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More Proof The Book Of Mormon Is True!


consiglieri

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(I previously posted the following under an ill-chosen topic title that did little to draw attention to a post I humbly think to be of some importance. I have therefore reposted it here under a more controversial title.)

Preparing for Sunday school last night, I was reading the Oxford Bible Commentary on Matthew 26:36-46 (p. 880) where is described Jesus' praying in the garden of Gethsemane:

Following the exposition (vv. 36-38) is an alternating series of triads--three prayers of Jesus and three encounters between Jesus and the sleeping disciples. The three prayers (vv. 39, 42, 44) display much parallelism, as do the scenes in which Jesus speaks with his disciples. The whole is dominated by Jesus' speech. Four times he speaks to his disciples and three times he prays. (Asking for something three times expresses earnestness, cf. 2 Cor 12:8 ) The three parallel prayers exhibit a literary technique found elsewhere (cf. Josh 6:12-14.)

While Jesus' first and second prayers are quoted, his third is just summarized ('saying the same words'). This recalls 20:1-16, wherein we hear the instructions given to the labourers hired at the early hour and the third hour but not the instructions given to those hired at the sixth and ninth hours. Of these last we are simply told: 'he (the housholder] did the same'. Similar is 27:39-44, which quotes the mockery of two groups but says of a third: they 'also taunted him in the same way'.

This "literary technique" made me think of Jesus' three-fold prayer in 3 Nephi 19, which follows precisely the same pattern as in Matthew 26. The three prayers are found in 3 Nephi 19: 19-23, 27-29, and 31-32. The prayers are parallel to each other. Further, the words to the last prayer are not given, because it is explained that tongue cannot speak nor can words be written to capture what Jesus prayed the third time.

As I considered this more, it seems that Jesus' visit to the Nephites is structured around groups of three.

Jesus visited the Nephites for THREE days, at the beginning of which is a THREE-fold announcement of Jesus by the voice from heaven (11:6-7), at the center of which (the second day) is Jesus THREE-fold prayer mentioned above, and the end of which finds Jesus setting apart the THREE Nephites (28:12).

It might be added that Jesus also teaches about three groups of "sheep" he visits: (1) the Jews; (2) the Nephites; and, (3) an unspecified third group he will visit after he departs. (16:1).

I think this structure of Jesus' visit to the Nephites is interesting, and certainly falls into the Biblical "literary technique" identified by the Oxford Bible Commentary.

I would agree that the fact this all occurs in the Third Book of Nephi is likely a coincidence. On the other hand, it has long been wondered why there is a Second Book of Nephi. If there were no Second Book of Nephi, there would be no Third Book of Nephi. Is it possible the editor of the work purposely created a Second Book of Nephi so that Jesus' visit, structured around sets of three, would be recounted in the Third Book of Nephi?

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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(I previously posted the following under an ill-chosen topic title that did little to draw attention to a post I humbly think to be of some importance. I have therefore reposted it here under a more controversial title.)

Preparing for Sunday school last night, I was reading the Oxford Bible Commentary on Matthew 26:36-46 (p. 880) where is described Jesus' praying in the garden of Gethsemane:

This "literary technique" made me think of Jesus' three-fold prayer in 3 Nephi 19, which follows precisely the same pattern as in Matthew 26. The three prayers are found in 3 Nephi 19: 19-23, 27-29, and 31-32. The prayers are parallel to each other. Further, the words to the last prayer are not given, because it is explained that tongue cannot speak nor can words be written to capture what Jesus prayed the third time.

As I considered this more, it seems that Jesus' visit to the Nephites is structured around groups of three.

Jesus visited the Nephites for THREE days, at the beginning of which is a THREE-fold announcement of Jesus by the voice from heaven (11:6-7), at the center of which (the second day) is Jesus THREE-fold prayer mentioned above, and the end of which finds Jesus setting apart the THREE Nephites (28:12).

It might be added that Jesus also teaches about three groups of "sheep" he visits: (1) the Jews; (2) the Nephites; and, (3) an unspecified third group he will visit after he departs. (16:1).

I think this structure of Jesus' visit to the Nephites is interesting, and certainly falls into the Biblical "literary technique" identified by the Oxford Bible Commentary.

I would agree that the fact this all occurs in the Third Book of Nephi is likely a coincidence. On the other hand, it has long been wondered why there is a Second Book of Nephi. If there were no Second Book of Nephi, there would be no Third Book of Nephi. Is it possible the editor of the work purposely created a Second Book of Nephi so that Jesus' visit, structured around sets of three, would be recounted in the Third Book of Nephi?

