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This Week In Sunday School


consiglieri

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For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23.

How about just this once, we change the emphasis to:

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23.

It is not the doctrine that bothers me, it is the almost 100% emphasis on the "after all we can do" part. Personally, I think the emphasis is way out of balance, and would like to have a discussion in Sunday School, just once, just once that doesn't squash grace with the incessant, "yea, but..." phrases.

Somebody menntions briefly "grace", then goes on for 20 minutes about works, obedience, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love any sermon on obedience. But "grace" deserves more attention.

I think Consigieri has a great point, and it does justice to bring balance to the doctrine.

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Thank you for bringing up the very important concept that Charity is a gift of the Spirit obtained from God, and not something we can gain on our own through diligent striving.

A concept that violates the verses I gave.

It is Moroni 7:47, which indicates charity comes from God through prayer:

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

And in our discussion, we should not overlook 1 Corinthians 13, which seems to indicate that charity is one of the gifts of the Spirit that will endure.

Yet the other verses I cited show that charity is also developed on our own which is why I said 'in part". The verses preceeding 7:47 shows that it is much more than prayer that causes us to be filled with charity.

BCSPace aptly cites 2 Nephi 25:23, which has two possible ways of being interpreted:

1) We only receive grace if we have done everything we can.

2) After all that we can do, it is still grace that saves us (and not all the junk that we did).

As of late, I have begun to lean more towards the latter interpretation (and when compared to the Mosiah verses above, it tends to make more sense). It is G-dâ??s grace that saves us, period. He might ask us to do a couple of things to partake of that grace (and to be justified, and sanctified), but in the end it is still His grace. "...of what have [we] to boast?"

2) is not a possible interpretation. There is no back up for it. So far, the justifications used to show it has ignored the other verses on the subject, a modus operandi reminiscent of the way Protestant and Evangelicals interpret scripture.

If your interpretation can't account for all verses on the subject, it is by nature, invalid.

Then you may have a problem with my position that the Book of Mormon teaches salvation by grace alone.

The BoM teaches no such thing. Neither does the Bible.

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As opposed to the modus operandi utilized by the Pharisees?

Hey, my good budddddy. Do yourself a favor and pick up Bruce C. Hafen's trilogy on the atonement: The Broken Heart, The Believing Heart, and The Belonging Heart; some of the best works on the nature of the atonement, grace, works, the fall, etc.

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This coming Sunday, we will be covering those texts from the gospels dealing with the Savior's agony in Gethsemane.

As the Gospel Doctrine Sunday School teacher, I feel it an invitation to address the subject of the salvation offered us by Jesus, which is through no work of our own, but solely through his grace.

It has been my perception that the LDS Church has been modifying its teachings on grace over the last three decades, which I tend to see as a reclaiming of Book of Mormon doctrine on the subject.

Any thoughts about how I can do this in such a manner as to avoid offending the class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

As long as you don't teach that we are "saved by grace through faith alone" I think you will be alright. If you follow the LDS teaching found in the Articles of Faith 3:
Articles of Faith 3

3 We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Then I think you will be alright. The LDS concept of salvation by grace alone is not the same as that which is taught in other churches. In some other faiths the ordinances of the Gospel are not essential to salvation, to the LDS it is. Although it could be argued that the laws and ordinances of the Gospel come because of the grace of God, that the Priesthood comes by the grace of God, and that the restoration comes because of the grace of God. Though our salvation does not come by our good "works" yet one must qualify for that atonement for it to be fully active in our lives. This is done by applying the first principles and ordinances and enduring to the end. As for the Church changing its teachings on grace over the past three decades I must disagree, I think that the doctrine has always been there, it may have been our perception of it that has changed. The empasis on keeping the commandments and it's relationship to the doctrine of grace has not always been fully understood by some members but the doctrine is the same. If you stick to the Gospel Doctrine Sunday School manual you should not have a problem with offending anyone.
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Hey, my good budddddy. Do yourself a favor and pick up Bruce C. Hafen's trilogy on the atonement: The Broken Heart, The Believing Heart, and The Belonging Heart; some of the best works on the nature of the atonement, grace, works, the fall, etc.

I'll add it to the list of 200+ books on my waiting list. I just forked out a little over $300 over the weekend on books, so it will be a while before I whittle away at my list anymore.

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This is a fascinating discussion. Personally, the interpretation that consiglieri is getting at is actually rather close to the Roman Catholic view of salvation, in that the works that cooperate with God's grace in our salvation are themselves the result of God's grace, not of ourselves. It is a view that I have been examining more closely lately, and find much I agree with.

The LDS view that has almost always been presented to me (whether by missionaries, LDS friends, and books recommended by LDS) is the one espoused by BCSpace, which has always turned me away. The view that "after all we can do" is akin to "in spite of all we do" seems quite recent in my experience, and is a most welcome nuance. It is also much more realistic, when looked at in light of human being's everyday experiences and struggles.

Please continue, this is perhaps the most interesting thread I've read in months! <_<:unsure:

Take care, everyone :P

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[...]

2) is not a possible interpretation. There is no back up for it. So far, the justifications used to show it has ignored the other verses on the subject, a modus operandi reminiscent of the way Protestant and Evangelicals interpret scripture.

If your interpretation can't account for all verses on the subject, it is by nature, invalid.

[...]

After taking a breather, methinks I need to clarify.

I stated as a possible interpretation:

2) After all that we can do, it is still grace that saves us (and not all the junk that we did).

Which was simplistic, and didn't really convey what I was after.

What do we have to do to be saved from physical death? Nothing. It is a free gift to all. What do we have to do to be saved from our sins? Not a whole lot. We pay a farthing of our efforts/lives to G-d (which was a gift from Him to begin with), by obeying Him (i.e. "works"/"faith") and He repays us infinitely with eternal life. The things we do are not what saves us per se. It is G-d's grace that saves us. He has asked us to do some things, but those things are so infinitesimally miniscule in comparison to the reward that it is ultimately His grace. After all we can do, we are still unprofitable servants, yet He rewards us nonetheless.

Better?

No?

Maybe?

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I agree with Consiqlieri and many of the others here. We are saved by the grace of God alone. Not thru anything we do. I can do good things from here until forever and that won't get me anywhere in the afterlife without the grace of God.

I believe we are to follow Christ's example and be obedient. I believe this has much to do with exaltation, but honestly your heart has more to do with it than your actions. Now if your actions are due to following your heart, you have a winning number........with the grace of God. But if you are just doing the actions of good works for your reward, you will be sorely disappointed. And either way, without God's grace, we are done.

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It is my impression that Mormons tend to find repugnant any mention of "saved by grace" even though that doctrine is fleshed out in the Book of Mormon. I think it is time for the LDS to reclaim the concept.

Perhaps you could volunteer to be present in my class to observe the reaction, and to interpose your body in the way of vegetable projectiles as needed?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

What planet are you on, that you would even get this "impression"? That is the impression given by anti-mormonism in their bearing false witness. It has nothing to do with Mormonism or Mormons.

Also, why are you even a Gospel Doctrine teacher if this is how you view the Church?

The Church has always taught that we are saved by Grace, and Grace alone. Recognizing the importance of TRUE DISCIPLESHIP in the form of Faithful Obedience (i.e. works) for our ultimate Exaltation with the Father and the Son in the Celestial Kingdom does nothing against what Grace is and does.

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Taking advantage of it.

Nicely done.

[technically, learning of the atonement HELPS us take advantage of it, but I see what you did there.]

I really do recommend that Oaks talk; it has helped me a lot; because I am a voracious reader who needs to be reminded to focus sometimes. It gave me hope that it is possible.

