This Week In Sunday School

[consiglieri]

Just a clarifying question, T-shirt. Would juliann's above post line up with your understanding? I guess I'm wondering if "salvation" in your post carried the meaning of "resurrection only", as in some LDS discourse, or if you were referring to "exaltation", which would seem to be the reading in juliann's example.

Take care

This is where I see EV Christians and LDS Christians talking past each other so often.

An EV Christian will say that we are saved by grace, meaning that we will live forever in heaven where God and Christ dwell.

An LDS Christian will say we are saved by grace, meaning that we will be resurrected, regardless of where we end up, including outer darkness.

Or an LDS Christian may say that we are saved by grace, excluding outer darkness from the equation, and saying that it refers to any of the kingdoms of glory.

That is why I want to try and put this on an even playing field, trying to use similar language, and have posited that we are saved by grace alone, meaning that we are exalted.

I feel confident that this is the position of LDS scripture. We will see where this ends up taking us.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Well , IMO I think you had it right the first time. We are saved by grace alone without any effort on our part. It seems to me that salvation is a free gift by the grace of Christ to all those who kept their First Estate and came to earth and received a body. That general salvation was the reward for our having been faithful in the pre-existence.

I hear what you are saying regarding a general salvation versus an individual salvation. I want to take this opportunity to assure everyone that I am still a believing Latter-day Saint.

Of course, part and parcel of being a believing Latter-day Saint is believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and believing that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.

My reading of the Book of Mormon is that salvation is by grace alone, a theme I have begun to develop here, and which I will continue to do to the best of my ability.

Here I will try my hand at an analogy of salvation:

I am in the middle of a storm tossed ocean, my ship has sunk, nobody is in sight, and I am going down for the last time. I am doomed to certain destruction. Suddenly, out of the storm comes the light of a rescue helicopter, which lowers a man down on a cable and into the water by me. He reaches out to me and I grab onto him with all my remaining strength. He takes me in his strong embrace and I am cabled up with him into the helicopter and flown to safety.

I think this parable does a pretty effective job of describing in modern-day parlance the position of man, the position of God, and what happens at the moment of salvation.

Now, if I were to be asked later by a reporter how I was saved, would I not give all credit to the rescue team? Or would I say that they flew out the helicopter and lowered the man into the water by me, but that I was the one who grabbed on? Or would I say that I continued to hold on as they lifted me out of the water? Or would I say that I was the one who didn't jump out of the helicopter on the way to shore?

Would I, in other words, claim any credit for what I did? Obviously, if I had not grabbed on, I would not have been saved. Obviously, if I had not continued to hold on, I would not have been saved. Obviously, if I had jumped out of the helicopter on the way to shore, I would not have been saved.

In other words, would there not be something fundamentally wrong with my view of things if I took any credit to myself for my rescue? Or would there not be something fundamentally wrong with my view of things if I started parsing out what the rescue team did from what I did in order to be saved? Would not a normal person viewing on TV that particular interview have some negative thoughts about me as a person?

And is it possible that our EV Christian brothers and sisters have been trying to express those very thoughts about us as a religious community when we begin talking about what we do that contributes to our salvation, even if we acknowledge the actions of the rescue team?

Just some thoughts.

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I must put it to the good Doctor : What then do we make of D&C 76 (and don't say a paper airplane) where it says that even those who never believed in Christ or did anything useful with their lives will also be heirs of salvation?

Actually, I am a doctor, too, although there is only one who is good, and that is God.

Here is what I would say about those people: They were not exalted because they rejected the grace of God freely extended to them.

Mosiah 16: 12--Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not (call upon the Lord); they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

[speaking on the early christians belief that our works play a role in our salvation, and how it reconciles with their belief that we are saved by grace]

That is, like, so freaky that you would quote from a book that I pulled off the shelf last night and started rereading in preparation for Sunday school. In fact, as soon as I read the first line, I knew what you were quoting because I read that paragraph, too; a paragraph that stood out because I had marked it the first time around!

I see the author of that book as trying to make a course correction in how far some Evangelical Christians have gotten away from the moorings of the early Christians in developing a doctrine of grace that has become equated in some circles with "cheap grace," where what we do means nothing.

What I am trying to do is make a course correction from the other side of the spectrum, where I feel that some Mormons may have gotten away from the moorings of the Book of Mormon in developing a doctrine of works that has become equated in some circles with "salvation by works," where what we do means everything.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I see what you are saying , T-Shirt. But here again we get into salvation as opposed to life in the presence of God as opposed to Eternal Life ,which is becoming like God.

For instance , one can be an heir of salvation without ever being baptized ; one who is baptized can live in the presence of God without ever becoming like Him ; in order for one to receive a fulness (exaltation) one must receive all the ordinances , covenants and priesthood necessary for exaltation.

We are told in the scriptures that all will kneel before Christ and acknowledge Him as our Lord and Saviour , but salvation in a kingdom of glory (Telestial) is given to even those who are never baptized. So , baptism cannot be the key to salvation , but as I see it baptism is the key to entrance into and salvation within the CK.

These are good points all.

Here are my thoughts on the ordinances which Mormons consider essential to salvation.

God freely gave us the ordinances through his grace. God freely gave us through his grace the priesthood by which those ordinances may be performed with authority. Christ's atonement, provided through his grace, makes the ordinances effective for our salvation.

Should we claim any degree of contribution to our own salvation because we receive those ordinances?

Or is this too much like the person who talks about what he did in grabbing onto the rescuer who pulled him from the turbulent sea?

If we receive all the ordinances of exaltation, can we do anything other than say that it is by the grace of God that we are exalted?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

If you are saying that all these people did absolutely nothing and were yet saved, I would differ with you. Did they not all speak of their experience as realizing their sinful and lost state and then accepting the gift of the atonement of Christ and that is why they were "born again". They may not have done any physical, external actions, but there was an internal acceptance of knowledge followed by a change of heart. And immediately upon waking up, they proceeded to do good works including being baptized. And Lehi chooses to pick the fruit and eat it.

This is an actively received grace, not a passive one.

This seems to me to be consistent with the way the Church has always taught salvation as the acceptance of the grace of the atonement through repentance followed by obedience.

Thank you, Calmoriah, for being the first one to address the numerous stories in the Book of Mormon that bear so importantly on the issue of salvation.

And up until the last three words of your post (at least if I understand you correctly), I think what you are saying is precisely in line with what our Evangelical brothers and sisters on this board have been trying to tell us.

But it is the last three words of your post ("followed by obedience") that I want to parse a little further. The individuals in the Book of Mormon stories accepted the grace of the atonement through calling upon the Lord for mercy with a broken heart and a contrite spirit after recognizing their lost and fallen state. If this is how you mean "repentance," then I agree with you.

But the next is a critical point: They did not accept Jesus' atonement through obedience. Their obedience is what followed because they had accepted Jesus' atonement.

We know that great obedience was shown by the sons of Mosiah in their lengthy mission to the bloodthirsty Lamanites. At the end of their mission, Ammon begins to recount all the things they had done in their mission, saying: "For if we had not come up out of the land of Zarahemla, these our dearly beloved brethren, who have so dearly loved us, would still have been racked with hatred against us, yea, and they would also have been strangers to God." (Alma 26:9)

For this, Ammon is rebuked by his brother Aaron: "And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting." (Alma 26:10)

In other words, even though Ammon of his own free will chose to go preach the gospel to the Lamanites, Aaron is concerned that Ammon is taking credit for it himself.

Ammon agrees with Aaron that it would be wrong to take credit, and immediately clarifies that he is not claiming any credit whatsoever for his actions, but is giving all the credit to the Lord: "But Ammon said unto him: I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God. Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things." (Alma 26:11-12a)

I think that these words in the Book of Mormon are worth pondering for any Latter-day Saint who would view his or her own actions as contributing anything toward their salvation. If it is only "in the strength of God" that we do anything meritorious, how can we take credit for any of our good deeds?

