This Week In Sunday School

[consiglieri]

May I be blunt consiglieri? Your framing of these questions every time you are about to teach leaves the distinct impression that you hold members in rather low regard, and seem to refer to them not only in a disdainful manner but as if you were not a member. It is this and NOT your subject matter that leads me to question why you are teaching in the first place. Hopefully I am wrong, but I do think some respect for those who attend your class would do your teaching well. Just a thought.

Dear Hawkmoon,

I appreciate your candor. Your comments may be too close to the mark for my comfort.

In my defense, I will say that the thread as it is developing even here would seem to bear out my apprehensions.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

_____________________________________

Thanks, everyone, for your comments.

I am gratified that for once I appear to be doing something other than just annoying Rhinomelon!

Does anybody wish to weigh in on the previous post where I set forth the numerous stories in the Book of Mormon, all variations on the theme of being saved without the contribution of works?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

And given that there are several LDS on this very thread that seem to reject the idea that one is saved by grace alone, it seems quite clear that this understanding is not a creation of rabid antis bearing false witness. I would also recommend some of Robert Millet's works on this topic. He is rather explicit in affirming that he is rediscovering LDS teachings that have become obscured by a high-intensity theology of works. Stephen Robinson also said much the same thing, if I recall.

I would also like to note that this "rediscovery" of the Book of Mormon doctrine on this topic has coincided with President Benson's 1980's emphasis on reading and studying the Book of Mormon.

I think this plays a part.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I've re-read this several times now... I think you should pull a Consiglieri and quote your own profundity in a thread of its own.

It reminds me of Hugh Nibley's reference to their being only two paths; the upward path and the downward path.

The secret is that they are both the same path. Whether it is upward or downward depends on which way you are facing.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Obiwan: Unfortunately, there are some in the Church who focus on works, and forget the grace. Its unfortunate, but it is true.

Elder Oaks gave a great talk on the principle. "The Challenge To Become."

Thank you for the quote LOP. I thought this an important talk by Elder Oaks, and the mere fact that he gave it appears an indication that he is addressing a misperception among the general church membership. Nez pas?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I think there is enough variety in our history that we aren't so much modifying as re-emphasizing. I would be surprised if anyone objected to saved by grace but if they do pulling out historical teachings might be helpful. In my experience, members may vigorously defend something in a simplistic manner (which we are forced to do in such short time periods) but when push comes to shove we will always return to no amount of works will get us through the door. I liked the way Prof Keller put it (a former Protestant minister). He said that as a bishop he found out if his members believed or accepted the atonement by asking them if they woudl go to the CK if they died today. If they said no, they didn't accept the atonement.

Thank you for your post, Juliann.

I understand that different people will perceive things differently, which is why I was careful to preface my comments with the fact that it is "my perception."

Having said that, my recollection is that, 30-years ago when I joined the Church, the thrust of the teaching in the LDS Church was that we perfect ourselves by our own efforts, and the atonement of Christ is there to clean up the mess we leave behind.

In other words, the atonement is there for forgiveness, but not for perfection.

I seem to recall a statement by President Kimball in this regard which mentioned that we have to "lift ourselves up by our own bootstraps."

Just my perception.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I have been preaching salvation by grace for some time now. As a member of our stake High Council, I speak regularly in the wards. I have spoke on this topic frequently. I have brought it up in High Council meetings and recommended it as a topic for the Stake President to address in Stake Conference. I have raised a few eyebrows, but I have not yet been censured. Here is how I see it:

When one accepts Christ and through faith repents and enters a covenant with Him through baptism, the gift of salvation is given. This gift is not earned in any way, nor is it deserved, it is freely given. If one were to die at this moment, he would be secure in his salvation. Now, this is not the end of the story, however. Baptism is only the "strait gate" which puts us on the "narrow path" to God. We must stay on this path. Some travel the path faster than others, but as long as we remain on the path, we are safe. Because we have been given much, the Lord expects much of us, which is where obedience and the ordinances come in. These things keep us on the path. It is possible to veer off of the path and lose the gift which has been given, but as we are not expected to run faster than we are able, where we are on the path is not as important as just being on the path. If we try to make the journey by following some other path, even if we work very hard at it, we will never arrive at the destination. Without the initial gift of Christ, through His grace, we cannot enter the gate, thus we cannot gain access to the path. So, it is our works that keep us on the path, but it is the grace of Christ that put us there, therefore, we are saved by grace. We can, however, fall from grace.

