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Polygamy - A Hypothetical Justification


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In my random readings, I have run across two articles, one of which got me thinking women don't become Perdition - ever - and another which explicitly taught that women don't become Perdition - ever.

We don't know the gender of the fallen third, but it seems reasonable, from the above, that it did not include women. If we assume an initial distribution of male/female intelligences at 1:1 (supposing God made males and females from an initial neuter intelligence, perhaps), then there were, after the war in heaven, 3 female spirits to every male spirit. Given that ONLY males become Perdition, this life further reduces the male : female ratio among the potential exaltees.

Since, as we know, males and females must be welded together to make a whole human, as neither the lone male nor the lone female can be exalted without the other, and we also know that God has himself instituted polygamy - objections noted and dismissed - it would appear that one male can perform the husband role for multiple women.

Since neither lone males nor lone females can attain their potential without each other, and there is an extreme numerical imbalance between males and females, and one male can husband several women, polygamy seems on its face to be justified by a straightforward application of the pigeonhole principle.

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I don't think that it requires so much thought, or that God's commandments require justification.

I mean we don't sit here and debate why God would ask the Israelites to mutilate the genitalia of male children.

But anyway, I think it comes down to a lot more females qualifying for exaltation than men, and the fact that it would be entirely unfair for women to be denied exaltation on the basis of a lack of suitable spouses.

I mean I don't think it would be completely wrong (although I don't have backup data) to suggest that most failed marriages many times are caused by uncommitted husbands, and that there are probably a lot more good wives than good husbands. I mean how many people haven't known a woman who was with a guy who was no good? Should a woman have to settle for marrying a jerk because all the good men they are likely to meet and recognize are married already?

Forbidding polygamy does more to restrain a woman than it does to liberate her.

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Despite the good theory, because I'm not intelligent enough to say whether it's good evidence or not, I personally could not do that. I actually had a conversation with my fiancee about polygamy the other day. She asked me if I could follow if that was a commandment. I told her that I would have her as my first wife, and always as such. If asked to take multiple wives, I don't think I could. If a bishop asked me to take her sister to wife since her sister's husband died or such, then I could to give financial and fatherly support to the children, but I could never in my life have a child with anyone but her. I know it took a lot for the women who were in polygamist relationships to cope with each other, but for a man to share himself like that must be hard too.

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So here are a few questions this line of reasoning inspires:

Does God know which intelligences are female and male? Did God know that 1/3 of the males would refuse to come to earth? Did God have the ability to balance the male/female ratio from the get-go since he knows which ones will achieve exaltation and which ones won't? If God had the ability to propegate a balanced number, why didn't he? Did God create a plan which enabled the male to have more wives rather than a balance?

If God is omniscent and God is the creator, yes, there would not be a hypothetical of this sort unless God himself wanted the man to have more than one wife. God himself would have to be the one who created such a pigeonhole principle environment.

What does that say about God?

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So here are a few questions this line of reasoning inspires:

Does God know which intelligences are female and male?

If there exists a knowable item of knowledge, he knows it.
Did God know that 1/3 of the males would refuse to come to earth?
There is no way to answer this, given a presupposition of libertarian free will.
Did God have the ability to balance the male/female ratio from the get-go since he knows which ones will achieve exaltation and which ones won't?
I hold that we have libertarian free will, hence, God does not know which ones will achieve exaltation and which ones won't.
If God had the ability to propegate a balanced number, why didn't he?
As a matter of fact, that was one of my initial assumptions.
Did God create a plan which enabled the male to have more wives rather than a balance?
I don't understand your question. It apparently is possible for a male to have more wives than one.
If God is omniscent and God is the creator, yes, there would not be a hypothetical of this sort unless God himself wanted the man to have more than one wife. God himself would have to be the one who created such a pigeonhole principle environment.
Mormonism denies creation from nothing.
What does that say about God?
I'm not sure what you mean.
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If there exists a knowable item of knowledge, he knows it.

There is no way to answer this, given a presupposition of libertarian free will.