And so I think that, from beginning to end, it is only in and through the grace of Christ that we are exalted.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Congislieri,

I haven't read the thread, and don't care. I am going to report you to the High Council of 5, and you will lose your position immediately! I have already ordered a UFO to kidnap you during the closing prayer. That's what you get for trying to teach grace!!

Hah! But because you made the strategic error of waiting until the closing prayer to have me kidnapped, I will have already wreaked my carnage.

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!

Just some incoherent ideas

All your thoughts are very good and far from incoherent, and I thank you for them.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tanyan]

Awsome discussion here on Salvation and how it is accepted/made alive/maintained in ones temporal and spiritual life. Remembering that the context of 2 Nephi 25:23 and that the 'After all we can do" for them in the BofM it was keeping the law of Moses as you would see if you read a few verses later in that chapter. Latter Day Saints I believe have Christianized that scripture in the "all we can do" to be keeping the commandments by way of a totaly living Christian Discipleship by being Faithful sevants and stewards of the salvation gift that we have recieved. see http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/d...s/grace_eom.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/grace.htm

http://www.14lds.com/rags.htm

http://www.14lds.com/luther.htm

May Grace Rain on you all. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Severian]

The LDS view that has almost always been presented to me (whether by missionaries, LDS friends, and books recommended by LDS) is the one espoused by BCSpace, which has always turned me away. The view that "after all we can do" is akin to "in spite of all we do" seems quite recent in my experience, and is a most welcome nuance. It is also much more realistic, when looked at in light of human being's everyday experiences and struggles.

It seems to me also, that "in spite of all we can do" is the correct reading of that scripture. Good works are of course part and parcel of the second greatest request.

[consiglieri]

Awsome discussion here on Salvation and how it is accepted/made alive/maintained in ones temporal and spiritual life. Remembering that the context of 2 Nephi 25:23 and that the 'After all we can do" for them in the BofM it was keeping the law of Moses as you would see if you read a few verses later in that chapter. Latter Day Saints I believe have Christianized that scripture in the "all we can do" to be keeping the commandments by way of a totaly living Christian Discipleship by being Faithful sevants and stewards of the salvation gift that we have recieved. see

May Grace Rain on you all. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

These are excellent points, Tanyan!

But if God's grace is going to rain on me, may I not at least take credit for my part in choosing to go outside in the rain?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tanyan]

Awsome discussion here on Salvation and how it is accepted/made alive/maintained in ones temporal and spiritual life. Remembering that the context of 2 Nephi 25:23 and that the 'After all we can do" for them in the BofM it was keeping the law of Moses as you would see if you read a few verses later in that chapter. Latter Day Saints I believe have Christianized that scripture in the "all we can do" to be keeping the commandments by way of a totaly living Christian Discipleship by being Faithful sevants and stewards of the salvation gift that we have recieved. see http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/d...s/grace_eom.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/grace.htm

http://www.14lds.com/rags.htm

http://www.14lds.com/luther.htm

May Grace Rain on you all. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Once again a careful reading of the text of 2 Nephi 25:23,24,25,26 the "'All we can do" is keeping the law of Moses but they were looking forward to the Christ and that there faith in him was made alive. Just as our keeping the commandments should be born out of faith in Jesus and made alive. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[consiglieri]

It seems to me also, that "in spite of all we can do" is the correct reading of that scripture. Good works are of course part and parcel of the second greatest request.

Yes, good works are part of the second great "commandment," to love your neighbor as yourself.

But if there is no one good, but God; then perhaps we should view any work we do as done by God, as well.

Here is where I like C.S. Lewis, when he said that some people talk about salvation as if they were digging a ditch with God, and they could point out which part of the ditch they dug and which part God dug. C.S. Lewis suggests that this is not the way it really is, but it is God in us making it so we can dig the ditch. It is therefore impossible to say that we did this part, and God did that part. It is all done by God, because it is God working in us to do the good.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Once again a careful reading of the text of 2 Nephi 25:23,24,25,26 the "'All we can do" is keeping the law of Moses but they were looking forward to the Christ and that there faith in him was made alive. Just as our keeping the commandments should be born out of faith in Jesus and made alive. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

I would agree with you again, and suggest that only if our keeping the commandments is born out of faith in Jesus are we made alive thereby.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tanyan]

These are excellent points, Tanyan!

But if God's grace is going to rain on me, may I not at least take credit for my part in choosing to go outside in the rain?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yes, but one must open the door of there Heart/Mind to have that Grace Rain effective. Peace/Grace to you. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[consiglieri]

Yes, but one must open the door of there Heart/Mind to have that Grace Rain effective. Peace/Grace to you. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

Absolutely!

And I am once again left to wonder whether this is exactly what our Evangelical friends have been trying to tell us for so long.

Rhino?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[jumbo]

I am surprised that you, consiglieri, and some others here believe in grace only. If GBH says "it is by grace only" then I will always believe we are exalted by grace and works. Unless you are talking about the gift of being resurrected and the gift of not going were satan will be going then I agree.

[Doctor Steuss]

I am surprised that you, consiglieri, and some others here believe in grace only. If GBH says "it is by grace only" then I will always believe we are exalted by grace and works. Unless you are talking about the gift of being resurrected and the gift of not going were satan will be going then I agree.

The thing is, the "works" we perform are nothing more than us giving something (a portion of our lives) to G-d that already belongs to Him. It is His grace and His grace alone which saves us (and exalts us). Has He asked us to continue a path of sanctification after our past sins are justified in order to partake of His grace? Yes. But, that path would do nothing for us if it were not for the grace of G-d to begin with.

[Lightbearer]

Here is an interesting passage from the Book of Mormon on the subject of grace and it's relationship to our agency:

(2 Nephi 10:23-25) "Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselvesâ??to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen."

The problem I see from the EV position of grace is their belief that we cannot choose to be good. It is true that we are unprofitable servants and that our own actions (good works) do not in and of themselves save us, but the fact is that if we "choose to be reconciled to the will of God" by complying with the requirements (Faith in Christ, Repentance, Baptism, and enduring faithfully to the end) we are not denying the mercy or grace of God. We are in fact choosing to do the will of God. That is the only gift we can give God in return for His grace...by making His will be our will.

Note also that Lehi taught his sons to keep the commandments of God and yet he made this statement:

(2 Nephi 2:3-7) "Wherefore, thy soul shall be blessed, and thou shalt dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi; and thy days shall be spent in the service of thy God. Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men.

And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.

And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered."

He explains that the Holy Messiah brings about the redemption unto all who have "a broken heart and a contrite spirit" and unto none else. In order to be saved we must repent, we cannot continue in sin and continue to be sanctified or cleansed from sin. This is simular to the teachings of of Amulek:

(Alma 11:37) "And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."

So how are we saved? We are saved "from our sins." The Savior clarified these doctrines when He visited the Nephites after His resurrection:

(3 Nephi 27:13-22) "Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto youâ??that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evilâ??

And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day."

I think that is pretty plain, we must keep the Lord's commandments, obey His ordinances and do the will of the Father or we cannot be saved. However our salvation comes because of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]the fact is that if we "choose to be reconciled to the will of God" [...] we are not denying the mercy or grace of God. We are in fact choosing to do the will of God. [...]

Interestingly, the same is required of those who receive the gift of salvation in the life to come.

1 Peter 4:6

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[Calm]

But the next is a critical point: They did not accept Jesus' atonement through obedience. Their obedience is what followed because they had accepted Jesus' atonement.

I agree. I added the obedience section because repentance without obedience is empty. It is not a true acceptance of the atonement whose purpose is to bring us to God, but rather the use of it as a 'get out of jail free card', taking the person out of hell perhaps, but nowhere else. No true change of heart has occurred, only a reaction based on fear, not love and joy.

Since all that we have which we perform our good works with are gifts from God--our bodies and all the world around us, the only thing we can give God that isn't from him originally (and in a sense since it is still under his ultimate dominion our mortality is on loan--open ended though it is--from him at this point) is the intent of our hearts, our choice.

[oats]

If there are minds struggling to wrap their minds around being saved by grace, watch the seminary video 'The Mediator' on the Book of Mormon tape. It's a great video that is narrated by Boyd K Packer telling his little parable.

