Jst Gen 50:29

[David Bokovoy]

I've been putting together some information on the first few chapters of Exodus and was struck by the fact that the JST reflects an interesting idea concerning Moses' name.

According to Joseph Smith's inspired revision of Genesis, God revealed to Joseph of Egypt that he would raise up a seer named Moses to deliver Israel from Egyptian bondage: â??For a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the kingâ??s daughter, and shall be called her sonâ? (JST Genesis 50:29).

At first reading, the statement "by this name [Moses] shall know that he is of thy house," might seem problematic. In reality, however, I believe that given the evidence, the idea presented in the JST makes perfect sense.

Notwithstanding the connection made in Exodus 2:10 between the name â??Mosesâ? and the Hebrew verb m

[Paul Ray]

Thank you for this information, but I still don't know how Moses' Egyptian name told him that he was from the house of Israel.

What does the [x] stand for? Where is the relation to Israel?

I would like to know what you are talking about.

[Confidential Informant]

Here, let me save all the critics some time by just cutting and pasting this response from another thread which is surely to be repreated here:

Dude, you are going to unbelievable lengths to try to find ways of making sense of something that Joseph Smith made up. Since Joseph Smith was using semitic religious concepts as his working environment, and there are connections between ancient semitic religion and ancient egyptian religion more than, say, ancient semitic religion and ancient Norwegian religion, if you seek hard enough, and look long enough, and allow yourself enough leeway, you will, and are, inevitably finding little things you can use to cobble together your story. But in the end, you're just going to be creating for yourself an elaborate virtual reality, for it is unreal.

Yep, that ought to 'bout cover it.

C.I.

[Paul Ray]

Yeah, but where is the beef? I'm ready to eat me some meat.

What is the truth in his story?

I still don't know what he was talking about when he explained the meaning of "Moses".

[USU78]

Thank you for this information, but I still don't know how Moses' Egyptian name told him that he was from the house of Israel.

What does the [x] stand for? Where is the relation to Israel?

I would like to know what you are talking about.

[x] = 0, a cipher.

Moses = son of the G-d without a name.

[David Bokovoy]

Thank you for this information, but I still don't know how Moses' Egyptian name told him that he was from the house of Israel.

In other words, the name Moses is an Egyptian name. Therefore, upon first reading the JST claim that â??by this name [Moses], he shall know that he is of thy [Josephâ??s] house [i.e. family],â? it might seem that the JST makes a mistake.

What does the [x] stand for? Where is the relation to Israel?

The [X] stands for the fact that Mosesâ?? name does not feature the name of an Egyptian god as a prefix. His name is therefore confusing in the sense that it means â??[the Egyptian God X] is born.â? Moses, by his very name, lacked the connection with the gods worshipped by the House of Pharaoh witnessed in such cognates as Ahmose, Ptahmose, Ramose, and Thotmose.

In considering these issues, I could see how the missing theophoric element in Moses' name could lead him to know that he was from the House of Joseph, which did not celebrate the birth of Ptah, Ra, Thut, etc.

I would like to know what you are talking about.

Hope that helps.

[Warship]

Very interesting.

[katherine the great]

That's interesting. Thanks for the info. I always kind of wondered how the name "Tuthmosis" could be related to "Moses."

[Chris Smith]

This JST passage makes at least as much sense if we assume the meaning suggested by Exodus 2:10: "I drew him out of the water." That's probably what Joseph was referring to when he penned this line, IMO.

[Sethbag]

By the same logic, he could have thought he was of any other people in the entire world that didn't worship the Egyptian gods. I don't think there's any evidence, at least not in the quotes you've given, that any Egyptian would have regarded the lack of any specific Egyptian diety's name as indicating that the bearer of the name Moses was of a people who didn't worship any of the Egyptian gods.

It would almost be like claiming that a man with the last name of Son would conclude that he was the result of a virgin birth, because there are also names like Johnson, Peterson, etc. which connote that the bearer of those names was a son of John, or a son of Peter, or at least descended from someone who was.

And thanks, CI, for that quote. Saved me at least a few minutes there.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello CaliforniaKid,

That's probably what Joseph was referring to when he penned this line, IMO.

This is exactly what I thought, and your suggestion may very well be correct.

