"lying For The Lord"

[smac97]

This phrase, "lying for the Lord" is frequently attributed to Mormons.

Dallin H. Oaks, Apostle, "Gospel Teachings About Lying", Clark Memorandum BYU (Spring 1994 pg. 16-17). In this Oaks acknowledges 'Lying for the Lord' by early Mormon leaders. Joseph Smith lied about many of his activities and the overwhelming historical evidence forced Oaks to admit the lies. Among Mormons and former Mormons it has become known as "Lying for the Lord".

http://www.exmormon.org/lying.htm

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways..."Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics...

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

Lying for the Lord.

Mormons purposely lie in order to better themselves with "God" (I'm not sure which). This intentional slandering of others also almost guarantees them a spot in "heaven." (It makes perfect sense, the more you lie, the better the person you are!)

http://schadenfreude.cogitox.com/archives/000487.html

As for the Mormon missionaries, they will spoon-fed you a carefully orchestrated series of six "discussions" that will not include any of their more precious "truths" -- they will say, if asked, that it is a matter of "milk before meat" or they may call it "lying for the Lord."

http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/bible/mormonfacts2.html

Many Mormons believe â??lying for the Lordâ? appropriately keeps LDS matters sacred and unsullied by public criticism.

Remarkably, at last Julyâ??s LDS Sunstone Symposium, Ryan Wimmer discussed (in â??Truth-Telling and Mormonismâ?) how â??lying for the Lordâ? resembles the Shiâ??a Muslim concept, Al-Taqiyah -- lying to â??dodge the threat,â? or save oneâ??s life or faith.

http://www.jg-tc.com/articles/2006/11/15/f...eligion0001.txt

In her book, American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 (p. 212), author Sally Denton makes the following claim:

It would be part of the larger historical tragedy of Mountain Meadows that the outside world would level collective blame and guilt at Mormons in general. For there were untold numbers of faithful and believing Mormons profoundly disturbed by the church's role in the slaughter and the subsequent dissembling, which they termed "lying for the Lord."

Denton provides no citation for this quote.

This article purports to be the transcript of a fireside talk given by Elder Oaks on September 12, 1993. He mentions "lying for the Lord" in this way:

Some have suggested that it is morally permissible to lie to promote a good cause. For example, some Mormons have taught or implied that lying is okay if you are lying for the Lord. There is ancient precedent for this argument, and it will not surprise you to know that Professor Hugh Nibley brings it forward and condemns it...

And here:

I suppose most mortals employ some exaggeration and a little of what someone called â??innocent after-mindedness.â? But does this mean we condone deliberate and important misrepresentations of fact in a circumstance in which they are clearly intended to be believed and relied upon? Never! Lying is sinful, as it has always been, and there is no exempt category for so-called â??lying for the Lord.â? Lying is simply outside the range of permitted or condoned conduct by Latter-day Saintsâ??members or leaders.

This phrase, "lying for the Lord," is being attributed to Mormons, and the attribution is made in the context of approving of "lying for the Lord."

I have never heard an observant Latter-day Saint use this phrase or an equivalent thereof, nor have I heard an observant Latter-day Saint approve of the underlying concept.

-Smac

[HiJolly]

I have heard this before, and I believe it was in the context of the Senate hearings on polygamy. I'm not sure about that, though.

"It is good to always tell the truth, but not always to tell

the whole of what we know."

-- Apostle Abraham H. Cannon

HiJolly

[Deborah]

This phrase, "lying for the Lord," is being attributed to Mormons, and the attribution is made in the context of approving of "lying for the Lord."

I have never heard an observant Latter-day Saint use this phrase or an equivalent thereof, nor have I heard an observant Latter-day Saint approve of the underlying concept.

-Smac

They will twist the words and the facts to fit their agenda, once again not considering context or the big picture. Someday those who are lying to discredit and destroy the church will get their due.

[freakin a man]

This phrase, "lying for the Lord" is frequently attributed to Mormons.

In her book, American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 (p. 212), author Sally Denton makes the following claim:

Denton provides no citation for this quote.

This article purports to be the transcript of a fireside talk given by Elder Oaks on September 12, 1993. He mentions "lying for the Lord" in this way:

And here:

This phrase, "lying for the Lord," is being attributed to Mormons, and the attribution is made in the context of approving of "lying for the Lord."

I have never heard an observant Latter-day Saint use this phrase or an equivalent thereof, nor have I heard an observant Latter-day Saint approve of the underlying concept.

-Smac

There might be cases where it would be proper to lie however they are extreme exceptions. Generally when I view the term it reminds me of Anti-Mormons who will do anything to further their agenda. They will make false claims about the LDS faith in order to make it look bad. They will manipulate or alter quotes from LDS to put meanings in their mouth that they never really had. I find the "lying for Jesus" to be normal in anti-mormon material.

[Scott Lloyd]

Ironically, those who distort Elder Oaks's meaning or attribute the phrase to Mormons without documentation are themselves lying. Taking quotes out of context, slanting, or distortion are themselves forms of deception just as contemptible as an overt lie.

[mickisdaddy]

Typical, an anti-Mormon site quoting an article that talks about twisting the truth and that is just what they are doing referencing this article.

Take a look at the first article Clark Memorandum Spring 1994

The pages referenced talk about some leaders lying, but does not say that Joseph Smith lied about anything. It says that Joseph Smith withheld some information until it was needed to be revealed.

mickisdaddy

[cksalmon]

I don't know that I've ever seen the phrase "lying for the Lord" used positively in an LDS work.

I suppose the concept comes from issues like Joseph Smith's (oft-quoted) denunciation of plural marriage when, in fact, he was already practicing it:

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of thisâ?¦I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking meâ?¦What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411)

I've seen some argue that JS was referring to his early marriage only--not the present state of affairs, but that doesn't seem to be borne out by the fuller context.

He notes that he was accused of polygamy after being married "scarcely five minutes." This is obviously hyperbole, but I take his point that he was accused of plural marriage at an early stage of his marriage.

JS and Emma were married on January 18, 1827.

If I read the history correctly, William Law did not make public JS's polygamy until sometime between April 18, 1844 and June 8, 1844.

So, JS is writing the passage quoted above after Law made that public revelation.

JS writes (in the present tense; ~1844), "I am quite tired of the fools asking meâ?¦What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." It would not seem that JS is referring to the early years of his marriage before he'd begun practicing plural marriage here. He's responding to Law's 1844 announcement.

Moreover, he then states: "I am the same man [in 1844], and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago [of practicing plural marriage] . . . and I can prove them all [those, including Law in 1844, who accused him of plural marriage] perjurers [or, liars]."

It seems obvious that JS lied at this time about his polygamous practices. He didn't term it "lying for the Lord." But, if I'm not mistaken, it has been suggested on multiple occasions by various LDS writers that JS could not reveal the practice until the Lord allowed/commanded him to do so. That would seem, euphemistically, to suggest lying about polygamy until the right time arrived.

Not trying to be offensive.

Best to all.

CKS

[Olavarria]

I lie all the time:

girl friend: honey, do i look fat? me:no baby, your lookin fine.

[structurecop]

I lie all the time:

girl friend: honey, do i look fat? me:no baby, your lookin fine.

Hopefully your girlfriend doesn't read your FAIR postings...

[Jerubaal]

When i was over at the "Concerned" Christians forum, I think I was accused of "Lying for the Lord" at least a dozen or so times. Simply for telling such blatant falsehoods such as "There is archaeological evidence that disagrees with the Bible" or "No, Mormons don't believe that"

Sheesh.

[Arlon James]

Hopefully your girlfriend doesn't read your FAIR postings...

you beat me to it, I was thinking the exact same thing........ tread lightly Amun

[Arlon James]

When i was over at the "Concerned" Christians forum, I think I was accused of "Lying for the Lord" at least a dozen or so times. Simply for telling such blatant falsehoods such as "There is archaeological evidence that disagrees with the Bible" or "No, Mormons don't believe that"

Sheesh.

One (of many) of my favorite examples of 'lying for the Lord' is when I hear so called 'concerned Christians' patronize me by saying 'we love mormons' while blatantly lying about LDS teachings! Bullsqueeze, I say.

[lovestory0530]

I lie all the time:

girl friend: honey, do i look fat? me:no baby, your lookin fine.

WOW!!! Not many men would admit to that statement, that is funny. You should watch your back from your girlfriend now. Us girls have ears and eyes in many places.

[lovestory0530]

Does this count??

They say they are protesting because they love us and want us to be saved. I believe that would be "lying for the Lord."

[Avatar4321]

Does this count??

They say they are protesting because they love us and want us to be saved. I believe that would be "lying for the Lord."

They are definately lying no doubt, but i dont think they are doing it for the Lord. I think they are lying for the devil.

BTW if thats your pic as your avatar you are a cutie.

[Hammer]

The Lord judges us by our hearts. I wonder if anti's would consider the God of Abraham a lier because he had Abraham take his only son out to a place with a specific command to sacrifice this son to Him.

Then He supposedly changed His mind after finding Abraham was willing to do it. Well if the God of Abraham is all knowing, wasn't it a lie to tell the man to do something He had no intention of seeing through?

Hmmmmm lies? I think the lie is in the minds of those accusing. Those who do not use understanding first, do not have the kind of hearts Christ would back. Therefore it is an oxymoron or just moron-ic to call anything lying for Jesus.

[kantgomo]

Does this count??

They say they are protesting because they love us and want us to be saved. I believe that would be "lying for the Lord."

Does this guy not realize that he too is one of the persons of which his sign speaks?

[Thinking]

The “lying for the Lord” issue always catches my attention because of an experience I had on my mission. My companion and I came across a pamphlet (published by the Jehovah’s Witnesses) which contained an article about the Church. There were distorted facts and blatant lies which were very critical of the Church. We happened to meet up with some JW’s (I later found out that they sought us out) and during our discussion I asked one of them, “I know personally that some of the things printed in this pamphet are false. Why would your church print lies about my church?” He said, “Because we have the truth!”

What!?

I remember clearly thinking to myself, “I’m glad that my church doesn’t have to tell lies.”

During the times when the Church was in Nauvoo, there were several statements printed in the “Times & Seasons” (the official newspaper of the Church) which stated that the Church was not practicing plural marriage. FARMS’ scholars Richard Lloyd Anderson & Scott H. Faulring classify these statements as HONEST DENIALS. “Defensive public statements, in which participants HONESTLY DENIED that the church believed or practiced an immoral system of spiritual wifery, were made in a serious attempt to avert hostilities generated by misunderstandings fed by apostates and anti-Mormons.” (The Prophet Joseph Smith and His Plural Wives, Anderson & Faulring, FARMS, 1998)

This is the question which I pose to the boards: What is the difference between a “lie” and an “honest denial”

[freakin a man]

What is the difference between a â??lieâ? and an â??honest denialâ?

For the most part they are the same. The question is are all lies bad? If telling the truth could lead to violence, someone getting physically hurt, and things like that, then its probably better to lie than tell the truth. Some people just can't handle the truth and for these people, withholding the truth from them is desired because they are not mature and not able to process and use that truth in a constructive way.

[Pepcigirl]

Just a small point. Lying is spoken about quite often in the scriptures.

For example:

"Psalm 101:

He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: He that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

Proverbs 12:22

Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Isaiah 63:8

For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

Colossians 3:9 [1-11]

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sourcers, and idolaters, AND ALL LIERS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 Nephi 9:34

Wo unto the lier, for he shall be thrust down into hell.

D&C 63:17

Wherefore, I the Lord hath said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, AND ALL LIERS, and whosoever LOVETH AND MAKETH A LIE, and the whoremonger, and the sourcerer, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the secon death."

The scriptures are very clear on lying and the consequences of it.

[galstone2003]

im thinking to be christ like so i dont belive lying is ok.

[JRF]

The problem with the phrase "lying for the Lord" is that it makes it look like lying is an acceptable part of Mormon theology, which it most certainly is not!

This is just part of the pattern of anti-Mormon activity:

1. Find an isolated example of a negative behavior or belief (e.g. lying), or make one up;

2. Then assert that this is common behavior among Mormons (or Mormon leaders);

3. Next assert that it is actually central to being a Mormon;

4. Finally, conclude, "aren't those Mormons awful!"

5. Repeat

Have any of our church leaders ever lied? I have no doubt that it has occasionally happened. Is it right? No. Is it common practice? No. Is it part of our theology? Absolutely not.

JRF

[JRF]

Another thought:

Is lying ever justified? I can think of some cases when lying might be morally acceptable:

Examples:

Gestapo: Any Jews hiding out in your attic? We want to kill them!

Good Dutch family: (Lying) Of course there are no Jews here in this house!

Mob: Is Joseph here? We want to tar and feather him!

Emma: (Lying) No he is out of town right now.

[Dan Vogel]

Smac,

This phrase, "lying for the Lord," is being attributed to Mormons, and the attribution is made in the context of approving of "lying for the Lord."

I have never heard an observant Latter-day Saint use this phrase or an equivalent thereof, nor have I heard an observant Latter-day Saint approve of the underlying concept.

"Lying for the Lord" is a phrase usually used in reference to post-Manifesto polygamy. B. CARMON HARDY, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage. (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1992) even has an appendix by that name.

Lying to government officials about the secret continuacne of polygamy after the 1890 manifesto was considered a lesser sin than disobeying God's command in D&C 132.

[latterdayteancum]

I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of thisâ?¦I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking meâ?¦What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411)

I do believe there are a couple things worth pointing out in this quote.

First, "spiritual wifeism" is not the term used to denote Celestial polygamous marriages. What Joseph Smith is referring to is the practice of John C. Bennett to tell women that they were married spiritually in order to have intercourse with them. This is important because Joseph Smith is correct for denying this claim.

Second, to leaders of the Church and its Prophet, Joseph Smith wasn't committing adultery by participating in Celestial polygamous marriages. All felt Joseph has received a revelation from God to restore the practice. This is also important because in context Joseph Smith is correct in denying he committed adultery. He was married to his polygamous wives.

By recognizing these two points this seemingly indicting statement doesn't seem so powerful. The only part of the statement that could be interpreted a lie is when Joseph says: "having seven wives, when I can only find one."

I don't know if this is a denial of polygamy or not. I don't believe it is very clear.