knowledge/opportunity to respond appropriately to enter the Celestial Kingdom I think is based on some unfounded assumptions. So here I are some corrections I propose (as have been suggested by other posters):

  1. This life tests what we are willing to learn... we are only responsible for the light and truth we receive on earth.
  2. There we be a heck of a lot to learn and do even after we die.
  3. Ordinances will are necessary for the greatest rewards will be available to all eventually, irrespective of their willingness to accept them.
  4. Some have been given an undeniable head-start in progression by a greater mortal knowledge. But a head-start does not mean exclusion of others with no similar advantage.

The first 2 points are, in my view, consistent with D&C 88:29-31. Viewed this way, I have no problem with life as a test. It even makes me comfortable with the idea of infants dying getting their "free pass" to the Celestial Kingdom.

Link to comment

You still didn't answer my CFR. I'm not asking for a number, I'm asking for a reference for the context of your claim; namely, that "incredibly few souls" will learn what they need in life in order to progress. You seem to think one must be Mormon in order to do that fully. I am asking for a reference on that claim; not for a number of people. The CFR stands.

Meanwhile, I'll leave you with a thought from John Taylor:

(Journal of Discourses 1:147-160)

Lets break this down.

Mormons believe that they have the whole truth. When they die, they will have little need of the afterlife missionary discussions because they will have learned most of it on Earth. Sure, there may be some clarifications, but on the whole, LDS pretty much know it all.

They also believe that anyone that is not Mormon will need to accept the gospel before they can continue on. Hence the need for missionaries in the afterlife.

Now, refactoring in Cinepro's comment that those that die under 8 get a free pass, everyone that has ever lived that is not a Mormon will need to accept the Gospel in the afterlife. THAT is where the test is. No matter if you were Mother Teresa or a Colombian drug lord, you still get the same chance in the afterlife to accept the gospel. And since the drug lord that murdered hundreds of innocent people didn't know what he was doing, he can still repent and make it to the CK. Mother Teresa may deny the Gospel in the afterlife and be condemned to the Telestial kingdom.

Do you see my point here?

I suspect very few people, in this life, will probably have their calling and election made sure. But for those that do, I have no quibble with saying their "testing" is over.

The suggestion that "life as a test" is unfair because so few will achieve the knowledge/opportunity to respond appropriately to enter the Celestial Kingdom I think is based on some unfounded assumptions. So here I are some corrections I propose (as have been suggested by other posters):

  1. This life tests what we are willing to learn... we are only responsible for the light and truth we receive on earth.
  2. There we be a heck of a lot to learn and do even after we die.
  3. Ordinances will are necessary for the greatest rewards will be available to all eventually, irrespective of their willingness to accept them.
  4. Some have been given an undeniable head-start in progression by a greater mortal knowledge. But a head-start does not mean exclusion of others with no similar advantage.

The first 2 points are, in my view, consistent with D&C 88:29-31. Viewed this way, I have no problem with life as a test. It even makes me comfortable with the idea of infants dying getting their "free pass" to the Celestial Kingdom.

So what you are saying is that this life isn't so much a test as a learning experience. The true test will be in the afterlife?

Link to comment

Lets break this down.

Mormons believe that they have the whole truth. When they die, they will have little need of the afterlife missionary discussions because they will have learned most of it on Earth. Sure, there may be some clarifications, but on the whole, LDS pretty much know it all.

They also believe that anyone that is not Mormon will need to accept the gospel before they can continue on. Hence the need for missionaries in the afterlife.

Now, refactoring in Cinepro's comment that those that die under 8 get a free pass, everyone that has ever lived that is not a Mormon will need to accept the Gospel in the afterlife. THAT is where the test is. No matter if you were Mother Teresa or a Colombian drug lord, you still get the same chance in the afterlife to accept the gospel. And since the drug lord that murdered hundreds of innocent people didn't know what he was doing, he can still repent and make it to the CK. Mother Teresa may deny the Gospel in the afterlife and be condemned to the Telestial kingdom.

Do you see my point here?

So what you are saying is that this life isn't so much a test as a learning experience. The true test will be in the afterlife?

I guess you missed the whole" it's not our place to figure out where so-and-so might end up in the afterlife" thing in Pres. Taylor's excerpt. [Also, I wouldn't throw Mother Theresa into the Telestial, even if she did outright reject the restored gospel. Some would disagree, even claim that she was a sadistic weirdo; thus we see we can not detrmine the heart of man. For all I really know, scottie, you may be closer on the path than I am, I don't know. I can worry about myself, try to encourage others, love God and others, and that's about it.]

