This Week In Sunday School

[Pahoran]

It seems that for support for this new interpretation people are going to BYU professors, bypassing what LDS leaders have said in places like General Conferences about it. Would anyone like to offer up some support for this interpretation of 2 Nephi 25:23 from LDS prophets or general authorities?

That is irrelevant. The point is not what authorities we listen to. The point is that we, the Latter-day Saints, are the only people with any right to expound on LDS doctrine. Anyone else who attempts to do so cannot possibly be acting in good faith, as you yourself know only too well.

If what the neo-orthodox folks are saying about the passage is true, then these same folks should be willing to openly and explicitly repudiate passage like this from General Conference:

The arrogance by which you presume to tell us what to "repudiate" is astounding. President Romney was not only a vastly better man than you can ever hope to be, but his knowledge of the Gospel exceeds yours in much the same way as Bill Gates's bank balance does.

The idea of justification by faith seems opposed to the LDS concept that forgiveness comes after completing the six steps of repentance (sometimes listed as five steps).

If it "seems" that way to you, then that is because you are entirely clueless about LDS things.

This whole subject reminds me of a Bruce McConkie quote. Of all the people who advocate Mormon neo-orthodoxy, most people I talk to say this quote "focuses too much on works", but are unwilling to repudiate the quote as anti-grace and anti-gospel. It seems like they want it both ways, one foot in the door, and one foot out.

That's because you, being anti-truth and anti-gospel, fail to understand that grace does not remove the necessity for obedience.

Add to that the commonly believed prospect of becoming, in a way, self-sufficient and independent deities worshiped by our own creatures, and you have a problem with finally getting rid of the role of merit in Mormon soteriology. I know some of you depart from this Lorenzo Snow couplet tradition, but if the neo-orthodox movement toward the evangelical view of grace is real then the traditional belief must be condemned.

Pardon me for interrupting your soliloquy, but you are mesmerised by presumptions of your own importance. There is no "neo-orthodox movement toward the evangelical view of grace." We are not about to melt down into mere EV's, and the Church of Jesus Christ is not devolving into just another common-garden-variety Protestant church.

This (specifically the distinction between the Father's deification and our deification) certainly isn't official doctrine or even authoritative teaching from Mormonism, but it seems like some FAIR folks understand that they have to go this route or there are serious consequences in Mormon theology. One big problem is this kind of thought hasn't trickled down to Mormon laymen who more often than not lean toward the traditional view of Lorenzo Snow couplet theology (that we can come gods like all the gods did before us, Jesus Christ being the exception).

And you're just the guy to set them straight, right?

Sorry Aaron, but your sheepskin coat doesn't hide the wolf fur.

All things considered, I think if Mormons want to make a genuine move from a religion replete with conditions of personal righteousness, merit, and worthiness, they need to not only speak of old and new emphases, but also make some clear affirmations and denials when it comes to some key propositions on the role of worthiness, merit, works, ordinances in the purpose of life, the fall, justification, sanctification, and deification, etc. And if it is genuine that will require a massive, unequivocal departure from many things that LDS leaders have traditionally, authoritatively taught. I would also expect to start meeting more Mormons who believe that all their past sins have been forgiven, not just the sins that have been taken care of through the incredibly perfectionistic outline of the {HATE SITE LINK SNIPPED} six steps of repentance. So far, most Mormons I meet don't believe all their past sins have been forgiven, and object to my own claim at having had all my past sins forgiven because "that's like saying I'm perfect."

Aaron, I realise that you have no principles at all, but please do not imagine that you can hide links to your propaganda site, with its endless lies and explicit temple content, just by regurgitating long passages from it.

You've been found out. It won't work again.

Regards,

Pahoran

[LifeOnaPlate]

Aaron: If you're not willing to finish a discussion, don't join one to begin with.

[consiglieri]

I didn't know this thread had been resuscitated until today, when I happened to glance it before it disappeared off page one.

I will say that I do not feel the need to repudiate those who understand the 2 Nephi verse differently than I do. Elder Romney used it in one way, from his perspective. I tend to see it another way.

I am getting old enough to where I do not think that a single passage of scripture can necessarily be interpreted correctly in only one way.

That is why we can continue to learn from the scriptures with repeated readings.

I will also say that I think one of the reasons Mormons tend to focus on works is in response to the view predominant among EV Christians that all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal Savior and after that it doesn't matter what you do.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[rhinomelon]

I will also say that I think one of the reasons Mormons tend to focus on works is in response to the view predominant among EV Christians that all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal Savior and after that it doesn't matter what you do.

I agree, although I wouldn't say that the predominant view among mainstream Christians (even evangelicals) is that "it doesn't matter what you do" after accepting Christ. It would be more accurate to say that what one does (either good or bad) has no impact on the fact that you have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. One's works certainly do matter, just for different reasons than they do in the LDS context.

I would also restate your paragraph from my side of the fence, and say that many evangelicals emphasize the salvation by grace alone through faith alone and neglect to talk much of works, precisely in response to the LDS system that is perceived as a works-based salvation (with some justification for that perception, I think you'd agree, judging by this thread). In other words, perhaps we are overreacting to each other? Heck, even Calvin said that we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone (meaning works)!

Take care, everyone

[BCSpace]

I will also say that I think one of the reasons Mormons tend to focus on works is in response to the view predominant among EV Christians that all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal Savior and after that it doesn't matter what you do.

I would disagree and say rather that we concentrate on works ust as much as the Bible does such as, for example, where Jesus says good works are required for salvation in all of Matthew 25.

[consiglieri]

I would disagree and say rather that we concentrate on works ust as much as the Bible does such as, for example, where Jesus says good works are required for salvation in all of Matthew 25.

My only concern with focusing too much on Matthew 25 is that Jesus makes no mention whatsoever of grace there. It is only works.

On the other hand, Jesus in John is sometimes read as focusing too much attention on grace, without saying anything about works.

I think this is one of the reasons it is so difficult for people to come to agreement on the subject . . .

. . . and just one more indication that the Bible alone is not sufficient to instruct us in this regard; perhaps only to point us in the right direction, which is Jesus, and then to "work out our salvation" between us and him?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[rhinomelon]

I would disagree and say rather that we concentrate on works ust as much as the Bible does such as, for example, where Jesus says good works are required for salvation in all of Matthew 25.

This is like me saying that I drink beer and wine just as much as the Bible tells me to (Proverbs 31:6-7). Picking and choosing passages to emphasize can lead to all sorts of unbalance in the spiritual life.

Take care, everyone

[LifeOnaPlate]

This is like me saying that I drink beer and wine just as much as the Bible tells me to (Proverbs 31:6-7). Picking and choosing passages to emphasize can lead to all sorts of unbalance in the spiritual life.

Take care, everyone

Exactly.

[consiglieri]

This is like me saying that I drink beer and wine just as much as the Bible tells me to (Proverbs 31:6-7). Picking and choosing passages to emphasize can lead to all sorts of unbalance in the spiritual life.

Take care, everyone

Amen, brother!

And I think that we see eye to eye that emphasizing passages that deal with grace over those that deal with works can lead to just such an imbalance.

I feel from your posts that we see both as important, but may differ a bit in the fine tuning. But we are so close I feel I can reach out and touch you.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri