Nicene Creed

[chasjohn]

In April 2007 Conference, Pres. Hinckley indicated that we don't believe in the Nicene Creed. We sent a copy of his talk to a non-member cousin back East. She wrote back and said:

" I read the Creed and wondered what part of it do Mormons not believe and why? This isn't asked in a negative or hostile way by any means. I am just interested. As I said in my last email, I like to learn, and I appreciate your help. thanks a million. Below is a copy of the Creed:

NICENE CREED

WE BELIEVE in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come.

Amen. "

Can ayone help me with an answer to her question?

Charles Johnson

[emeliza]

NICENE CREED

WE BELIEVE in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father. ---we don't believe they are of one Being, but separate Beings.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, ---not sure we would call the Holy Spirit, the Lord

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. -----We don't believe in the one holy catholic Church

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come.

Amen. "

Can ayone help me with an answer to her question?

Charles Johnson

Otherwise I think everything else is good in it. There isn't as much we don't agree with to my knowledge with this one. We however greatly disagree with the Athanasius Creed. Course someone else might give you better answers.

[bluebell]

Otherwise I think everything else is good in it. It isn't much we don't agree with to my knowledge with this one. We however greatly disagree with the Athanasius Creed. Course someone else might give you better answers.

Is the word 'catholic' in the creed being used to speak of the Catholic church or being used as an adjective to describe Christ's true church (catholic, as i understand it, means universal or something like that)?

[emeliza]

Is the word 'catholic' in the creed being used to speak of the Catholic church or being used as an adjective to describe Christ's true church (catholic, as i understand it, means universal or something like that)?

I actually think it is being used as an adjective now, but originally I don't think it was, so therefore I think that wording would need to be changed for it to be considered in harmony with the LDS Church.

[bluebell]

I actually think it is being used as an adjective now, but originally I don't think it was, so therefore I think that wording would need to be changed for it to be considered in harmony with the LDS Church.

I have no idea myself but that very well could be.

[jadams_4242]

In April 2007 Conference, Pres. Hinckley indicated that we don't believe in the Nicene Creed. We sent a copy of his talk to a non-member cousin back East. She wrote back and said:

" I read the Creed and wondered what part of it do Mormons not believe and why? This isn't asked in a negative or hostile way by any means. I am just interested. As I said in my last email, I like to learn, and I appreciate your help. thanks a million. Below is a copy of the Creed:

NICENE CREED

WE BELIEVE in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come.

Amen. "

Can ayone help me with an answer to her question?

Charles Johnson

............the first thing that jumps out at me is "the only" son of god.

second........... "of one being" with the father.

third...made "incarnate" from the virgin mary,,,and was made man. { both meaning the same thing.}

fourth...he suffered death and was "buried"..

fifth...the holy spirit is not the "giver of life whom proceeds forth from the father and the son..

[chasjohn]

Otherwise I think everything else is good in it. There isn't as much we don't agree with to my knowledge with this one. We however greatly disagree with the Athanasius Creed. Course someone else might give you better answers.

I think you got it right Emeliza. Iv'e been doing some research since I made the original post. It seems the Council of Nicea introduced the doctrine of "homoosious" [i had to look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary]. It is the doctrine that the Father and the Son are one substance, or, as the creed states "one being". There are other differences, but this seems to be the major one as far as our belief is concerned.

[The_Monk]

Some of the disagreements we would have with it aren't apparent from reading it in English. For a decent discussion, see http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/rea...e-nicene-creed/

[Geoffthethird]

Some of the disagreements we would have with it aren't apparent from reading it in English. For a decent discussion, see http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/rea...e-nicene-creed/

If you dont mind me asking, but what is wrong with believing in the Trinity. Because if I am right the LDS are not monotheistic

[Garden Girl]

Hi Geoff...

We believe in the Godhead vs the Trinity...

Godhead = The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost... as three separate and distinct beings, not one being...

Incidentially, there was just a discussion on the Trinity a week or so ago... you may want to browse the list of the topics over the past couple months on the various forums (usually Discussion & Dialog) because many things that might be questions to you have already been discussed, some at length...

The Garden Girl

[Geoffthethird]

Well i have read them, and im just wondering how you say that there are multiple Gods or a Godhead when the OT and NT repeatedly say there is only 1 God

[Calm]

"who proceeds from the Father and the Son"

Considering how "proceeds" is defined, I believe this would be a problem for LDS as well.

"eternally begotten of the Father" falls into this category as well.

Substitute "Organizer" for "maker" would better convey the LDS difference in understanding.

You might find this link to the Creeds at the Vatican's website helpful: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P13.HTM

AS well as this:

245 The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father."71 By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity".72 But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: "The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. . . Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,. . . but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son."73 The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: "With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified."74

246 The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)". the Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration... And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."75....

248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father", it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son.77 The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, "legitimately and with good reason",78 for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as "the principle without principle",79 is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.80 This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P17.HTM

[Calm]

Well i have read them, and im just wondering how you say that there are multiple Gods or a Godhead when the OT and NT repeatedly say there is only 1 God

Our belief:

D&C 20: 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.

20 But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.

21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.

22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.

23 He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day;

24 And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father;

25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be savedâ??

26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,

27 As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son;

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

[Calm]

If you dont mind me asking, but what is wrong with believing in the Trinity. Because if I am right the LDS are not monotheistic

And if the Jews or Muslims are right, neither are you.

As far as what is wrong with it, LDS believe it is not based on pure revelation and is contradicted by revelation. But to really explain what we think is wrong with the Trinity, you have to identify which form of Trinitarism that you mean before we can discuss it. There are some forms that we agree with.

[Geoffthethird]

Just like the Nicene Creed says about the Trinity. But basically i see it that its 1 God, but in 3 forms and different types of love. We have the Father who is creator, the Son who is the sacrifice (I deffinetly do not see him as my older brother) and the Spirit who is the comforter. They all exist at the same time, but they are the same being. I know really confusing, but it takes faith.

Another question i always had is why dont you honor Mary? She was the Mother of God and yet Joseph Smith is honored more than her

[jadams_4242]

In April 2007 Conference, Pres. Hinckley indicated that we don't believe in the Nicene Creed. We sent a copy of his talk to a non-member cousin back East. She wrote back and said:

" I read the Creed and wondered what part of it do Mormons not believe and why? This isn't asked in a negative or hostile way by any means. I am just interested. As I said in my last email, I like to learn, and I appreciate your help. thanks a million. Below is a copy of the Creed:

NICENE CREED

WE BELIEVE in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,---------------------------He is not the only son of God.

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.--------------he is not the same being.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,------Incarnate and "made man" are the excat same thing

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.---------------------------Was he buried? {not that i know of}

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. -We dont beleive this doctrine either.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come.

Amen. "

Can ayone help me with an answer to her question?

Charles Johnson

[Calm]

Another question i always had is why dont you honor Mary? She was the Mother of God and yet Joseph Smith is honored more than her

We don't know all that much about Mary.

As far as honouring JS, well, we talk about him alot because of the doctrines, etc. that he gave us. I suspect that if Mary taught doctrine that we would talk about her more, but she is honoured when we discuss the birth of Christ and her role in it.

[Calm]

incarnate and "made man" are the excat same thing

Not exactly. Incarnate means to be made flesh and is speaking of the process, while "made man" is the end result. While repetitive to a certain extent, it is also poetic. The Creed is part ritual and is a teaching and as such, the more elegant the more effective. It also is a matter of emphasis, repetitiveness indicates importance. God's incarnation is very, very important.

Was he buried? {not that i know of}

He was in the tomb with a rock covering the opening during three days, I think this qualifies. The symbolism of baptism being buried beneath the water is reminiscent of this and that doesn't even take three days.

[Geoffthethird]

We don't know all that much about Mary.

As far as honouring JS, well, we talk about him alot because of the doctrines, etc. that he gave us. I suspect that if Mary taught doctrine that we would talk about her more, but she is honoured when we discuss the birth of Christ and her role in it.

Well the Catholics know alot about Mary, and if not them, then the early church fathers. Nonetheless, i still dont see how the Mother of God is not as honored as Joseph Smith. Yes I understand the importance of him in your theology, but Mary was essential as well in giving birth to the Savior, being the Woman who raised him and being his first disciple.

[Ron Beron]

Well the Catholics know alot about Mary, and if not them, then the early church fathers. Nonetheless, i still dont see how the Mother of God is not as honored as Joseph Smith. Yes I understand the importance of him in your theology, but Mary was essential as well in giving birth to the Savior, being the Woman who raised him and being his first disciple.

We do honor Mary, but Mormons do not venerate her. We do not consider her sinless from birth nor do we consider her a mother of only one child, but rather a mother of many children. As to Mary being his first disciple there is ample evidence to indicate that she wasn't all that excited about his ministry even though she knew he was something special.

[zippythepinhead]

The Nicene Creed starts out making sense and then goes off into land. Not to offend, but I cannot comprehend the creed. The Apostles Creed I can understand. The Nicene is too broad to understand.

[Anijen]

Well i have read them, and im just wondering how you say that there are multiple Gods or a Godhead when the OT and NT repeatedly say there is only 1 God

In the Bible there are it least 20 scriptures that talk of or alludes to more than one god also

some of them are;

Gen 1:26

Ps 82:6

From FAIR

The doctrine of deification is still taught in various forms with some modification among the Eastern Orthodox and has been part of Roman Catholicism since Vatican II, although this is not quite as well known. For instance, item number 460 of the Catechism adopted at the Vatican II Council reads:

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature:" "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

[LDSsister2007]

If you dont mind me asking, but what is wrong with believing in the Trinity. Because if I am right the LDS are not monotheistic

Have you read the history of the trinity? It came from paganisim/Roman culture that the RCC combined to win over pagans to chrisitanity(or their church).

From what i understand the LDS church believes there is God the father whom created us, then his son whom was with him, & became flesh & dwelled with us & the holy spirit, three seperate intities with the same purpose of Gods kingdom, not this idea of God becoming his son ,that is what the mainstream christendom churches teach. So in a way , yes trinity meaning 3, but not al l 3 are the same person.

At least this is what i believe & I heard throughout lessons how Jesus Christi is our spiritual brother since when joining through baptisim we are Gods children,therefore we are related to Jesus spiritually.His father is our father.

[emeliza]

Have you read the history of the trinity? It came from paganisim/Roman culture that the RCC combined to win over pagans to chrisitanity(or their church).

From what i understand the LDS church believes there is God the father whom created us, then his son whom was with him, & became flesh & dwelled with us & the holy spirit, three seperate intities with the same purpose of Gods kingdom, not this idea of God becoming his son ,that is what the mainstream christendom churches teach. So in a way , yes trinity meaning 3, but not al l 3 are the same person.

At least this is what i believe & I heard throughout lessons how Jesus Christi is our spiritual brother since when joining through baptisim we are Gods children,therefore we are related to Jesus spiritually.His father is our father.

Trinitarian's don't believe that God became His Son, that is modalism. Trinitarian's believe that all three are together as one being, but not that they metamorph into each other, but always are each other. It is a bit mysterious and there are many different examples....but my understanding is that the Father and Son and Holy Ghost always were, not that God changed into them. There was a great thread awhile back on it that was started by the good Dr. Steuss.

[bluebell]

Trinitarian's don't believe that God became His Son, that is modalism. Trinitarian's believe that all three are together as one being, but not that they metamorph into each other, but always are each other. It is a bit mysterious and there are many different examples....but my understanding is that the Father and Son and Holy Ghost always were, not that God changed into them. There was a great thread awhile back on it that was started by the good Dr. Steuss.

it was explained to me like an egg. The shell is never the yolk and the yolk is never the white-but all three together are still only one egg.

To often in the church we think of the trinity as modalism because we haven't take the time to try to understand it (i know i did anyway).