Forgiveness Of Sins As Taught In The D&c.

[Mormon Vader]

D&C 1:31-32:

"...I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven."

Part of the disdain I see some have for Mormons is because of scriptures like these two. "Where is the grace of God? You are trying to save yourselves," is what I hear and read.

What I see in these two scriptures is an infinite loop (in programming terms).

1. If you make a mistake, repent.

2. But to be forgiven, you must keep the commandments.

3. (repeat)

Huh? What?

Can someone tell me how repentance works again?

[jadams_4242]

D&C 1:31-32:

"...I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven."

Part of the disdain I see some have for Mormons is because of scriptures like these two. "Where is the grace of God? You are trying to save yourselves," is what I hear and read.

What I see in these two scriptures is an infinite loop (in programming terms).

1. If you make a mistake, repent.

2. But to be forgiven, you must keep the commandments.

3. (repeat)

Huh? What?

Can someone tell me how repentance works again?

You cannott go and keep robbing banks, then repent and be forgiven, Then either does

living the cammamdments do the same. We do BOTH ALL THE TIME, not just when we sin.

when we make a "mistake" we need to repent w/allhonesty ,humility,and trueness of heart,

not simply repent to god then we are allright again, When we sin on purpose {knowingly}

Thats when we have a whole lot more proving to the lord that we are "truely" sorry

{not lip service} And the process is much more tuffer, than if one makes a mistake and sin.

And as i said we all need to live the commandments ALL THE TIME.

[Mormon Vader]

You cannott go and keep robbing banks, then repent and be forgiven, Then either does

living the cammamdments do the same. We do BOTH ALL THE TIME, not just when we sin.

when we make a "mistake" we need to repent w/allhonesty ,humility,and trueness of heart,

not simply repent to god then we are allright again, When we sin on purpose {knowingly}

Thats when we have a whole lot more proving to the lord that we are "truely" sorry

{not lip service} And the process is much more tuffer, than if one makes a mistake and sin.

And as i said we all need to live the commandments ALL THE TIME.

I think I am going to be short about $1500.00 on my investment property payment that is due in 5 days. If I send you my e-mail address and a link to set up a PayPal account, would you send me that $1500.00 so that I can pay for my investment property?

If you can't pay me the whole amount, anything you have will do. I also can't promise to pay you back, but I will try.

What do you think? Can you help me out on this?

[Mormon Vader]

D&C 1:31-32:

"...I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven."

Part of the disdain I see some have for Mormons is because of scriptures like these two. "Where is the grace of God? You are trying to save yourselves," is what I hear and read.

What I see in these two scriptures is an infinite loop (in programming terms).

1. If you make a mistake, repent.

2. But to be forgiven, you must keep the commandments.

3. (repeat)

Huh? What?

Can someone tell me how repentance works again?

And one more thing that is confusing to me (a lifelong member that apparently didn't pay enough attention in his Sunday School and seminary/institute classes):

Read this phrase again: "...he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven." The Lord will forgive you if you keep the commandments (but if you keep the commandments, what do you need to repent of?).

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think I am going to be short about $1500.00 on my investment property payment that is due in 5 days. If I send you my e-mail address and a link to set up a PayPal account, would you send me that $1500.00 so that I can pay for my investment property?

If you can't pay me the whole amount, anything you have will do. I also can't promise to pay you back, but I will try.

What do you think? Can you help me out on this?

The doctrine contained there is pretty simple: repent and do your best to avoid what you already know is wrong. That's common sense, in any relationship. When it involves God we can seek his grace and see our natures actually change.

[Mormon Vader]

The doctrine contained there is pretty simple: repent and do your best to avoid what you already know is wrong. That's common sense, in any relationship. When it involves God we can seek his grace and see our natures actually change.

While I agree with you, D&C 1 doesn't say "try your best." It says, more or less, keep the commandments if you want forgiveness.

Should we just assume Christ means try your best?

[Dale]

Everybody commits the same sin's twice. It's impossible to cease all sins in life. If totally ceasing sinwas required then everybody would go to outer darkness. (Jame's 2:10) The scripture in D.&C. 1:31-32 talks about a person being forgiven before they get rid of all sin in their lives. It's the sin God won't excuse not the sinner who he forgives that is guilty of certain sins.