As far as Mormons "knowing it all," there are some who may take this arrogant point of view. I've found this isn't the case: there are a LOT of things we don't know, yet. An awful lot. I recently did a blog post regarding this particular issue, here's a quote from Brigham Young on the topic:

â??Jesus said to his disciples, to them it was given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them that were without, it was not given. If we were to examine the subject closely, we should learn that a very scanty portion of the things of the kingdom were ever revealed, even to the disciples. If we were prepared to gaze upon the mysteries of the kingdom, as they are with God, we should then know that only very small portion of them has been handed out here and there. God, by His Spirit, has revealed many things to His people, but, in almost all cases, He has straightway shut up the vision of the mind. He will let His servants gaze upon eternal things for a moment, but straightway the vision is closed, and they are left as they were, that they may learn to act by faith, or as the Apostle has it, not walking by sight, but by faith.â? (JoD 1:264)

In that blog post I also cite one of my new-found mentors, Hugh B. Brown:

â??â?¦ while I believe all that God has revealed, I am not quite sure that I understand what he has revealed. The fact that he has promised further revelation is to me a challenge to keep an open mind and to be prepared to follow wherever my search for truth may leadâ?¦We have been blessed with much knowledge by revelation from God which, in some part, the world lacks. But there is an incomprehensibly greater part of truth which we must yet discover. Our revealed truth should leave us stricken with the knowledge of how little we really know. It should never lead to an emotional arrogance based upon a false assumption that we somehow have all the answers--that we in fact have a corner on truth, for we do notâ?¦ continue your search for truth. And maintain humility sufficient to be able to revise your hypotheses as new truth comes to you by means of the spirit or the mind. Salvation, like education, is an ongoing processâ?¦(An Eternal Quest--Freedom of the Mind, speech given to the BYU student body on May 13, 1969.)

I invite you to check out my blog post, maybe you can even leave a comment there; I'm thirsty for it!

Link to comment

I guess you missed the whole" it's not our place to figure out where so-and-so might end up in the afterlife" thing in Pres. Taylor's excerpt.

Ahhh...so this is one of those "he was speaking as a prophet, not a man because it supports what I want to say" things? Gotcha...
[Also, I wouldn't throw Mother Theresa into the Telestial, even if she did outright reject the restored gospel. Some would disagree, even claim that she was a sadistic weirdo; thus we see we can not detrmine the heart of man.
Well, unfortunately, it's not up to you who gets thrown in the Telestial Kingdom. There are eternal laws and no matter who you are on Earth, you MUST accept the gospel or suffer the consequences. Correct?
For all I really know, scottie, you may be closer on the path than I am, I don't know. I can worry about myself, try to encourage others, love God and others, and that's about it.]
I'm a pretty good and moral person, but I do drink coffee....so, I'm definitely not closer to the path than you!! :P
As far as Mormons "knowing it all," there are some who may take this arrogant point of view. I've found this isn't the case: there are a LOT of things we don't know, yet. An awful lot.
Then what exactly is the test? If even those that are supposed to have the entire textbook don't have everything they need to pass the test, why are we calling it a test??
Link to comment

Scottie: I could be reading you wrong, but I feel like you are being a little condescending in your response here. If I have put you off with a flippant remark I apologize. The "I guess you missed" was said in a little bout of frustration that you didn't really address my post, and if it was out of line I'm sorry.

Ahhh...so this is one of those "he was speaking as a prophet, not a man because it supports what I want to say" things? Gotcha...

It was actually more of a "he was speaking as a prophet, not a man because it supports the doctrine I've found in the scriptures, my personal beliefs about the goodness and abilities of God, bolstered by a personal spiritual confirmation" things.The point of "a prophet speaking as a man" has been discussed before, and maybe we can start another thread about it, but simply throwing this flippant remark in doesn't dismiss what Pres. Taylor said; and you still haven't responded to the quote.

Again, is the attitude here in jest, or am I wasting my breath? I usually like discussing things with you, but I'm getting a negative vibe here. I apologize if I've contributed to it.

Well, unfortunately, it's not up to you who gets thrown in the Telestial Kingdom. There are eternal laws and no matter who you are on Earth, you MUST accept the gospel or suffer the consequences. Correct?

As Pres. Taylor said, it's very fortunate that it isn't up to us where anyone goes -but ourselves. Yes, in order to be saved one must accept the gospel; but only God knows if they've had a proper chance or circumstance to do so, and I believe in His wisdom he can do more with us than we ever expect.

I'm a pretty good and moral person, but I do drink coffee....so, I'm definitely not closer to the path than you!! :P

But this puts sinning on a gradation level that I'm not entirely comfortable with. I know some sins are very very wrong; such as murder, rape, abuse, denying the holy Ghost, but as far as the [reluctantly called] 'lesser sins,' I really can't put a gauge on it. Is your coffee drinking more offensive to God than, say, my hypothetical temper or swearing? I don't know, and it's not my place to judge it, only to do the things I know to be good and try to avoid the things I know to be evil. It's like J. Golden said: "The brethren can't kick me out of the Church, I repent too fast." I don't quote that to make life seem like a time when we can sin about and repent at will- I mean to say we all make mistakes. The difference between a wicked and a righteous man is small: the "righteous man" so-called just realizes his position and wants to and tries to keep repenting.

Then what exactly is the test? If even those that are supposed to have the entire textbook don't have everything they need to pass the test, why are we calling it a test??

That's just it: Do they have everything? What would 'everything' constitute, then?

Lastly, if you're just ribbing me along a little that's fine, I just can't tell clearly because you and I don't know each other, and I, at least, don't know your posting style, etc. If you're just teasing for a little fun that's cool, but if you're making light of something I really believe, and being mean about it I prefer to not discuss it with you, bro.

(*edited to fix a "your/you're" error, ugh!)

Link to comment

Hope you pay attention to what LifeOnaPlate wrote about us not knowing everything. We don't, we don't claim to. We only claim that we have the best picture to tell about why we are here (as well as the claim to being an fully authoritative administrative branch of God's Kingdom).

No matter if you were Mother Teresa or a Colombian drug lord, you still get the same chance in the afterlife to accept the gospel.
That would be false. For sake of simplicity in comparison, let's assume the drug lord grew up well trained in a Catholic school (not an entirely far fetched assumption). Both individuals have a sense of right and wrong. Both individuals were taught some eternal principles which extend beyond merely knowing right and wrong. Yet, one acts consistent with the truths known and the other acts in defiance of the truths known.

In the after-life, the individual having developed character consistent with the truths known will be afforded opportunity to develop character consistent with further light and truth. The defiant individual, however, will be stuck trying to develop the same characteristics he tried to learn in life.

One individual will be placed in a "kingdom" with laws and principles appropriate her advancement in character and divinity and likewise suitable for the harmonious existence of a society of similar individuals.

One individual will be placed in a "kingdom" with laws and principles appropriate his advancement in character and divinity and likewise suitable for the harmonious existence of a society of similar individuals.

But they will not be the same kingdom. One will have greater freedoms, greater opportunities for joy and more rapid maturation. The other will be in a lesser state enjoying fewer freedoms and possibilities. It is most definitely now the time to repent and obey.

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. (D&C 130:18-19)
Link to comment
Then what exactly is the test? If even those that are supposed to have the entire textbook don't have everything they need to pass the test, why are we calling it a test??
Is it really our final "test"? And is test even the right word (though Abr 3:25 uses such language)?
The test is to see what we do with the light and truth that we are given -- if we will be obedient to it or act in defiance of it. It is not a test in the textbook sense. Opportunity may be a connotatively more appropriate term.
Link to comment

Scottie: I could be reading you wrong, but I feel like you are being a little condescending in your response here. If I have put you off with a flippant remark I apologize. The "I guess you missed" was said in a little bout of frustration that you didn't really address my post, and if it was out of line I'm sorry.

After re-reading what I posted, I can see how that came off as condescending. And, no, that was not my intention. My apologies for that.

And, to address what Pres Taylor said, yes, you are correct that we are in no place to judge. However, we know that there are eternal laws that must be followed. We know that the gospel must be accepted in the afterlife for those that didn't have a chance to accept it here. We know that most people will not receive the gospel here. Therefore, the only conclusion we can make is that the vast majority of people will have to receive the missionary discussions in the afterlife. I'm not trying to judge them at all. All I'm saying is that it seems silly to label this life as a test when, in fact, very few of us will actually be judged on what we do here since so very few of us have the complete rule book to even know what we're supposed to be doing here.

It was actually more of a "he was speaking as a prophet, not a man because it supports the doctrine I've found in the scriptures, my personal beliefs about the goodness and abilities of God, bolstered by a personal spiritual confirmation" things.The point of "a prophet speaking as a man" has been discussed before, and maybe we can start another thread about it, but simply throwing this flippant remark in doesn't dismiss what Pres. Taylor said; and you still haven't responded to the quote.
Fair enough. Again, my apologies if this came across as condescending.
That's just it: Do they have everything? What would 'everything' constitute, then?
I'm not quite understanding this....who is they? And, as far as a test goes, I would guess everything would be everything we need to make it back to God without having to learn more in the pre-judgement.
Lastly, if you're just ribbing me along a little that's fine, I just can't tell clearly because you and I don't know each other, and I, at least, don't know your posting style, etc. If you're just teasing for a little fun that's cool, but if you're making light of something I really believe, and being mean about it I prefer to not discuss it with you, bro.
Again, sorry if I came off that way. I do enjoy our discussions as well.
Link to comment

The test is to see what we do with the light and truth that we are given -- if we will be obedient to it or act in defiance of it. It is not a test in the textbook sense. Opportunity may be a connotatively more appropriate term.

Nicely stated in both posts.