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

compare this idea to the creation as well as what we learn in the temple and you will find further knowledge and light on the issue.

I think 2nd Nephi is there for more than just to make a 3rd Nephi possible :P

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compare this idea to the creation as well as what we learn in the temple and you will find further knowledge and light on the issue.

I think 2nd Nephi is there for more than just to make a 3rd Nephi possible :P

Thanks for the post, LOAP!

I am aware it has been posited (by Noel Reynolds?) that 2 Nephi is set apart from 1 Nephi because 1 Nephi is one complete literary unit. I find this persuasive. I just wanted to throw into the mix that without a 2 Nephi, there would be no 3 Nephi in the Book of Mormon (or it would be a different book), which is interesting in light of the structure of 3 Nephi centered as it is around groups of 3.

Is it possible that 4 Nephi was set off from 3 Nephi for a similar reason as Noel Reynolds posits for 2 Nephi being set off from 1 Nephi? In other words, was 4 Nephi separated in order to highlight the 3-fold structure of 3 Nephi; much as 2 Nephi was separated in order to highlight the structure of 1 Nephi?

How much of the creation material you mention above do you think you could post on a public message board? Because I'm not getting it from your reference!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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Thanks for the post, LOAP!

I am aware it has been posited (by Noel Reynolds?) that 2 Nephi is set apart from 1 Nephi because 1 Nephi is one complete literary unit. I find this persuasive. I just wanted to throw into the mix that without a 2 Nephi, there would be no 3 Nephi in the Book of Mormon (or it would be a different book), which is interesting in light of the structure of 3 Nephi centered as it is around groups of 3.

Is it possible that 4 Nephi was set off from 3 Nephi for a similar reason as Noel Reynolds posits for 2 Nephi being set off from 1 Nephi? In other words, was 4 Nephi separated in order to highlight the 3-fold structure of 3 Nephi; much as 2 Nephi was separated in order to highlight the structure of 1 Nephi?

How much of the creation material you mention above do you think you could post on a public message board? Because I'm not getting it from your reference!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Oh, man, I'd have to dust off the old brain bookshelf. I'll look into it further when I get a chance, there are many instances of the three-fold witness, etc. in the scriptures, especially in the Book of Mormon. Check out the night when the Angel Moroni appeared to Joseph in his room; that ties into the number 3.

And next time you go to the temple, pay attention for 3's.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Peter, James, John.

This list can go on a long, long time.

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Oh, man, I'd have to dust off the old brain bookshelf. I'll look into it further when I get a chance, there are many instances of the three-fold witness, etc. in the scriptures, especially in the Book of Mormon. Check out the night when the Angel Moroni appeared to Joseph in his room; that ties into the number 3.

And next time you go to the temple, pay attention for 3's.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Peter, James, John.

This list can go on a long, long time.

I agree with you that the number three comes up frequently in the scriptures, as well as in the temple, though I am not immediately aware of any such number that comes up in a temple context that has not already appeared in a scriptural context.

My point about Third Nephi tries to take this a step further, and posits an actual structure to Christ's visit that is centered around the number 3.

Do you think there is any merit to that?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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I agree with you that the number three comes up frequently in the scriptures, as well as in the temple, though I am not immediately aware of any such number that comes up in a temple context that has not already appeared in a scriptural context.

My point about Third Nephi tries to take this a step further, and posits an actual structure to Christ's visit that is centered around the number 3.

Do you think there is any merit to that?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

There are a lot of angles to look at it from. Perhaps the literal visit was a structure of 3's, perhaps the Nephite record recorded it to emphasize the "3" in a literary sense, to help remember, etc.

It's obvious the linkage is there; as far as the meaning goes, that's an interesting question.

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You want 3's? You want 3's?!?!? I'll give you 3's:

3. Peter then was true; or rather was Christ true in Peter? Now when the Lord Jesus Christ would, He abandoned Peter, and Peter was found a man; but when it so pleased the Lord Jesus Christ, He filled Peter, and Peter was found true. The Rock (Petra) made Peter true, for the Rock was Christ. And what did He announce to him, when he answered a third time that he loved Christ, and a third time the Lord commended His little sheep to Peter? He announced to him beforehand his suffering. "When you were young," says He, "you girded yourself, and wentest whither you would, but when you shall be old, you shall stretch forth your hands, and another shall gird you, and carry you whither you would not." The Evangelist has explained to us Christ's meaning. "This spoke He," says he, "signifying by what death he should glorify God;" that is that he was crucified for Christ; for this is, "You shall stretch forth your hands." Where now is that denier? Then after this the Lord Christ said, "Follow Me." Not in the same sense as before, when he called the disciples. For then too He said, "Follow Me;" but then to instruction, now to a crown. Was he not afraid to be put to death when he denied Christ? He was afraid to suffer that which Christ suffered. But now he must be afraid no more. For he saw Him now Alive in the Flesh, whom he had seen hanging on the Tree. By His Resurrection Christ took away the fear of death; and forasmuch as He had taken away the fear of death, with good reason did He enquire of Peter's love. Fear had thrice denied, love thrice confessed. The threefoldness of denial, the forsaking of the Truth; the threefoldness of confession, the testimony of love.