I hold that we have libertarian free will, hence, God does not know which ones will achieve exaltation and which ones won't.

So what you believe is that God himself does not know how you turn out? Please clarify. Determinism is different on which angle you approach it. If you are a human, your lack of knowledge provides room for libertarian free will. But if God is all-knowing, He cannot subscribe to libertarian free will. He either knows all, or he doesn't. From His viewpoint, determinism is a given.

Mormonism denies creation from nothing.

This is how I understand it works. There are intelligences floating around. We know from the Proclamation that intelligences have gender. Could God choose to convert that intelligence to a spirit on a very deliberate scale, ensuring that whichever spirits he forms are going to be of a female/male ratio balance, taking into account which spirits he knows will achieve exaltation and which spirits will not?

So while God is not creating from nothing, he is converting on a more exaltation-friendly, balanced gender scale.

This assumes that God has not converted all intelligences into spirits for the purposes of this world but has also worlds without number and countless possibilities for converting that intelligence matter at a different space or time.

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So what you believe is that God himself does not know how you turn out? Please clarify. Determinism is different on which angle you approach it. If you are a human, your lack of knowledge provides room for libertarian free will. But if God is all-knowing, He cannot subscribe to libertarian free will. He either knows all, or he doesn't. From His viewpoint, determinism is a given.

According to libertarianism, future free acts are unknowable, because they don't exist. Hence, God can be all-knowing - he knows all that can be known - and yet not know which future free acts will be actualized.

This is how I understand it works. There are intelligences floating around. We know from the Proclamation that intelligences have gender. Could God choose to convert that intelligence to a spirit on a very deliberate scale, ensuring that whichever spirits he forms are going to be of a female/male ratio balance, taking into account which spirits he knows will achieve exaltation and which spirits will not?
This presupposes determinism.

Further clarification - I meant it is possible that God took an initial neuter intelligence and split it up into a male and a female intelligence. I advance that solely as a speculation.

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Who has ever said that all men should only have one wife, forever and ever and ever?

What if God and a husband/wife all agree to allow more women in a relationship?

... if they all agree, I think there are certain advantages.

Suppose God sent each husband/wife team to a certain planet, and there was nobody else on that planet.

Now suppose God sent a 2nd woman to the husband/wife team, so there were then 3 people on that planet.

Now suppose the 2nd woman said: Hey, where is my husband?

... and God said: Sorry, we had to send him to another planet. He wouldn't accept Celestial laws.

And then the second woman said: Oh, great, where am I supposed to go for a husband?

... and God said: Well, if you want to live by Celestial laws, this is the place.

And then the husband of the 1st woman said: Here am I, send me.

And then the 1st woman said: Okay. I guess I will have to share my husband with you.

And then they all lived together happily ever after, after a little bit of adjustment.

It could happen.

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For the last 30 years, the birth rate for males has been declining.

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For the last 30 years, the birth rate for males has been declining.

I really don't think that is the issue.

It's not about the total number of both men and woman.

It's about the total number of both men and women who will receive a Celestial glory.

If there are more women than men, and I believe there will be, something will have to be done.

... if all the Celestial women want to enjoy the blessings of having children, and a husband.

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For the last 30 years, the birth rate for males has been declining.

So true. In the last 30 years, I canâ??t think of even one male in my family that has given birth.

*Engage serious mode*: Charity, do you have a source for this and/or a study. I'm kind of curious about this (i.e. is it more predominate in certain countries/ethnicities, is it a steady decline or rapid, are there believed to be environment causes, etc.)

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So did God stop creating new spirit children after the "war" in heaven? If so, will He ever start doing so again? If so, will there be another cycle including another "war" in heaven? A new Savior?

Seems like speculation about this stuff is kinda pointless.

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According to libertarianism, future free acts are unknowable, because they don't exist. Hence, God can be all-knowing - he knows all that can be known - and yet not know which future free acts will be actualized.

This presupposes determinism.

Further clarification - I meant it is possible that God took an initial neuter intelligence and split it up into a male and a female intelligence. I advance that solely as a speculation.

Thank you for clarifying. I actually find it refreshing that someone can suggest that God cannot be all-knowing. I am a little more dogmatic with the word omniscient (although it appears I am having troubles spelling it today :P )

Well we are speculating about the gender of intelligence, the Proclamation does not actually go back that far. It says

All human beingsâ??male and femaleâ??are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

It only goes as far as the spirit. So your speculation is possible within mormon theology that God does not assign gender until through the intelligence->spirit conversion process. It would, however, make my speculation easier (and I do assign determinism to omniscience). If God assigns gender in the intelligence->spirit process that means he could more easily balance the equation for the exalted genders.

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So did God stop creating new spirit children after the "war" in heaven?

There was a set number for this world.
If so, will He ever start doing so again?
Yes.
If so, will there be another cycle including another "war" in heaven?
Yes.
A new Savior?

Yes.

Brigham taught these things, if I recall correctly.

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In my random readings, I have run across two articles, one of which got me thinking women don't become Perdition - ever - and another which explicitly taught that women don't become Perdition - ever.

We don't know the gender of the fallen third, but it seems reasonable, from the above, that it did not include women. If we assume an initial distribution of male/female intelligences at 1:1 (supposing God made males and females from an initial neuter intelligence, perhaps), then there were, after the war in heaven, 3 female spirits to every male spirit. Given that ONLY males become Perdition, this life further reduces the male : female ratio among the potential exaltees.

Since, as we know, males and females must be welded together to make a whole human, as neither the lone male nor the lone female can be exalted without the other, and we also know that God has himself instituted polygamy - objections noted and dismissed - it would appear that one male can perform the husband role for multiple women.

Since neither lone males nor lone females can attain their potential without each other, and there is an extreme numerical imbalance between males and females, and one male can husband several women, polygamy seems on its face to be justified by a straightforward application of the pigeonhole principle.

Your theory neatly falls apart if one looks at the ratio of the male to female in human population and it is almost equal.

There are other major flaws in other of your a priori assumptions as well but the one I have noted is sufficient for now.

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Your theory neatly falls apart if one looks at the ratio of the male to female in human population and it is almost equal.

We have no evidence it has always been, neither always shall be, thus.

There are other major flaws in other of your a priori assumptions as well but the one I have noted is sufficient for now.

Don't be lazy - throw them up.
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I really don't think that is the issue.

It's not about the total number of both men and woman.

It's about the total number of both men and women who will receive a Celestial glory.

If there are more women than men, and I believe there will be, something will have to be done.

... if all the Celestial women want to enjoy the blessings of having children, and a husband.

You forget, there are three levels of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom and only the top level are allowed to be husband and wife(s). So what we need to know is what percentage of all the CK inhabitants are in the highest degree of glory and how many are in level 1 and 2. ??? Another interesting question would be: Since humans have a need for physical intimacy, does it follow that because of the lack of women in the Terestrial and Telestial there will be significantly higher homosexual activity?
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Since humans have a need for physical intimacy, does it follow that because of the lack of women in the Terestrial and Telestial there will be significantly higher homosexual activity?

We will no longer be human. So if sexual intimacy is to be expressed it would be like in the Cocoon...you know the part where they zap balls of sex energy at each other? :P

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I don't see a plausible alternative interpretation from you.

I do not think God commanded it. IMO, the historical evidence indicates polyamy to be very ungoldy in the way it was introduced. I think God did not command it at all and it was a HUGE mistake. And believing God commands it leads us to come up with silly justifications, like this thread, for something we really know is and was a bad thing but we need to try to make it ok because we fear if God did not command it Joseph really goofed.

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We will no longer be human. So if sexual intimacy is to be expressed it would be like in the Cocoon...you know the part where they zap balls of sex energy at each other? :P

Yeah, right.

Me and my wife will do it the old fashioned way.

You and whoeever can do what you want to do.

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