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This is a fascinating discussion. Personally, the interpretation that consiglieri is getting at is actually rather close to the Roman Catholic view of salvation, in that the works that cooperate with God's grace in our salvation are themselves the result of God's grace, not of ourselves. It is a view that I have been examining more closely lately, and find much I agree with.

The LDS view that has almost always been presented to me (whether by missionaries, LDS friends, and books recommended by LDS) is the one espoused by BCSpace, which has always turned me away. The view that "after all we can do" is akin to "in spite of all we do" seems quite recent in my experience, and is a most welcome nuance. It is also much more realistic, when looked at in light of human being's everyday experiences and struggles.

Please continue, this is perhaps the most interesting thread I've read in months! <_<:unsure:

Take care, everyone :P

Then it's clear you never understood LDS Theology in this matter in the first place.

We have always been saved by grace alone.... The "After all we can do" has always simply refered to us living our lives the best we can and enduring to the end in Faith and obedience to the Lord, and is thus important in where we ultimately end up as Christ admonished us to do. A slothful servant no matter how much "truth" (or true christianity) he thinks he knows will still never be the Fathers child.

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What planet are you on, that you would even get this "impression"? That is the impression given by anti-mormonism in their bearing false witness. It has nothing to do with Mormonism or Mormons.

Also, why are you even a Gospel Doctrine teacher if this is how you view the Church?

The Church has always taught that we are saved by Grace, and Grace alone. Recognizing the importance of TRUE DISCIPLESHIP in the form of Faithful Obedience (i.e. works) for our ultimate Exaltation with the Father and the Son in the Celestial Kingdom does nothing against what Grace is and does.

Personally I thought Consiglieri said that a bit tongue in cheek. Meaning I thought he was being sarcastic about that because the anti's say that. I could be wrong, but that is how I read his remark.

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It is my impression that Mormons tend to find repugnant any mention of "saved by grace" even though that doctrine is fleshed out in the Book of Mormon. I think it is time for the LDS to reclaim the concept.

Perhaps you could volunteer to be present in my class to observe the reaction, and to interpose your body in the way of vegetable projectiles as needed?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

May I be blunt consiglieri? Your framing of these questions every time you are about to teach leaves the distinct impression that you hold members in rather low regard, and seem to refer to them not only in a disdainful manner but as if you were not a member. It is this and NOT your subject matter that leads me to question why you are teaching in the first place. Hopefully I am wrong, but I do think some respect for those who attend your class would do your teaching well. Just a thought.

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I have been preaching salvation by grace for some time now. As a member of our stake High Council, I speak regularly in the wards. I have spoke on this topic frequently. I have brought it up in High Council meetings and recommended it as a topic for the Stake President to address in Stake Conference. I have raised a few eyebrows, but I have not yet been censured. Here is how I see it:

When one accepts Christ and through faith repents and enters a covenant with Him through baptism, the gift of salvation is given. This gift is not earned in any way, nor is it deserved, it is freely given. If one were to die at this moment, he would be secure in his salvation. Now, this is not the end of the story, however. Baptism is only the "strait gate" which puts us on the "narrow path" to God. We must stay on this path. Some travel the path faster than others, but as long as we remain on the path, we are safe. Because we have been given much, the Lord expects much of us, which is where obedience and the ordinances come in. These things keep us on the path. It is possible to veer off of the path and lose the gift which has been given, but as we are not expected to run faster than we are able, where we are on the path is not as important as just being on the path. If we try to make the journey by following some other path, even if we work very hard at it, we will never arrive at the destination. Without the initial gift of Christ, through His grace, we cannot enter the gate, thus we cannot gain access to the path. So, it is our works that keep us on the path, but it is the grace of Christ that put us there, therefore, we are saved by grace. We can, however, fall from grace.

T-Shirt

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It has been my perception that the LDS Church has been modifying its teachings on grace over the last three decades, which I tend to see as a reclaiming of Book of Mormon doctrine on the subject.

I think there is enough variety in our history that we aren't so much modifying as re-emphasizing. I would be surprised if anyone objected to saved by grace but if they do pulling out historical teachings might be helpful. In my experience, members may vigorously defend something in a simplistic manner (which we are forced to do in such short time periods) but when push comes to shove we will always return to no amount of works will get us through the door. I liked the way Prof Keller put it (a former Protestant minister). He said that as a bishop he found out if his members believed or accepted the atonement by asking them if they woudl go to the CK if they died today. If they said no, they didn't accept the atonement.

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Obiwan: Unfortunately, there are some in the Church who focus on works, and forget the grace. Its unfortunate, but it is true.

I agree with Consiqlieri and many of the others here. We are saved by the grace of God alone. Not thru anything we do. I can do good things from here until forever and that won't get me anywhere in the afterlife without the grace of God.

I believe we are to follow Christ's example and be obedient. I believe this has much to do with exaltation, but honestly your heart has more to do with it than your actions. Now if your actions are due to following your heart, you have a winning number........with the grace of God. But if you are just doing the actions of good works for your reward, you will be sorely disappointed. And either way, without God's grace, we are done.

Elder Oaks gave a great talk on the principle. "The Challenge To Become."

The Apostle Paul taught that the Lord's teachings and teachers were given that we may all attain "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph. 4:13). This process requires far more than acquiring knowledge. It is not even enough for us to be convinced of the gospel; we must act and think so that we are converted by it. In contrast to the institutions of the world, which teach us to know something, the gospel of Jesus Christ challenges us to become something.

Many Bible and modern scriptures speak of a final judgment at which all persons will be rewarded according to their deeds or works or the desires of their hearts. But other scriptures enlarge upon this by referring to our being judged by the condition we have achieved.

The prophet Nephi describes the Final Judgment in terms of what we have become: "And if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God" (1 Ne. 15:33; emphasis added). Moroni declares, "He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still" (Morm. 9:14; emphasis added; see also Rev. 22:11-12; 2 Ne. 9:16; D&C 88:35). The same would be true of "selfish" or "disobedient" or any other personal attribute inconsistent with the requirements of God. Referring to the "state" of the wicked in the Final Judgment, Alma explains that if we are condemned by our words, our works, and our thoughts, "we shall not be found spotless; . . . and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God" (Alma 12:14).

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts--what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts--what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

A parable illustrates this understanding. A wealthy father knew that if he were to bestow his wealth upon a child who had not yet developed the needed wisdom and stature, the inheritance would probably be wasted. The father said to his child:

"All that I have I desire to give you--not only my wealth, but also my position and standing among men. That which I have I can easily give you, but that which I am you must obtain for yourself. You will qualify for your inheritance by learning what I have learned and by living as I have lived. I will give you the laws and principles by which I have acquired my wisdom and stature. Follow my example, mastering as I have mastered, and you will become as I am, and all that I have will be yours."

This parable parallels the pattern of heaven. The gospel of Jesus Christ promises the incomparable inheritance of eternal life, the fulness of the Father, and reveals the laws and principles by which it can be obtained.

We qualify for eternal life through a process of conversion. As used here, this word of many meanings signifies not just a convincing but a profound change of nature. Jesus used this meaning when he taught His chief Apostle the difference between a testimony and a conversion. Jesus asked his disciples, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 16:13). Next He asked, "But whom say ye that I am?

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 16:15-17).

Peter had a testimony. He knew that Jesus was the Christ, the promised Messiah, and he declared it. To testify is to know and to declare.

Later on, Jesus taught these same men about conversion, which is far more than testimony. When the disciples asked who was the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, "Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 18:2-4; emphasis added).

Later, the Savior confirmed the importance of being converted, even for those with a testimony of the truth. In the sublime instructions given at the Last Supper, He told Simon Peter, "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren" (Luke 22:32).

In order to strengthen his brethren--to nourish and lead the flock of God--this man who had followed Jesus for three years, who had been given the authority of the holy apostleship, who had been a valiant teacher and testifier of the Christian gospel, and whose testimony had caused the Master to declare him blessed still had to be "converted."

Jesus' challenge shows that the conversion He required for those who would enter the kingdom of heaven (see Matt. 18:3) was far more than just being converted to testify to the truthfulness of the gospel. To testify is to know and to declare. The gospel challenges us to be "converted," which requires us to do and to become. If any of us relies solely upon our knowledge and testimony of the gospel, we are in the same position as the blessed but still unfinished Apostles whom Jesus challenged to be "converted." We all know someone who has a strong testimony but does not act upon it so as to be converted. For example, returned missionaries, are you still seeking to be converted, or are you caught up in the ways of the world?

The needed conversion by the gospel begins with the introductory experience the scriptures call being "born again" (e.g., Mosiah 27:25; Alma 5:49; John 3:7; 1 Pet. 1:23). In the waters of baptism and by receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, we become the spiritual "sons and daughters" of Jesus Christ, "new creatures" who can "inherit the kingdom of God" (Mosiah 27:25-26).

In teaching the Nephites, the Savior referred to what they must become. He challenged them to repent and be baptized and be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, "that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day" (3 Ne. 27:20). He concluded: "Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am" (3 Ne. 27:27).

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan by which we can become what children of God are supposed to become. This spotless and perfected state will result from a steady succession of covenants, ordinances, and actions, an accumulation of right choices, and from continuing repentance. "This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God" (Alma 34:32).

Now is the time for each of us to work toward our personal conversion, toward becoming what our Heavenly Father desires us to become. As we do so, we should remember that our family relationships--even more than our Church callings--are the setting in which the most important part of that development can occur. The conversion we must achieve requires us to be a good husband and father or a good wife and mother. Being a successful Church leader is not enough. Exaltation is an eternal family experience, and it is our mortal family experiences that are best suited to prepare us for it.

The Apostle John spoke of what we are challenged to become when he said: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn. 3:2; see also Moro. 7:48).

I hope the importance of conversion and becoming will cause our local leaders to reduce their concentration on statistical measures of actions and to focus more on what our brothers and sisters are and what they are striving to become.

Our needed conversions are often achieved more readily by suffering and adversity than by comfort and tranquillity, as Elder Hales taught us so beautifully this morning. Father Lehi promised his son Jacob that God would "consecrate [his] afflictions for [his] gain" (2 Ne. 2:2). The Prophet Joseph was promised that "thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; and then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high" (D&C 121:7-:P.

Most of us experience some measure of what the scriptures call "the furnace of affliction" (Isa. 48:10; 1 Ne. 20:10). Some are submerged in service to a disadvantaged family member. Others suffer the death of a loved one or the loss or postponement of a righteous goal like marriage or childbearing. Still others struggle with personal impairments or with feelings of rejection, inadequacy, or depression. Through the justice and mercy of a loving Father in Heaven, the refinement and sanctification possible through such experiences can help us achieve what God desires us to become.

We are challenged to move through a process of conversion toward that status and condition called eternal life. This is achieved not just by doing what is right, but by doing it for the right reason --for the pure love of Christ. The Apostle Paul illustrated this in his famous teaching about the importance of charity (see 1 Cor. 13). The reason charity never fails and the reason charity is greater than even the most significant acts of goodness he cited is that charity, "the pure love of Christ" (Moro. 7:47), is not an act but a condition or state of being. Charity is attained through a succession of acts that result in a conversion. [These acts bring us the Spirit, which in turn, sanctifies and changes our nature. We clean the glass, the water cleans the glass, and soon, the clean water can fill the glass.] Charity is something one becomes. Thus, as Moroni declared, "except men shall have charity they cannot inherit" the place prepared for them in the mansions of the Father (Ether 12:34; emphasis added).

All of this helps us understand an important meaning of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard, which the Savior gave to explain what the kingdom of heaven is like. As you remember, the owner of the vineyard hired laborers at different times of the day. Some he sent into the vineyard early in the morning, others about the third hour, and others in the sixth and ninth hours. Finally, in the eleventh hour he sent others into the vineyard, promising that he would also pay them "whatsoever is right" (Matt. 20:7).

At the end of the day the owner of the vineyard gave the same wage to every worker, even to those who had come in the eleventh hour. When those who had worked the entire day saw this, "they murmured against the goodman of the house" (Matt. 20:11). The owner did not yield but merely pointed out that he had done no one any wrong, since he had paid each man the agreed amount.

Like other parables, this one can teach several different and valuable principles. For present purposes its lesson is that the Master's reward in the Final Judgment will not be based on how long we have labored in the vineyard. We do not obtain our heavenly reward by punching a time clock. What is essential is that our labors in the workplace of the Lord have caused us to become something. For some of us, this requires a longer time than for others. What is important in the end is what we have become by our labors. Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard. These workers are like the prepared dry mix to which it is only necessary to "add water"--the perfecting ordinance of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. With that addition--even in the eleventh hour--these workers are in the same state of development and qualified to receive the same reward as those who have labored long in the vineyard.

This parable teaches us that we should never give up hope and loving associations with family members and friends whose fine qualities (see Moro. 7:5-14) evidence their progress toward what a loving Father would have them become. Similarly, the power of the Atonement and the principle of repentance show that we should never give up on loved ones who now seem to be making many wrong choices.

Instead of being judgmental about others, we should be concerned about ourselves. We must not give up hope. We must not stop striving. We are children of God, and it is possible for us to become what our Heavenly Father would have us become.

How can we measure our progress? The scriptures suggest various ways. I will mention only two.

After King Benjamin's great sermon, many of his hearers cried out that the Spirit of the Lord "has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually" (Mosiah 5:2). If we are losing our desire to do evil, we are progressing toward our heavenly goal.

The Apostle Paul said that persons who have received the Spirit of God "have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16). I understand this to mean that persons who are proceeding toward the needed conversion are beginning to see things as our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, see them. They are hearing His voice instead of the voice of the world, and they are doing things in His way instead of by the ways of the world.

I testify of Jesus Christ, our Savior and our Redeemer, whose Church this is. I testify with gratitude of the plan of the Father under which, through the Resurrection and Atonement of our Savior, we have the assurance of immortality and the opportunity to become what is necessary for eternal life. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

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Then it's clear you never understood LDS Theology in this matter in the first place.

We have always been saved by grace alone....

I could accept that, but I remind you that this more hardline view is the view that was almost always explicitly taught to me by LDS themselves. Believe me, if the kind of interpretation espoused by consiglieri and others were coming out in my discussions, I would have jumped on it happily.

And given that there are several LDS on this very thread that seem to reject the idea that one is saved by grace alone, it seems quite clear that this understanding is not a creation of rabid antis bearing false witness. I would also recommend some of Robert Millet's works on this topic. He is rather explicit in affirming that he is rediscovering LDS teachings that have become obscured by a high-intensity theology of works. Stephen Robinson also said much the same thing, if I recall.

Take care, everyone :P

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I liked the way Prof Keller put it (a former Protestant minister). He said that as a bishop he found out if his members believed or accepted the atonement by asking them if they woudl go to the CK if they died today. If they said no, they didn't accept the atonement.

Just a clarifying question, T-shirt. Would juliann's above post line up with your understanding? I guess I'm wondering if "salvation" in your post carried the meaning of "resurrection only", as in some LDS discourse, or if you were referring to "exaltation", which would seem to be the reading in juliann's example.

Take care :P

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Just a clarifying question, T-shirt. Would juliann's above post line up with your understanding? I guess I'm wondering if "salvation" in your post carried the meaning of "resurrection only", as in some LDS discourse, or if you were referring to "exaltation", which would seem to be the reading in juliann's example.

Take care :P

Exaltation.

T-Shirt

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