T-Shirt

Dear T-Shirt,

Thank you for your thoughts.

Now, if we were to add into the mix that the moment we accept Christ as our Savior, we are saved; and the rest of the ordinances and obedience flows from the fact that we are saved; and is not just us working, but God in us working through us . . . I think that even Rhinomelon might be tempted to declare, "Almost, T-Shirt, thou persuadest me to be a Mormon."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

What planet are you on, that you would even get this "impression"?

Kolob

[ed2276]

But aren't we all skipping over something here? It is the distinction between being saved and being exalted that seems to be escaping us here. Salvation is free by the grace of God through Christ. Even the unbeliever in Christ will enter into a state of salvation into glory.

D&C 76

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

So , in order to be heirs of salvation and glory we don't even have to do anything at all. Christ's grace saves us. While in order to attain to Eternal Life and Exaltation we are obliged to receive the ordinances and covenants that pertain to Eternal Life and Exaltation.

[consiglieri]

But aren't we all skipping over something here? It is the distinction between being saved and being exalted that seems to be escaping us here. Salvation is free by the grace of God through Christ. Even the unbeliever in Christ will enter into a state of salvation into glory.

You may be right, and I was actually checking my watch to see when this issue would be raised.

Do you think it significant that the Book of Mormon, in which the doctrine of salvation by grace alone is preeminent, makes no such distinction?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[ed2276]

You may be right, and I was actually checking my watch to see when this issue would be raised.

Did I set a new world record for the time it took to be raised?

Do you think it significant that the Book of Mormon, in which the doctrine of salvation by grace alone is preeminent, makes no such distinction?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Wow , you asked me a question that I really have to think about.

I really don't know if the BoM passages were addressing exaltation or salvation in general. It seems to me that , from what little I remember (I haven't read the BoM through in several years) that the BoM addresses general salvation. Given that it addresses general salvation (if it does) and combined with D&C 76 and the general salvation mentioned there , I think that you would be safe in teaching salvation by grace alone. This is a different salvation by grace alone than BAC's teach , which requires a confession of faith in Christ. The general salvation found in LDS scripture seems to me to cover those who don't even believe in Christ yet become heirs of salvation.

[consiglieri]

Fair enough.

Then, in order to focus the direction of this thread, interest in which appears to be evaporating, let me frame my argument as follows:

We are exalted by the grace of Christ alone.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

Fair enough.

Then, in order to focus the direction of this thread, interest in which appears to be evaporating, let me frame my argument as follows:

We are exalted by the grace of Christ alone.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Negative... it is through the work and glory of the Father.

[ed2276]

Fair enough.

Then, in order to focus the direction of this thread, interest in which appears to be evaporating, let me frame my argument as follows:

We are exalted by the grace of Christ alone.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well , IMO I think you had it right the first time. We are saved by grace alone without any effort on our part. It seems to me that salvation is a free gift by the grace of Christ to all those who kept their First Estate and came to earth and received a body. That general salvation was the reward for our having been faithful in the pre-existence.

But it seems to me that exaltation requires something more of us (Baptism , Endowment , Marriage for time and all eternity , Priesthood) in addition to Christ's saving grace. I think that this might be the meaning behind the BoM scripture where it says "after all we can do" and this particular scripture might very well be pointing to exaltation rather than general salvation. After all we can do (Baptism , Endowment , etc. ) it is still the grace of Christ that makes exaltation possible. So , as King Benjamin says :

Mosiah 2

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to anotherâ??I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Whereas with general salvation no one need be baptized , endowed , hold priesthood or even believe in Christ to be saved in a kingdom of glory. They are saved , but not able to live in the presence of the Father and Son or to become like them. This is a general salvation , as opposed to the special salvation of exaltation.

[Doctor Steuss]

Negative... it is through the work and glory of the Father.

Actually, the more I think about thisâ?¦

G-d gave us our lives (a free gift), He then asks us for a tiny fraction of it back. Then, He returns that tiny fraction to us, plus an infinitely larger gift as well.

Grace.

Rhinomelon, when do you want to be baptized?

[ed2276]

Actually, the more I think about thisâ?¦

G-d gave us our lives (a free gift), He then asks us for a tiny fraction of it back. Then, He returns that tiny fraction to us, plus an infinitely larger gift as well.

Grace.

Rhinomelon, when do you want to be baptized?

I must put it to the good Doctor : What then do we make of D&C 76 (and don't say a paper airplane) where it says that even those who never believed in Christ or did anything useful with their lives will also be heirs of salvation?

[Doctor Steuss]

I must put it to the good Doctor : What then do we make of D&C 76 (and don't say a paper airplane) where it says that even those who never believed in Christ or did anything useful with their lives will also be heirs of salvation?

What do we make of it? Grace.

They just won't get as big a gift (and that will suck for them when they see everyone else enjoying their bigger gifts... there will be great gnashing of teeth when they see Consiglieriâ??s Celestial Huffy Bike).

[ed2276]

What do we make of it? Grace.

They just won't get as big a gift (and that will suck for them when they see everyone else enjoying their bigger gifts... there will be great gnashing of teeth when they see Consiglieriâ??s Celestial Huffy Bike).

[LifeOnaPlate]

What do we make of it? Grace.

They just won't get as big a gift (and that will suck for them when they see everyone else enjoying their bigger gifts... there will be great gnashing of teeth when they see Consiglieriâ??s Celestial Huffy Bike).

iawtp

[rameumptom]

This coming Sunday, we will be covering those texts from the gospels dealing with the Savior's agony in Gethsemane.

As the Gospel Doctrine Sunday School teacher, I feel it an invitation to address the subject of the salvation offered us by Jesus, which is through no work of our own, but solely through his grace.

It has been my perception that the LDS Church has been modifying its teachings on grace over the last three decades, which I tend to see as a reclaiming of Book of Mormon doctrine on the subject.

Any thoughts about how I can do this in such a manner as to avoid offending the class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Nothing wrong to say we are saved by grace. The Book of Mormon teaches many times we are all resurrected and returned to God's presence. However, once we are back in His presence, Who we have Become, becomes an issue for exaltation. Moroni 9 tells us that the wicked would be more miserable in God's presence than in hell, and Alma 12 tells us that the wicked would wish the rocks to fall upon them, rather than stay in God's presence.

IOW, God offers us a free gift, but many not only will not accept it, but CANNOT accept it in its entirety, because they are not like Christ, so they cannot bear the glory and majesty of it all. So, by grace they accept a lower kingdom of glory (or no glory, for the sons of perdition).

Gary

[Platypus Man]

This coming Sunday, we will be covering those texts from the gospels dealing with the Savior's agony in Gethsemane.

As the Gospel Doctrine Sunday School teacher, I feel it an invitation to address the subject of the salvation offered us by Jesus, which is through no work of our own, but solely through his grace.

It has been my perception that the LDS Church has been modifying its teachings on grace over the last three decades, which I tend to see as a reclaiming of Book of Mormon doctrine on the subject.

Any thoughts about how I can do this in such a manner as to avoid offending the class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[speaking on the early christians belief that our works play a role in our salvation, and how it reconciles with their belief that we are saved by grace]

You may be saying to yourself, "I'm confused. Out of one side of their mouths they say we are saved because of our works, and out of the other side they say we are saved by faith or grace. They don't seem to know what they believed!" Oh, but they did.

Our problem is that Augustine, Luther, and other Western theologians have convinced us that there's an irreconcilable conflict between salvation based on grace and salvation conditioned on works or obedience. They have used a fallacious form of argumentation known as the "false dilem-ma," by asserting that there are only two possibilities regarding salvation: it's either (1) a gift from God or (2) it's something we earn by our works. The early Christians would have replied that a gift is no less a gift simply because it's conditioned on obedience.

Suppose a king asked his son to go to the royal orchard and bring back a basket full of the king's favorite apples. After the son had complied, suppose the king gave his son half of his kingdom. Was the reward a gift, or was it something the son had earned? The answer is that it was a gift. The son obviously didn't earn half of his father's kingdom by performing such a small task. The fact that the gift was conditioned on the son's obedience doesn't change the fact that it was still a gift. The early Christians believed that salvation is a gift from God but that God gives His gift to whomever He chooses. And He chooses to give it to those who love and obey him.

From Davit Bercot's book "Will the Real Heretic Please Stand Up"

[freakin a man]

I don't see why people seem to get all bugged about 2 Nephi 25:23. It does not say that we are saved after all we can do. I like to flip the words a little bit but it really does not change the meaning:

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that after all we can do, it is by grace that we are saved."