Link to comment

Hope you pay attention to what LifeOnaPlate wrote about us not knowing everything. We don't, we don't claim to. We only claim that we have the best picture to tell about why we are here (as well as the claim to being an fully authoritative administrative branch of God's Kingdom).

That would be false. For sake of simplicity in comparison, let's assume the drug lord grew up well trained in a Catholic school (not an entirely far fetched assumption). Both individuals have a sense of right and wrong. Both individuals were taught some eternal principles which extend beyond merely knowing right and wrong. Yet, one acts consistent with the truths known and the other acts in defiance of the truths known.

In the after-life, the individual having developed character consistent with the truths known will be afforded opportunity to develop character consistent with further light and truth. The defiant individual, however, will be stuck trying to develop the same characteristics he tried to learn in life.

One individual will be placed in a "kingdom" with laws and principles appropriate her advancement in character and divinity and likewise suitable for the harmonious existence of a society of similar individuals.

One individual will be placed in a "kingdom" with laws and principles appropriate his advancement in character and divinity and likewise suitable for the harmonious existence of a society of similar individuals.

But they will not be the same kingdom. One will have greater freedoms, greater opportunities for joy and more rapid maturation. The other will be in a lesser state enjoying fewer freedoms and possibilities. It is most definitely now the time to repent and obey.

Lets go further with your analogy.

The Catholic has learned from birth that as long as you accept Jesus, you are saved. Works don't matter. So, in his mind, the murdering of these people have nothing to do with his salvation. After all, he has accepted Jesus. Why, he may even do a penance for everyone he murders, thereby absolving him from his sins. He has lived his life in accordance to the teachings he has received, and in his mind, should be saved from hell.

Now, according to LDS theology, when he dies, he will be given an opportunity to see the error of his ways. He will learn that, in fact, works DO matter. He will be taught the gospel. He will be given the chance to accept and repent. If he chooses to accept and repent, he will be given a kingdom of glory.

So do you see my point? This life is not the test for the vast majority of us. Only the miniscule few LDS that have the gospel on earth can be judged by what we do on earth.

Opportunity may be a connotatively more appropriate term.

I can agree with this. However, that is "the gospel according to Scottie and Nofear".
Link to comment

After re-reading what I posted, I can see how that came off as condescending. And, no, that was not my intention. My apologies for that.

And, to address what Pres Taylor said, yes, you are correct that we are in no place to judge. However, we know that there are eternal laws that must be followed. We know that the gospel must be accepted in the afterlife for those that didn't have a chance to accept it here. We know that most people will not receive the gospel here. Therefore, the only conclusion we can make is that the vast majority of people will have to receive the missionary discussions in the afterlife. I'm not trying to judge them at all. All I'm saying is that it seems silly to label this life as a test when, in fact, very few of us will actually be judged on what we do here since so very few of us have the complete rule book to even know what we're supposed to be doing here.

Fair enough. Again, my apologies if this came across as condescending.

I'm not quite understanding this....who is they? And, as far as a test goes, I would guess everything would be everything we need to make it back to God without having to learn more in the pre-judgement.

Again, sorry if I came off that way. I do enjoy our discussions as well.

Cool.

Ok, I think the main point of discussion is how to reconcile scriptures like Alma 34:32: "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors..." with the concept of opportunities for everyone, including after mortal death.

To reconcile these there are many different scriptures; and maybe some other folks can pitch in on it. I've found several that reconcile it, but I wanna let some other people sound off a little.

I will say, keep in mind, scottie, that you and are are literally, currently in "eternity." We tend to see time in a linear fashion, and that makes some of these concepts hard to grasp. So, as far as a "second chance," I don't really believe there is one, necessarilly, based on the fact that the path you are on-good or evil- is the same path. It depends which way you are facing, for how long, and etc.

Link to comment
Now, refactoring in Cinepro's comment that those that die under 8 get a free pass, everyone that has ever lived that is not a Mormon will need to accept the Gospel in the afterlife. THAT is where the test is. No matter if you were Mother Teresa or a Colombian drug lord, you still get the same chance in the afterlife to accept the gospel.

The revelation on this is pretty clear, so I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. I should note that this is my favorite kind of scripture: contemporary, given in English, unambiguous, and canonized.

D&C 137

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Based on this verse, it appears the whole "they'll have to accept it in the afterlife" idea hadn't really dawned on Joseph yet. There were only three options given: either someone turns 8 and accepts the gospel in this life, or, God could give them a pass if they would have accepted it in this life but didn't have the chance (and they died after turning 8 ). Or finally, anyone who dies before turning 8 goes to the CK without needing to make any further choices or taking any tests.

The whole idea of post-mortal spirits making choices and being tested and angels doing missionary work doesn't seem to have come along until later (and, like many of our ideas about the pre and post-mortal worlds, may be non-canonical and possibly incorrect).

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...