I view the JST as an inspired workbook. I do not believe that the Prophet restored ancient texts written by biblical prophets. Speaking personally, the way I understand the primary religious benefit of the JST is that Joseph's work served as a revelatory guide.

Many of the sections found in the D&C, including section 76, derive directly from Josephâ??s revisionary efforts.

Therefore, when I first really thought about this statement, my initial thought was that Joseph was simply mistaken. The name is Egyptian, not Hebrew. I could see Joseph and Sidney trying to understand Exodus 2:10, which suggests that the daughter of Pharaoh gave Moses a name that reflected the Hebrew word m

[Paul Ray]

What you said helped me a little bit, David. But I don't see what I think you are seeing.

Based upon the fact that the text suggests that Moses received a name that reflects Hebrew, I could see Joseph and Sidney creating a Midrash in which Mosesâ?? Hebrew name led to his knowledge concerning his connection with Israel.

What part of the text suggests that Moses received a name that reflects Hebrew?

I'm now thinking that maybe the lack of a prefix for the name "moses" led him to ask some questions.

[SolarPowered]

Interesing...

That might explain why Moses was so interested in finding out the name of God during the burning bush experience.

(Edit: It is also interesting that Paul almost raised the same point at the same time as I was typing this. )

[David Bokovoy]

I don't think there's any evidence, at least not in the quotes you've given, that any Egyptian would have regarded the lack of any specific Egyptian diety's name as indicating that the bearer of the name Moses was of a people who didn't worship any of the Egyptian gods.

This is really way beyond what Iâ??m claiming.

I wouldnâ??t suggest that any Egyptian would have regarded the lack of a specific Egyptian deityâ??s name in Moses an indicator that the bearer of the name was of a people who didnâ??t worship any of the Egyptian gods. In fact, this assertion is demonstrably untrue.

At least two papyri from the time of Ramses II mention court officials with the name Moses.

I simply believe that pondering the missing theomorphic element could have led Moses to a series of questions that revealed his true identity.

[Zakuska]

Or it could also be a word play...

Moses was a Godless man.

[Paul Ray]

This is really way beyond what Iâ??m claiming.

I wouldnâ??t suggest that any Egyptian would have regarded the lack of a specific Egyptian deityâ??s name in Moses an indicator that the bearer of the name was of a people who didnâ??t worship any of the Egyptian gods. In fact, this assertion is demonstrably untrue.

At least two papyri from the time of Ramses II mention court officials with the name Moses.

I simply believe that pondering the missing theomorphic element could have led Moses to a series of questions that revealed his true identity.

Okay, I think I see what you were saying, now.

The fact that the name of "moses" wasn't preceeded by the name of God, or a god, led Moses to question who God was and/or what God he should worship, because Moses would have realized the word "moses" in his name should have been preceeded by the name of a god, or God, who he should worship.

... and that is what the Joseph Smith was referring to.

... Moses was led, through the lack of answers, to question and find out who he, and/or the Egyptians, and/or Joseph from Egypt, and/or the Hebrew people were, and/or what they believed. And through a series of questions, asking and pondering, he later learned, from God, who he should worship.

That makes sense to me. I'll ask God if it's true. Thank you, David.

[Zakuska]

Perhaps...

[x] was the name of his God.

Was not Israels Gods name unephable [sic]?

Acts 17: 23

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

So those Clerks who's name also where '[x] Moses' where actually all Hebrews.

[Hammer]

Here, let me save all the critics some time by just cutting and pasting this response from another thread which is surely to be repreated here:

Yep, that ought to 'bout cover it.

C.I.

You wish.

[Hammer]

This JST passage makes at least as much sense if we assume the meaning suggested by Exodus 2:10: "I drew him out of the water." That's probably what Joseph was referring to when he penned this line, IMO.

This is what has been assumed for decades. This new insight is very cool. I think it has a lot of merrit.

By the same logic, he could have thought he was of any other people in the entire world that didn't worship the Egyptian gods. I don't think there's any evidence, at least not in the quotes you've given, that any Egyptian would have regarded the lack of any specific Egyptian diety's name as indicating that the bearer of the name Moses was of a people who didn't worship any of the Egyptian gods.

It would almost be like claiming that a man with the last name of Son would conclude that he was the result of a virgin birth, because there are also names like Johnson, Peterson, etc. which connote that the bearer of those names was a son of John, or a son of Peter, or at least descended from someone who was.

And thanks, CI, for that quote. Saved me at least a few minutes there.

Except he was of a pharoh's household. It would be very obvious to those of that day that something was lacking.

[Sethbag]

I'm unconvinced that Moses would think that his name "should" have had a god's name in front of it, merely because some other names were formed from the name of a god and a variant of the same root as his name. The existence of other Egyptians named Moses shows that the name was common enough. It's just as likely that this name was accepted and viewed as complete as it was, and nobody was confused about the lack of a god's name, nor expected that there would be one.

Except he was of a pharoh's household. It would be very obvious to those of that day that something was lacking.

Obvious that something was lacking? How can you justify this statement? We've already been provided with evidence that a number of other egyptians, including officials in the courts of pharoahs, had the name of Moses. As such, it was a name that should have just been seen and accepted as a name in its own right, and not assumed to be a "broken" name that "should" have had something else as part of it.

I know a guy named Chad. Do you suppose he ever sits around wondering why his name is missing "wick" at the end of it, in light of the fact that someone else is named Chadwick?

[Paul Ray]

I'm unconvinced that Moses would think that his name "should" have had a god's name in front of it, merely because some other names were formed from the name of a god and a variant of the same root as his name. The existence of other Egyptians named Moses shows that the name was common enough. It's just as likely that this name was accepted and viewed as complete as it was, and nobody was confused about the lack of a god's name, nor expected that there would be one.

I edited my post to say and/or... on all of those issues.

I think the key point is the idea that he would have thought about that portion of his name and wondered what it meant, thinking maybe that his name should've and/or could've actually meant something, at some point, because he was a prince of Egypt.

Many princes of Egypt, or at least Pharoahs, had a name that referred to their God.

And btw, the name of the Pharoah at that time was Rameses, right?

Is the suffix "meses" another form of "moses"???

Interesting thoughts.

p.s. Here is an interesting link I found:

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/moses.html

[David Bokovoy]

I'm unconvinced that Moses would think that his name "should" have had a god's name in front of it, merely because some other names were formed from the name of a god and a variant of the same root as his name.

Perhaps your skepticism derives from a lack of awareness regarding the significance of the theomorphic element in the ancient Near East. Itâ??s actually quite uncommon to find a name without a divinity of some sort attached to it. Choose almost any name in the Bible, for instance, and you will find references to El, Yah, Yahu, and even Baal.

Though examples of the Egyptian name msy appear without a theomorphic element, itâ??s non-attestation would certainly be enough to spark an interest. Simply consider how odd it would have been for Moses, the great Lawgiver of Israel, to have had the name Ramoses, i.e. â??Ra is born.â?

Clearly, in this case, Mosesâ?? name would have lead to a special connection with the Egyptian sun god. The fact that Moses did not have this or any other connection with the gods of Egypt is clearly significant. â??And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house.â? If Moses had had an Egyptian theomorphic element in his name, how could he have ever known that he was of the house of IsraEL?

Nope, Iâ??m afraid the JST provides what appears from my perspective to be another very inspired insight.

I know a guy named Chad. Do you suppose he ever sits around wondering why his name is missing "wick" at the end of it, in light of the fact that someone else is named Chadwick?

You're comparing apples with oranges. Our society doesn't place nearly the emphasis upon the meaning associated with names that we see manifested throughout the ancient Near East, where such things really carry considerable signifcance.

[Sethbag]

David, what about the fact that there were other guys named Moses? Don't you think that this implies that the name was considered fairly normal? Why do you suppose that people would think as much as you imply they would about a name that was already considered normal as-is?

[katherine the great]

I think this explanation makes as much sense as any other. Moses would have been given his name by his Egyptian mother, not his Hebrew parents so looking for an Egyptian meaning would make more sense than a Hebrew or Phoenician one.

[Chris Smith]

I think this explanation makes as much sense as any other. Moses would have been given his name by his Egyptian mother, not his Hebrew parents so looking for an Egyptian meaning would make more sense than a Hebrew or Phoenician one.

Seems odd that his Egyptian mother wou;dn't have given him a theophoric name, though.