When LDS talk of Celestial law don't confuse that with the different law in Jame's 2:10. In LDS belief a person who breaks Celestial law may still be keeping terrestrial, or telestial law. The person may still as long as the type of debt taught in Jame's 2:10 has been finally paid for be saved from outerdarknes. They recieved a degree of salvation. Not being forgiven under Celestial law isn't the same as losing your forgiveness of the type of guilt Jame's 2:10 teaches. The type of guilt James was talking of will lead to failing both judgements, and being sent to outer darkness, the lake of fire, or hell. LDS prefer to treat hell as a temporary place and outer darkness it's permanant replacement.

In LDS theology a lot more grace exists than you have been told. To save persons from going to outer darknes who havn't cleared all sin out of their lives is a mighty act of grace. The persons saved from outer darkness didn't deserve it, but were saved anyway. That to me is an act of unmerited grace.

Hebrews 10:26 say's "For if we willfully persist in sin after having recieved the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.' Who doesn't willfilly persist in sin? Doesn't sound to me like the Lord look's upon sin with allowance. Sounds to me like the person must repent and do the commandments of the Lord in order to be forgiven. Why does Hebrews 10:26 have grace and D.&C. 1:31,32 have no grace? Where is the grace in the verse I have found in Hebrews for forgiveness?

[LifeOnaPlate]

While I agree with you, D&C 1 doesn't say "try your best." It says, more or less, keep the commandments if you want forgiveness.

Should we just assume Christ means try your best?

What commandments, though?

[Hint: check the sacrament prayers for more info. This is why isolation scriptures without the whole are not advisable to base entire systems on.]

[Mormon Vader]

Everybody commits the same sin's twice. It's impossible to cease all sins in life. If totally ceasing sinwas required then everybody would go to outer darkness. (Jame's 2:10) The scripture in D.&C. 1:31-32 talks about a person being forgiven before they get rid of all sin in their lives. It's the sin God won't excuse not the sinner who he forgives that is guilty of certain sins.

When LDS talk of Celestial law don't confuse that with the different law in Jame's 2:10. In LDS belief a person who breaks Celestial law may still be keeping terrestrial, or telestial law. The person may still as long as the type of debt taught in Jame's 2:10 has been finally paid for be saved from outerdarknes. They recieved a degree of salvation. Not being forgiven under Celestial law isn't the same as losing your forgiveness of the type of guilt Jame's 2:10 teaches. The type of guilt James was talking of will lead to failing both judgements, and being sent to outer darkness, the lake of fire, or hell. LDS prefer to treat hell as a temporary place and outer darkness it's permanant replacement.

In LDS theology a lot more grace exists than you have been told. To save persons from going to outer darknes who havn't cleared all sin out of their lives is a mighty act of grace. The persons saved from outer darkness didn't deserve it, but were saved anyway. That to me is an act of unmerited grace.

Hebrews 10:26 say's "For if we willfully persist in sin after having recieved the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.' Who doesn't willfilly persist in sin? Doesn't sound to me like the Lord look's upon sin with allowance. Sounds to me like the person must repent and do the commandments of the Lord in order to be forgiven. Why does Hebrews 10:26 have grace and D.&C. 1:31,32 have no grace? Where is the grace in the verse I have found in Hebrews for forgiveness?

I apologize for writing this, but I read your post and don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you try to explain this to me again? Thank you.

[Mormon Vader]

What commandments, though?

[Hint: check the sacrament prayers for more info. This is why isolation scriptures without the whole are not advisable to base entire systems on.]

keep the commandments which He has given? That would mean all of them. Is that what you are talking about? (Man, I feel so dull...so unenlightened in this thread.)

[LifeOnaPlate]

keep the commandments which He has given? That would mean all of them. Is that what you are talking about? (Man, I feel so dull...so unenlightened in this thread.)

I recommend you read "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson. You can get it for 5 bucks at Deseret Book.

[Mormon Vader]

I recommend you read "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson. You can get it for 5 bucks at Deseret Book.

I have the book, read it years ago; I guess I should read it again.

[Deborah]

1. If you make a mistake, repent.

2. But to be forgiven, you must keep the commandments.

3. (repeat)

Huh? What?

You are making a circular argument where there is none. Part of repentance is then striving to live all the commandments. Being human, we will make mistakes again and each time we must repent and strive once again to live all the commandments. The Lord knows we will not be perfect in this and is willing to forgive each time we sincerely try to turn our lives around. We don't have to be perfect in obedience; we do have to be always striving and heading in the right direction. Repentance in other words is a work in progress, not a one time deal.

[Nimrod_clone]

MorgBot

I don't know if I have an answer yet for your theological question, however I don't know if you have interpreted the word "commandments" as it is understood from the context of Section 1. The word "Commandments" is used from verse 24 onwards (see vs. 24,30,31,37), seems to use the word interchangeably with "revelation"(?). Meaning the revelations in the book of commandments (as it was known then). It seems to have a larger context then just "law" or "rules". In other words it seems to be saying that the people who exercise the power offered through the restoration, and bring the church out of obscurity, and proclaim the revelations will be forgiven.

I don't think it is a simple blanket rule that says you must keep x to gain y. Verse 33 also suggests that there is a "grace" period offered to sinners anyway. The spirit withdraws from the unrepentant, suggesting to me, that it is a gradual process not something that is simply switched on and off. If this is true why can it not work in reverse, i.e. although we may not keep the commandments (rules, laws,etc..) perfectly, if we are striving to keep the commandments then it shows a repentant attitude and thus we are forgiven.

NC

[Dale]

Hebrews 10:26 is an exact match for the content of D.&C. 1:31,32. I don't read the verses from the D.&C. as saying you have to cease all sin at the time you recieve forgiveness. certain sin's will continue even after the person recieves forgiveness.

Because LDS don't talk of salvation from going to hell only, and stress so much obedience that person's don't see grace in LDS theology. Person's in LDS belief get saved from hell who arn't perfectly living the commandments. In order to get the the celestial kingdom LDS stress what is called keeping celestial law.

D.&C. 76 can be accessed online and can explain the concept of salvation to the kingdom's better than I can. But the kingdom in LDS belief heaven has three kingdom's not just one place. The idea of a single heaven, and hell is not LDS belief.

What in my statement are you confused about?

[cdowis]

And one more thing that is confusing to me (a lifelong member that apparently didn't pay enough attention in his Sunday School and seminary/institute classes):

Read this phrase again: "...he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven." The Lord will forgive you if you keep the commandments (but if you keep the commandments, what do you need to repent of?).

I am sorry that you feel it necessary that the church teachers need to spoonfeed you.

Keeping the commandments is part of the repentence process. You cannot repent unless, as part of that repentence process, you try to stop the sin and start keeping the commandments.

Now, I figured that out from reading the scriptures.

[Mormon Vader]

I am sorry that you feel it necessary that the church teachers need to spoonfeed you.

Are you sure you are in the group Spam Busters?

I think it is Spam Bust-Outs.

[karl61]

nobody got it right:

you are either in one of two states: your sinful nature is in remission or it is not (baptisim by immersion for the remission - turning away from - of sins. If you die in remission then you are in good shape but if you die and you have not turned away from your sinful nature then things are not going to be too hot. If you are in remission, that's when LDS believe the atonement kicks in and washes away the dirt.

its two plus two

[Del March]

D&C 1:31-32:

"...I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven."

Part of the disdain I see some have for Mormons is because of scriptures like these two. "Where is the grace of God? You are trying to save yourselves," is what I hear and read.

That might be true if repenting and following the commandments was enough, in itself, to have our sins erased. However, it is not. No amount of repenting, and no matter how perfectly we follow the commandments, can erase our sins. We just don't have that power. Only God has that power. And He offers us a deal: "repent and follow the commandments, and I, God, will erase your sins". Anyone who thinks they can erase their own sins by being "righteous" or "perfect", forgets by which power sins actually get erased: the power of the Atonement.

What I see in these two scriptures is an infinite loop (in programming terms).

1. If you make a mistake, repent.

2. But to be forgiven, you must keep the commandments.

3. (repeat)

Huh? What?

This would be an infinite loop if "keeping the commandments" left no room for "making a mistake". This is not the case, though. Making mistakes is an integral part of keeping the commandments. Deliberately sinning is not, but making mistakes is.

Along the same idea: you seem to think that perfectly keeping the commandments would automatically make someone perfect-like-God, sinless, and mistake-free. Again, this is not true. One can keep the commandments perfectly, ie: to the very best of their knowledge and abilities, and still make mistakes and fall way short of the perfection of Christ and God. It's no coincidence if the only person who ever lived a sinless and god-perfect life was a god Himself: only someone who was a god could have the ability to live a sinless and mistake-free life. We humans are limited by our human condition: by definition, our "perfection" is flawed. So any human being who would live "perfectly" would still live imperfectly by God's standards.

Can someone tell me how repentance works again?

You sin, or you make a mistake. You go "Oops! I'm sorry God, please forgive me!" and you show your desire to be really forgiven by accepting all the commandments and deciding to keep them all from now on. God erases your sin.

Two minutes later, you sin or make a mistake again. The process repeats.

This is why repentance is both a process and a state of mind. On the one hand, there is the process itself, which we go through repeatedly throughout our lives. But on the other hand, there is the mindset, which is an acknowledgement that we will keep making mistakes all our life, coupled with a resolution to always try and keep the commandments at best we can, and a spirit of deep gratitude that thanks to the Atonement, God take us imperfect mortals and make us into perfect gods through a personal union with His Son.

[BCSpace]

Part of the disdain I see some have for Mormons is because of scriptures like these two. "Where is the grace of God? You are trying to save yourselves," is what I hear and read.

What I see in these two scriptures is an infinite loop (in programming terms).

1. If you make a mistake, repent.

2. But to be forgiven, you must keep the commandments.

3. (repeat)

Huh? What?

Can someone tell me how repentance works again?

The Grace is in the fact that if we should serve God with our whole souls, yet we would be unprofitable servants (Mosiah 2:21). Hence it is not the obedience, repentence, and works that save us. They are merely requirements activating the freely given Grace that saves. You have to accept, unwrap, and make use of the gift.

Mormons understand Grace better than any other Christian and that because we are the only ones whose doctrine takes into account all verses on faith, grace, and works.

[Neighbor]

Everybody commits the same sin's twice. It's impossible to cease all sins in life. If totally ceasing sinwas required then everybody would go to outer darkness. (Jame's 2:10) The scripture in D.&C. 1:31-32 talks about a person being forgiven before they get rid of all sin in their lives. It's the sin God won't excuse not the sinner who he forgives that is guilty of certain sins.

When LDS talk of Celestial law don't confuse that with the different law in Jame's 2:10. In LDS belief a person who breaks Celestial law may still be keeping terrestrial, or telestial law. The person may still as long as the type of debt taught in Jame's 2:10 has been finally paid for be saved from outerdarknes. They recieved a degree of salvation. Not being forgiven under Celestial law isn't the same as losing your forgiveness of the type of guilt Jame's 2:10 teaches. The type of guilt James was talking of will lead to failing both judgements, and being sent to outer darkness, the lake of fire, or hell. LDS prefer to treat hell as a temporary place and outer darkness it's permanant replacement.

In LDS theology a lot more grace exists than you have been told. To save persons from going to outer darknes who havn't cleared all sin out of their lives is a mighty act of grace. The persons saved from outer darkness didn't deserve it, but were saved anyway. That to me is an act of unmerited grace.

Hebrews 10:26 say's "For if we willfully persist in sin after having recieved the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.' Who doesn't willfilly persist in sin? Doesn't sound to me like the Lord look's upon sin with allowance. Sounds to me like the person must repent and do the commandments of the Lord in order to be forgiven. Why does Hebrews 10:26 have grace and D.&C. 1:31,32 have no grace? Where is the grace in the verse I have found in Hebrews for forgiveness?

When looking back to Leviticus and the sacrificial system involved for forgiveness of sins, it is interesting to note that deliberate sins were not included in the sins covered by the blood. Yet Paul made the comment of 'wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me'?paraphrased. It is deeper understanding that makes sense of Johns words where he said 'the man of God cannot sin', and in another place says 'confess your sins and God is faithful to forgive them'.

The baptism of Paul was sufficient to have the power to forgive his sins of persecution of the Church, even consenting to the death of Christs disciples. In at least one place Scriptures speak of baptism forgiving past sins. I don't recall that the apostles taught that baptism gave anyone a 'get out of hell free card'.

God is greater than man, and He commanded that we forgive 70 times seven in a day if our brother sins against us and repents and asks our forgiveness. That brings it squarely back to repentance and confession of of our sins to God, as well as the true principles of restitution whenever possible. Isn't God about restoring things?, be it souls from sin or the ravages Satan reaps in our lives?

All things work for the good to them that love the Lord. Love is a verb. Jesus said 'If you love Me you will keep My commandments'.

I understand the LDS principle, but think the points are well made in the Holy Bible enough that we don't need any added Scripture to get the truth of the gospel of God.

[LifeOnaPlate]

When looking back to Leviticus and the sacrificial system involved for forgiveness of sins, it is interesting to note that deliberate sins were not included in the sins covered by the blood. Yet Paul made the comment of 'wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me'?paraphrased. It is deeper understanding that makes sense of Johns words where he said 'the man of God cannot sin', and in another place says 'confess your sins and God is faithful to forgive them'.

The baptism of Paul was sufficient to have the power to forgive his sins of persecution of the Church, even consenting to the death of Christs disciples. In at least one place Scriptures speak of baptism forgiving past sins. I don't recall that the apostles taught that baptism gave anyone a 'get out of hell free card'.

God is greater than man, and He commanded that we forgive 70 times seven in a day if our brother sins against us and repents and asks our forgiveness. That brings it squarely back to repentance and confession of of our sins to God, as well as the true principles of restitution whenever possible. Isn't God about restoring things?, be it souls from sin or the ravages Satan reaps in our lives?

All things work for the good to them that love the Lord. Love is a verb. Jesus said 'If you love Me you will keep My commandments'.

I understand the LDS principle, but think the points are well made in the Holy Bible enough that we don't need any added Scripture to get the truth of the gospel of God.

I think the myriad of interpretational [is that a word?] differences would tend to disagree. And those in the bible never had a book sufficient enough to lead them in all points; they always had revelation from God.

[Neighbor]

I think the myriad of interpretational [is that a word?] differences would tend to disagree. And those in the bible never had a book sufficient enough to lead them in all points; they always had revelation from God.

That is why not everyone is to be a teacher, and that teachers will have greater judgment than the students.

Yet we are a blessed generation and society that has full access to the Holy Scriptures, yet look how few care enough to read and study the words from God. At one time people cared about what God had to say.

I've seen enough threads here over the years to know that teachings from all LDS scriptures as well as teachings of the prophets of the LDS Church are also in need of 'interpretation'.

Everyone I know into Gods word receives new 'revelation' from God when they study and read it. It is God revealing His word by His Spirit - indeed the depths of revelation from the word and Spirit are deep enough that no man can contain the revelations that are possible in a single lifetime.

That's why we should share what we learn with others. "Think on these things"

[dude]

MorgBot, I've thought exactly the same things you have, and still struggle with it.

These are some things that have helped me come to terms with this catch-22. I'm not saying I'm right, but these are just thoughts:

1. Maybe it's supposed to be a catch-22. Maybe "be ye therefore perfect" is an intentional set-up for failure so we would be humble and seek out a savior. (Adam and Eve had a few catch-22's. Eve was framed by the way) I'm not saying Jesus didn't mean what he said, but he said alot of things with hidden meanings.

2. Or maybe "perfect" is better translated "complete". I agree with Del March that the attitude of repentance should be a constant way of life, not a thing I do once a week during the sacrament. And the quicker I come to accept my shortcomings and sins and just keep trying, the better. Applying the atonement is a state of mind or attitude. It's not an event that I do once in a while. She mentioned gratitude and I think that's the key.

3. Maybe "keep the commandments" is a general term, like Robinson suggests, as meaning just "being in the covenant",,,,meaning just not falling away or doing something so bad that by definition means willfully leaving the covenant, or resulting in being outside the covenant. I think of excommunication here.

This might be the D&C context that best fits, because Joseph was constantly dealing with those who wanted to repent and come back to the fold, who were excommunicated, and his instruction was always "you are forgiven, come back and join the saints and keep the commandments" which basically meant to do GENERALLY what you need to do to get back on the path. I would define that as living generally good enough to feel the spirit and have it guide you, then proceed from there. Salvation is a direction, not a destination.

I know these are generalities.