Sermon 97 on the New Testament, by that kooky Hippo guy; Augustine

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Fear had thrice denied, love thrice confessed. The threefoldness of denial, the forsaking of the Truth; the threefoldness of confession, the testimony of love.

Sermon 97 on the New Testament, by that kooky Hippo guy; Augustine

That is absolutely . . . groovy.

So once again we have the New Testament making what seems an intentional structure around three's relating to Jesus Christ.

I mention this seems an intentional structure in that not all the gospels have the three-fold denial, but it seems to be done so in John in order to counterpart the three-fold confession.

And, I might add, I always thought "that kooky Hippo guy" was Peter Potamus!

Whatever you say, Chi Chi.

--Consiglieri

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Consiglieri,

I always enjoy your insights, and I would agree that there does indeed seem to be a literary emphasis on the number three that accompanies Christ's visit in 3 Nephi. I think we need more litarary exploration of this kind. Keep it up.

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3 = strikes in a strikeout

3 = outs in an inning

3 = innings to complete a full batting order (if nobody gets a hit)

3 = periods in a hockey game

3 = the number of missionaries Thinking's wife was writing before he married her

3 = the number of sports in which Thinking participated in high school (Cross Couontry, Basketball, Track)

3 = significant dead guys at the end of Return of the Jedi = Yoda, Ben Kanobe, Anican Skywalker

3 = championships which Larry Bird won with the Celtics

3 = Babe Ruth's uniform number

.300 or better = a good batting average

3 = crowd

3 = movie trilogy (many of those)

3 = triple crown (Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont Stakes)

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How about things that come in twos.

Heaven and hell

good and evil

positive and negative

up and down

day and night

truth and falsehood

male and female (does the BoM have both male and female characters? If so, then this is evidence!)

left and right

spin up and spin down

sine and cosine

homology and cohomolgy

ding and dong

*** and tat

2 is good but my favorite numbers are 1, 0, pi, e, and i=sqrt(-1)

and only two of those show up in the Book of Mormon.

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Dear Thinking and Tarski,

I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can list things that come in virtually any number under the sun.

I am having trouble seeing, however, how either of these exercises does anything to diminish from the structure of 3 Nephi.

Maybe you fellows can help me see the point.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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Tarski and Pahoran agreeing!!?? Is that an unhinging of nature on a par with cats and dogs living together?

And now...

Dear Thinking and Tarski,

...Maybe you fellows can help me...

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Consiglieri is asking both Thinking and Tarski for help!

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This "literary technique" made me think of Jesus' three-fold prayer in 3 Nephi 19, which follows precisely the same pattern as in Matthew 26. The three prayers are found in 3 Nephi 19: 19-23, 27-29, and 31-32. The prayers are parallel to each other. Further, the words to the last prayer are not given, because it is explained that tongue cannot speak nor can words be written to capture what Jesus prayed the third time.

I have to respectfully disagree that "precisely the same pattern" is followed. In Matthew 26 Jesus essentially says the same prayer three different times.

Prayer #1 (Matt. 26:39): O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Prayer #2 (Matt. 26:42): O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Prayer #3 (Matt. 26:44): And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

The three prayers recorded in 3 Nephi 19 are different.

The first prayer thanks the Father for the Holy Ghost.

3 Nephi 19:20-23

Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world. Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words. Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them. And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

The second prayer thanks the father for purifying the people.

3 Nephi 19:28-29

Father, I thank thee that thou hast purified those whom I have chosen, because of their faith, and I pray for them, and also for them who shall believe on their words, that they may be purified in me, through faith on their words, even as they are purified in me. Father, I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me out of the world, because of their faith, that they may be purified in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one, that I may be glorified in them.

The third prayer is not recorded because it can't be written, not because it's the same as the first two.

3 Nephi 19:32-34

And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed. And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their hearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed. Nevertheless, so great and marvelous were the words which he prayed that they cannot be written, neither can they be uttered by man.

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