[Tanyan]

That is a great Video/DVD. Hebrews 5:9. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[consiglieri]

If there are minds struggling to wrap their minds around being saved by grace, watch the seminary video 'The Mediator' on the Book of Mormon tape. It's a great video that is narrated by Boyd K Packer telling his little parable.

This would probably be an inopportune time for me to weigh in on my feelings regarding the value of that particular parable.

I know it has gained a lot of currency in the Mormon community, but here is the problem as I see it. According to the parable:

1. We owe God perfect obedience.

2. We fail in that and then are put in prison.

3. Along comes a Mediator who says that if we do what he says, he will take us off the hook with God.

4. We gladly accept.

5. The punchline is this--what the Mediator requires of is perfect obedience.

In other words, we are out of the frying pan and into the fire. What we could not do for God is now what is being required of us by the Mediator in order to save us from prison . . . which means we will just land back in prison.

And so, this peculiarly Mormon version of the atonement scenario seems to suffer from an inherent illogicality.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The thing is, the "works" we perform are nothing more than us giving something (a portion of our lives) to G-d that already belongs to Him. It is His grace and His grace alone which saves us (and exalts us). Has He asked us to continue a path of sanctification after our past sins are justified in order to partake of His grace? Yes. But, that path would do nothing for us if it were not for the grace of G-d to begin with.

And everyone said . . . Amen!

I am surprised that you, consiglieri, and some others here believe in grace only. If GBH says "it is by grace only" then I will always believe we are exalted by grace and works. Unless you are talking about the gift of being resurrected and the gift of not going were satan will be going then I agree.

I am full of surprises that way.

If the Book of Mormon says that we are saved by grace only (which it does repeatedly), what are you doing waiting around for President Gordon B. Hinckley?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I am surprised that you, consiglieri, and some others here believe in grace only.

If there were no grace, could you be saved?

If you could not be saved without the grace of God, then it is only by and through the grace of God that you are saved.

Nes pas?

--Consiglieri

[Drewm777]

I think this whole discussion is quite alarming. How else can we be saved than by grace? Can we save ourselves? It just doesn't make sense to say we're saved by anything other than grace.

Last time I checked "only" is an adverb and "alone" is in adjective and both mean the same thing. Thus, 2 Nephi 10:24 would advocated salvation by grace "alone." Read it closely. Also, Look up Romans 3:28 in the JST. We're saved by faith "alone." Ironic that Joseph Smith followed Luther's translation of the text, but most LDS would be opposed to it today.

We're saved by grace alone. This does not mean that we are saved if we reject Christ by rebelling against him. However, so long as we've accepted him as our savior (through being baptized), and do not purposefully rebel against him afterwards, our salvation is sure. This is my understanding of Book of Mormon doctrine, as well as what the New Testament teaches.

How could it be otherwise? We can never be saved by any other means once we've sinned.

[consiglieri]

I think this whole discussion is quite alarming. How else can we be saved than by grace? Can we save ourselves? It just doesn't make sense to say we're saved by anything other than grace.

Last time I checked "only" is an adverb and "alone" is in adjective and both mean the same thing. Thus, 2 Nephi 10:24 would advocated salvation by grace "alone." Read it closely. Also, Look up Romans 3:28 in the JST. We're saved by faith "alone." Ironic that Joseph Smith followed Luther's translation of the text, but most LDS would be opposed to it today.

We're saved by grace alone. This does not mean that we are saved if we reject Christ by rebelling against him. However, so long as we've accepted him as our savior (through being baptized), and do not purposefully rebel against him afterwards, our salvation is sure. This is my understanding of Book of Mormon doctrine, as well as what the New Testament teaches.

How could it be otherwise? We can never be saved by any other means once we've sinned.

Well said!

I think that if we as Mormons could embrace the Book of Mormon teaching that we are saved by grace alone, without adding qualifiers about what we must do in order to be "worthy," we would be better able to discuss the issue with our Evangelical brothers and sisters without causing them offense.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri