Nephite Geneology

[poulsenll]

I just did a search of the Book of Mormon using the keyword Jew. After reading all of the verses, I came away with the feeling that the Nephites did not consider themselves, in any way, Jews.

This begins with Nephi himself who says

2 Ne. 25: 1-2, 6

1 NOW I, Nephi, do speak somewhat concerning the words which I have written, which have been spoken by the mouth of Isaiah. For behold, Isaiah spake many things which were hard for many of my people to understand; for they know not concerning the manner of prophesying among the Jews.

2 For I, Nephi, have not taught them many things concerning the manner of the Jews; for their works were works of darkness, and their doings were doings of abominations.

6 But behold, I, Nephi, have not taught my children after the manner of the Jews; but behold, I, of myself, have dwelt at Jerusalem, wherefore I know concerning the regions round about; and I have made mention unto my children concerning the judgments of God, which hath come to pass among the Jews, unto my children, according to all that which Isaiah hath spoken, and I do not write them.

As was pointed out in another thread, Lehi was a descendent of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph and Asenath.

Gen. 41: 45, 50

45 And Pharaoh called Josephâ??s name Zaphnath-paaneah; and he gave him to wife aAsenath the daughter of Potipherah bpriest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.

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50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.

Although many assume that Zoram was a Jew, this is not likely brcause his master was a descencent of Manasseh and as the keeper of the tribe was unlikely to have servents who were not his relatives.

The only group who were described as having a connection to the Jews were the Mulekites and by the time they joined with the people of Mosiah they had lost any traditions or practices of the Jews .

All of this suggests that the Nepjites were anything but Jewish.

Larry P

[No Touch]

Good observation. Again, this I think defies conventional wisdom less, as many non-LDS researchers have theorized about the possibility of Egyptian cultural influence in the Americas.

[SlackTime]

I just did a search of the Book of Mormon using the keyword Jew. After reading all of the verses, I came away with the feeling that the Nephites did not consider themselves, in any way, Jews.

This begins with Nephi himself who says

As was pointed out in another thread, Lehi was a descendent of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph and Asenath.

Although many assume that Zoram was a Jew, this is not likely brcause his master was a descencent of Manasseh and as the keeper of the tribe was unlikely to have servents who were not his relatives.

The only group who were described as having a connection to the Jews were the Mulekites and by the time they joined with the people of Mosiah they had lost any traditions or practices of the Jews .

All of this suggests that the Nepjites were anything but Jewish.

Larry P

As I have heard it, (note that I am not the expert here) there are two ways in which "Jew" is used in the Book of Mormon. One is the traditional sense of those who come from the tribe of Judah. The other is to refer to those Israelites that were not "dispersed", i.e. that remained in Jerusalem and the surrounding area.

Obviously, the Lehites were not of the first type. And I guess almost as obvious they were not of the second type. Since they were dispursed. So no, I don't think they considered themselves Jews. They did however consider themselves of the house of Israel. Nephi brings this out strongly when he was likening Isaiah to his people, in all those much maligned Isaiah quotes.

-SlackTime

[poulsenll]

They did however consider themselves of the house of Israel.

-SlackTime

As did all of those who spent 400 years in Egypt.

Remember that the first thing they did after being brought out of Egypt was to return to the worship of Egyptian gods. What would the culture of the United States be like if between 1492 and 1892, we had been under the rule of the Aztecs? That is to suppose that Spain failed to conquer Mexico.

Larry P

[William Schryver]

I just did a search of the Book of Mormon using the keyword Jew. After reading all of the verses, I came away with the feeling that the Nephites did not consider themselves, in any way, Jews.

This begins with Nephi himself who says

As was pointed out in another thread, Lehi was a descendent of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph and Asenath.

Although many assume that Zoram was a Jew, this is not likely brcause his master was a descencent of Manasseh and as the keeper of the tribe was unlikely to have servents who were not his relatives.

The only group who were described as having a connection to the Jews were the Mulekites and by the time they joined with the people of Mosiah they had lost any traditions or practices of the Jews .

All of this suggests that the Nepjites were anything but Jewish.

Larry P

Larry,

I've been making the same study of late -- you're stealing my thunder here!

Actually, I had planned on making this point in the paper I'm writing on the topic of my most recent thread. And I think you are on to something here. And, I think your observation (if true) factors into my prior argument that Lehi and his family, although certainly "Israelites," did not self-identify with their contemporaries in "the land of Jerusalem." I continue to entertain the notion that they might have been of Egyptian origin. When the Assyrian's invaded Israel (the kingdom of Israel) over a century prior to Lehi, there were some of the northern Israelites who fled into Egypt. Of course, the inheritance of Manasseh was in the north, in the area the Assyrians conquered.

Anyway, I don't want to play all my cards at this point, but I did want to acknowledge that I believe you are on to something here -- and that it is consistent with my prior arguments about Egyptian being the language of Lehi's fathers.

[poulsenll]

Larry,

I've been making the same study of late -- you're stealing my thunder here!

Don't complain. You got me started on this line of thought. I started out being interested in the Mayan glyph system and it's relationship to the language of the Nephites. This led to the conclusion that because of the abscence of the /r/ sound in Mayan that the Mayans could not be the Nephites or the Jaredites. Then you called my attention to the Brass Plates. I had never paid any attention to what the Book of Mormon said about the language in which they were written.

I guess I am no better in this respect than those who read the references to geography in the Book of Mormon and never see the significance of what is actually said in the text.

Larry P

[William Schryver]

Don't complain. You got me started on this line of thought. I started out being interested in the Mayan glyph system and it's relationship to the language of the Nephites. This led to the conclusion that because of the abscence of the /r/ sound in Mayan that the Mayans could not be the Nephites or the Jaredites. Then you called my attention to the Brass Plates. I had never paid any attention to what the Book of Mormon said about the language in which they were written.

I guess I am no better in this respect than those who read the references to geography in the Book of Mormon and never see the significance of what is actually said in the text.

Larry P

Well, as you know, I've been the recipient of a goodly amount of ridicule and even derision for having even suggested the idea that Lehi and his family could have been primarily Egyptian-speakers. However, I believe that it is a conclusion that can be supported by the text -- or at least it can be supported that Lehi and his family had an inordinate predilection for Egyptian that goes far beyond what one might expect of a common "Jew" in 600 B.C. I intend to continue my study along these lines ...

[charity]

I enjoy your work and thoughts very much. I am continually challenged that I have been very lazy in my study of the Book of Mormon. My wrong assumptions keep falling. I hope you will continue to post your observations.

[poulsenll]

I enjoy your work and thoughts very much. I am continually challenged that I have been very lazy in my study of the Book of Mormon. My wrong assumptions keep falling. I hope you will continue to post your observations.

Charity

Thanks for the kind words.

Larry P

[myleague]

Well, as you know, I've been the recipient of a goodly amount of ridicule and even derision for having even suggested the idea that Lehi and his family could have been primarily Egyptian-speakers. However, I believe that it is a conclusion that can be supported by the text -- or at least it can be supported that Lehi and his family had an inordinate predilection for Egyptian that goes far beyond what one might expect of a common "Jew" in 600 B.C. I intend to continue my study along these lines ...

If Egyptian was their native tongue, why did Nephi state that if they had room enough to write in Hebrew the book would be more correct? Is there deficiency in Egyptian over Hebrew? Or was Nephi telling us that their Native tongue was Hebrew but he was also learned in Egyptian? And that Egyptian was a way to compact and simplify their writings.

[William Schryver]

myleague:

If Egyptian was their native tongue, why did Nephi state that if they had room enough to write in Hebrew the book would be more correct? Is there deficiency in Egyptian over Hebrew? Or was Nephi telling us that their Native tongue was Hebrew but he was also learned in Egyptian? And that Egyptian was a way to compact and simplify their writings.

1- No one is necessarily suggesting that Egyptian was Lehiâ??s â??nativeâ? tongue. At least not at this point. Iâ??ve suggested the possibility, based on certain things written in 1 Nephi. But all Iâ??m really arguing at this stage is that the language of Lehiâ??s â??fathersâ? was Egyptian â?? for Nephi states as much in 1 Nephi. I consider that there is some evidence to suggest that Lehi and his family, though he â??dwelt at Jerusalem in all his daysâ? may not have self-identified with the â??Jews,â? but rather with his Egyptian-oriented ancestors.

2- Nephi didnâ??t state that â??if they had room enough to write in Hebrew the book would be more correct.â? Moroni did -- 1000 years later. In fact, it is the only mention of â??Hebrewâ? in the Book of Mormon. Nephi only speaks of Egyptian whenever he speaks of language. And, Moroni was not comparing Hebrew to Egyptian â?? he was comparing it to the Nephiteâ??s â??Reformed Egyptian.â? We donâ??t know at what point the Nephites developed this altered version of Egyptian â?? which is apparently some kind of â??shorthandâ? method of writing Egyptian. Conventional Egyptian would take at least as much room as conventional Hebrew. And, there is no substantial difference (in terms of expressive power) between Egyptian and Hebrew. (I am, of course, speaking of â??hieraticâ? Egyptian, which is the â??hand-writtenâ? version of Egyptian â?? â??hieroglyphicâ? being primarily a â??carvedâ? version of the language.) In most respects, hieratic Egyptian and Hebrew are quite similar languages.

[cjcampbell]

Nephi did not consider himself to be a Jew. He always refers to 'Jews' as if they were somebody else. In fact, Lehi is surprised to find that he even has any Israelite ancestry. He did not know that until he got the brass plates.

I have always thought that Lehi and his family and those who went with him were merchants, probably of Asian origin, but who had been living in the Middle East for some time, possibly more than one generation.