[ed2276]

I have been preaching salvation by grace for some time now. As a member of our stake High Council, I speak regularly in the wards. I have spoke on this topic frequently. I have brought it up in High Council meetings and recommended it as a topic for the Stake President to address in Stake Conference. I have raised a few eyebrows, but I have not yet been censured. Here is how I see it:

When one accepts Christ and through faith repents and enters a covenant with Him through baptism, the gift of salvation is given. This gift is not earned in any way, nor is it deserved, it is freely given. If one were to die at this moment, he would be secure in his salvation. Now, this is not the end of the story, however. Baptism is only the "strait gate" which puts us on the "narrow path" to God. We must stay on this path. Some travel the path faster than others, but as long as we remain on the path, we are safe. Because we have been given much, the Lord expects much of us, which is where obedience and the ordinances come in. These things keep us on the path. It is possible to veer off of the path and lose the gift which has been given, but as we are not expected to run faster than we are able, where we are on the path is not as important as just being on the path. If we try to make the journey by following some other path, even if we work very hard at it, we will never arrive at the destination. Without the initial gift of Christ, through His grace, we cannot enter the gate, thus we cannot gain access to the path. So, it is our works that keep us on the path, but it is the grace of Christ that put us there, therefore, we are saved by grace. We can, however, fall from grace.

T-Shirt

I see what you are saying , T-Shirt. But here again we get into salvation as opposed to life in the presence of God as opposed to Eternal Life ,which is becoming like God.

For instance , one can be an heir of salvation without ever being baptized ; one who is baptized can live in the presence of God without ever becoming like Him ; in order for one to receive a fulness (exaltation) one must receive all the ordinances , covenants and priesthood necessary for exaltation.

We are told in the scriptures that all will kneel before Christ and acknowledge Him as our Lord and Saviour , but salvation in a kingdom of glory (Telestial) is given to even those who are never baptized. So , baptism cannot be the key to salvation , but as I see it baptism is the key to entrance into and salvation within the CK.

[Calm]

May I add that, over and over again, the Book of Mormon seems to relish telling stories framed in such a way as to make it clear that salvation comes by grace alone with no opportunity for contributing works from the recipient?

There is the conversion of Alma, the younger, who is in a coma when he is saved and awakes from the coma only to tell the onlookers that he has been "born again." No possibility for works in the coma.

There is the conversion of King Lamoni, and then again of his father, told in similar terms.

There is the conversion of the Lamanites by Nephi and Lehi in Helaman 5 who are paralyzed when they are saved.

There is even the interesting anomaly in Lehi's Dream of the Tree of Life, where we tend to focus on the people that Lehi sees "pressing forward" toward the Tree of Life to partake of its fruit, without necessarily pausing to recognize that Lehi himself apparently got to the Tree of Life by a different route.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

If you are saying that all these people did absolutely nothing and were yet saved, I would differ with you. Did they not all speak of their experience as realizing their sinful and lost state and then accepting the gift of the atonement of Christ and that is why they were "born again". They may not have done any physical, external actions, but there was an internal acceptance of knowledge followed by a change of heart. And immediately upon waking up, they proceeded to do good works including being baptized. And Lehi chooses to pick the fruit and eat it.

This is an actively received grace, not a passive one.

This seems to me to be consistent with the way the Church has always taught salvation as the acceptance of the grace of the atonement through repentance followed by obedience.

[grego]

Congislieri,

I haven't read the thread, and don't care. I am going to report you to the High Council of 5, and you will lose your position immediately! I have already ordered a UFO to kidnap you during the closing prayer. That's what you get for trying to teach grace!!

[Nevo]

Consiglieri,

I think you should take a look at Eugene England's discussion of grace in his review of How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation (BYU Studies 38, no. 3 [1999]: 191-201).

He notes that "the crucial beginning of the journey of salvation (receiving Christ and being released from the bondage of sin--that is, becoming 'justified') is made possible through grace, not merit or works." However, unlike Protestant grace, which has "God freely doing something absolutely crucial for and to us in order to save some us from hell," Mormon grace "involves God freely doing something absolutely crucial to help all of us become new, saved beings." "Mormon grace begins in God's loving response to our intrinsic moral agency and thus emphasizes our choice, 'growing in grace,' and trying to change ourselves through repentance and righteousness into 'new creatures,' all of which results in a huge variety of 'degrees' of individual salvation" (192-93).

He continues: "Modern revelation teaches that salvation is a condition, a soul's state of being (Mosiah 3:12, 19), in fact a variety conditions. Mosiah 2:38-39 makes it clear that hell itself is a state of internal being rather than an external place. Such states of soul are not simply given or created by God; they are achieved or lost through a combination of our response to God's enabling opportunities, to his potentially transforming love in the Atonement. Salvation requires becoming 'new creatures in Christ' through our sincere participation in the saving ordinances and obedience to moral law, including service to others" (194).

[AusieMormon]

This coming Sunday, we will be covering those texts from the gospels dealing with the Savior's agony in Gethsemane.

As the Gospel Doctrine Sunday School teacher, I feel it an invitation to address the subject of the salvation offered us by Jesus, which is through no work of our own, but solely through his grace.

It has been my perception that the LDS Church has been modifying its teachings on grace over the last three decades, which I tend to see as a reclaiming of Book of Mormon doctrine on the subject.

Any thoughts about how I can do this in such a manner as to avoid offending the class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

My suggestion would be to start with the content in the talk by Thomas B Griffith, "The Very Root of Christian Doctrine". He quotes GBH and other apostles and uses the BOM to validate grace as it should have always been taught. There have been some recent GA talks that are very useful. One by Bruce C Hafen, "The 'Atonement: All for All". Also see Elder Nelson's recent talk on repentance clarifies the relationship between the work of repentance to the cleansing power of the atonement. I also like Elder Bednar's analogy of the pickle to describe conversion, it has vital elements of grace in there to.

Point out his first statement. He didn't come out and say that traditionally the church had avoided the doctrine of grace. The rest of the talk is great too.

Also I remember Bro Millet relayed an experience at the Joseph Smith Symposium, where as a young man remembered his father telling that we didn't believe in grace. If you read this to the class you might be able to pose a question why would a knowledgeable Bishop say that we do not believe in grace when it is so plain in the scriptures.

Another way would be to use quotes by GAs on the sin of self-sufficiency. I like how Colleen Harrision's book "He did deliver me from Bondage".(Which was cleared as Doctrinally sound by the presiding Bishopric and used in LDS family services) deals with overcoming insurmountable problems, isn't sin an insurmountable problem? once we have sinned we come under condemnation of the Law of justice.

I guess it will depend on who you are teaching as to how you will raise this very important principle. But I would also be cautious that you don't over do it. I remember a talk Elder Bednar at BYU Idaho regarding not getting cough up in gospel hobbies.

First, as we become more spiritually mature and increasingly steadfast and immovable, we focus upon and strive to understand the fundamental and foundational doctrines of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Disciples who are steadfast and immovable do not become fanatics or extremists, are not over zealous, and are not preoccupied with misguided gospel hobbies.

President Joseph F. Smith emphasized:

We frequently look about us and see people who incline to extremes, who are fanatical. We may be sure that this class of people do not understand the gospel. They have forgotten, if they ever knew, that it is very unwise to take a fragment of truth and treat it as if it were the whole thing. (Gospel Doctrine, p. 122)

And Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated:

It is . . . my experience that people who ride gospel hobbies, who try to qualify themselves as experts in some specialized field, who try to make the whole plan of salvation revolve around some field of particular interest to them- it is my experience that such persons are usually spiritually immature and spiritually unstable. This includes those who devote themselves- as though by divine appointment- to setting forth the signs of the times; or to expounding about the Second Coming; or, to a faddist interpretation of the Word of Wisdom; or, to a twisted emphasis on temple work or any other doctrine or practice. The Jews of Jesusâ?? day made themselves hobbyists and extremists in the field of Sabbath observance, and it colored and blackened their whole way of worship. We would do well to have a sane, rounded, and balanced approach to the whole gospel and all of its doctrines. (Doctrines of the Restoration, p. 232, emphasis added)

Although you can never speak too much about the Atonement of Christ. Jacob 4:12.

Just some incoherent ideas

[AusieMormon]

Your words seem to imply a fundamental ignorance of LDS doctrine which has not changed at all over the time period specified (and, I would argue, never has changed at all in any time period). No one will be offended if you teach from the scriptures.....

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23.

And thus we see that the LDS Church has taught since it's inception, as the scriptures do, that there are requirements for salvation.

There have been some discussion regarding 2 Nephi 25:23 and what it mean by "all we can do". I have a suggestion as to how to gage whether we have done all we can do. D&C 123:17 is a key. Sometimes we think if we strive enough, no matter the consequences (becoming grumpy, pushing away our loved ones, neglecting our family for a calling ect) we can obtain the grace we need now. This scripture says that we do all we can cheerfully and stop and rely on the Lords grace.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Thanks for the contributions, everyone. This is one of my favorite threads so far.